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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 287

post #8581 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

And some of Amazon's marketplace sellers have dropped the price to $6499.

Well, you snooze you lose... price is back up to $6999 (at the time I'm writing this).
post #8582 of 9429
^I'm still seeing it available from Beach Camera, but only one. Hardly low enough to make me jump (or many others I would imagine).
post #8583 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weboh View Post

But the Plasma TV factory was in Japan!!
No it wasn't. They built the plasma panel modules there, but they manufactured the TVs in Mexico.
post #8584 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

The yields cited have to be a 2K number. The question is how much worse is the 4K number and that depends on what is driving the current 30% 2K failure rate. If it is primarily the IGZO backplane, then 4K is going to need a significant premium but if it is vapor deposition, then LG will be able to bring down the prices rapidly.

Regardless though, I expect a big premium when the first 4K OLED's debut.

This makes sense... but....
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

CNET says that the current version of LG's 55" OLED will be on sale through mid-year.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-6482_7-57618638/lg-slashes-curved-oled-tv-price-in-half/

The way I read that -- and I admit I am reading between the lines, which I have a better-than-average track record of doing -- is that they are keeping the 2K model until mid year and then killing it in favor of the 4K models.

If this is correct -- and yes, it's a big if.

1) I can't see them raising the prices of the replacement models. Sales would actually fall if they did. $7000 still sounds like a ridiculous amount for a 55-inch TV.
2) It suggests the bigger yield problems are still on the vapor depo side and not on the IGZO side. It's worth noting that while there are probably issues with refining IGZO, it should become very straightforward sometime soon (from a yield perspective). The vapor depo step is a mess, however, and will likely never be ideally. They will tweak the process and get better at it. But it will always be a weakness of this manufacturing method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

They only hard sales numbers I have is that in Korea they are selling around 100 units a month. So the Korean market is what, maybe 10% the world market? So total guess, they are moving 1000 units a month worldwide.

I dunno, sytech. But that sounds believable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weboh View Post

You don't think Japanese labor costs had anything to do with it?

No, module labor costs are a tiny portion of flat-panel TV costs. TV assembly wasn't even done in Japan for most markets. And, besides, the yen has been falling under Abenomics. So, no, it wasn't labor.

The killer moment was this: Once sales started to slip, factory utilization went below an acceptable threshold. That creates a cost problem. You can't run the fab at 20% utilization and make money. You can't run the fab at higher utilization but only for a few months and make money. Both create impossible labor-scheduling/cost issues even with low labor. And they create supply-chain problems/balance-sheet issues, too.

The math stopped working below a certain capacity. Plasma's demise killed plasma.
post #8585 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The way I read that -- and I admit I am reading between the lines, which I have a better-than-average track record of doing -- is that they are keeping the 2K model until mid year and then killing it in favor of the 4K models.

If this is correct -- and yes, it's a big if.

1) I can't see them raising the prices of the replacement models. Sales would actually fall if they did. $7000 still sounds like a ridiculous amount for a 55-inch TV.
2) It suggests the bigger yield problems are still on the vapor depo side and not on the IGZO side. It's worth noting that while there are probably issues with refining IGZO, it should become very straightforward sometime soon (from a yield perspective). The vapor depo step is a mess, however, and will likely never be ideally. They will tweak the process and get better at it. But it will always be a weakness of this manufacturing method.

LG announced a 2nd generation 1080p set at CES. It is supposed to be a streamlined set with fewer components and lower power consumption.

I cant guarantee that they'll launch it but I'm also not sure why their plans would have changed in the last month. I hope you are right though about LG's primary problems being with vapor deposition because I think that the quick move to 4K is likely going to be OLED's biggest obstacle.
post #8586 of 9429

Then, the value of the Yen, plus assembly costs which is most of it is what did it. Panasonic is now more interested more in durable goods. I think their interest in getting out of the Japanese TV making market was supreme. LG would have left the market if it was plasma undoing plasma. There are still fundamental burn-in problems with Panasonic's TVs too, but their TVs have not went down in price before selling through. And I am, of course, skeptical of OLED. The indicators aren't obvious, and plasma TVs will likely persist to exist past 2015, despite the anti-hype.


Edited by Weboh - 2/10/14 at 7:53pm
post #8587 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weboh View Post

But the Plasma TV factory was in Japan!!
No it wasn't. They built the plasma panel modules there, but they manufactured the TVs in Mexico.


The screens were in Japan? Interesting, and I am surprised by the fact that Mexico was used to assemble PDPs. I wonder if LG and Samsung use Chinese or Mexican labor as of now.

post #8588 of 9429
Whatever's the cheapest you bet they do.
post #8589 of 9429
post #8590 of 9429

Yes, but Chinese or Mexican labor? I don't know which.

post #8591 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weboh View Post


The screens were in Japan? Interesting, and I am surprised by the fact that Mexico was used to assemble PDPs. I wonder if LG and Samsung use Chinese or Mexican labor as of now.

I have a (9) year old PDP that was made in Japan and a (7) year old PDP that was assembled in America. Both displays, each w/more than 10,000 hours of operation, still render a very nice picture.

Now, don't get me started on H1B visa foreign workers.
post #8592 of 9429
Members might be interested to know Kateeva has a link to Rogo's Forbes article on their website.

http://kateeva.com/news-events/in-the-news/
post #8593 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Members might be interested to know Kateeva has a link to Rogo's Forbes article on their website.

http://kateeva.com/news-events/in-the-news/
Great article. Well written.
Can other tv manufactures make there own printing method without infringing on kateeva patents? It would seem like Samsung with all there struggling would do something unless the don't want to pay up for kateeva tech and develop there own thinking they can save money.
post #8594 of 9429
Panasonic has purportedly developed their own method already. A lot of good it's done them given all they've delivered are prototypes.
post #8595 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weboh View Post

LG would have left the market if it was plasma undoing plasma.

LG will likely leave it soon enough. And your conclusion is in error, anyway. Just because someone leaves first doesn't mean the entire industry isn't suffering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason626 View Post

Great article. Well written.

Thanks!
Quote:
Can other tv manufactures make there own printing method without infringing on kateeva patents? It would seem like Samsung with all there struggling would do something unless the don't want to pay up for kateeva tech and develop there own thinking they can save money.

Others can certainly develop printing, but if Kateeva has an edge, there is no reason to. Let's clarify something: When you build a fab for anything (chips, displays, whatever), you buy equipment from other manufacturers. You don't make everything in house. In semiconductors, for example, Applied Materials, KLA Tencor, many others sell equipment to companies to build fabs. That's the business Kateeva is trying to be in for OLED displays.

You would either (a) buy their stuff (b) buy someone else's (c) develop your own only if the market offered nothing attractive enough. Now, to date LG and Samsung have had to roll their own OLED mfg. solutions, but even there all the parts are surely not sourced in house. For one thing, the OLED materials are not.

Kateeva probably has some patents that make it hard to do things the way they do, but others can develop competing printable OLED fabricating machines.

Incidentally, it's no coincidence that Kateeva just opened in Korea and the world's largest OLED makers are in Korea. The company wants to do business with them.
post #8596 of 9429
More details on how LG flexible OLED displays are made:

http://www.oled-info.com/lg-display-details-their-flexible-oled-process-expects-flexible-oled-market-reach-41-billion-2020
Quote:
LGD explains the structure of their flexible OLED panel (see below). It is based on a plastic (polyimide) substrate as we already know, and LG gives some more information about their Face Seal method which was discussed before but with very little details.

Created with GIMP
So it turns out that Face Seal (developed by LG themselves) is a multi-layered organic and in-organic film. LG's scheme (shown above) also explains why those plastic OLEDs are thinner than glass-based OLEDs, with the Face-Seal film encapsulating over the organic materials directly.

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75

LGD also shows us the manufacturing process (see above). They first coat the polyimide on a a glass sheet. The TFTs are formed on the polyimide, and then the organic layers and the encapsulation layers are deposited. Finally, the glass is removed (delaminated) which makes the panel flexible. LG also adds a "back plate" to the flexible panel to make it stronger, it's not clear what that back plate is exactly.

Edited by coolscan - 2/12/14 at 4:55am
post #8597 of 9429
I don't know if I understand this right; Seems to me a Dr. Jorge Guillermo Dominguez Chavez, researcher at the Faculty of Bioanalysis UV at Mexico's Universidad Veracruzana developed a new OLED emitter molecule that can produce both Red, Green and Blue colors.

These so-called multicromoforico molecules may enable simpler OLED material fabrication.


Does this mean that in the future instead of three separate RGB pixels, it will be possible to have one RGB pixel emitting the whole color spectrum?

From Spanish vis google translate;
There is also a YouTube video in the original link explaining further, but unfortunately only in Spanish.

UV Researchers develop a molecule capable of producing the three colors needed to detonate the color range within the OLED diodes. This novel development is far to the way that the organic coloring emitting diodes, since currently such technology requires the excitation of electrons of various organic molecules, which expose the green, red and blue color (RGB color system) to generate luminescence.

But Dr. Jorge Guillermo Dominguez Chavez, researcher at the Faculty of Bioanalysis UV, seeks to obtain a system called multicromofórico, ie the creation of a single molecule to emit three colors RGB system without the need to synthesize three separate molecules. That development will achieve energy savings which will contribute to the new OLED-based technologies, such as flexible displays, extend their operating time.

Multicromofórica synthesizing a molecule could provide an organic diode capable of emitting the entire color spectrum. This is possible because the UV experts developed a system that can change the desired color (red, green or blue) without the need to chemically alter the molecule.

Dominguez Chavez said: "For an RGB LED has to synthesize a compound different for each color. We employ a single molecule capable of changing its color through the addition of small chromophoric molecules that bind to the host, through supramolecular interactions ".
post #8598 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Does this mean that in the future instead of three separate RGB pixels, it will be possible to have one RGB pixel emitting the whole color spectrum?
Hopefully - this is one of the big advantages projectors have over flat panels. (single-chip DLPs in particular, as there are no convergence issues)
post #8599 of 9429
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weboh View Post

LG would have left the market if it was plasma undoing plasma.
LG will likely leave it soon enough. And your conclusion is in error, anyway. Just because someone leaves first doesn't mean the entire industry isn't

The entire flat panel industry is supposedly suffering, so your conclusion is bunk. Good point, nonetheless. But to say Panasonic didn't want to sell car-parts and appliances instead is a total misunderstanding of their economics. Everyone thought LG would be the next one to give, and it has turned out to be a false prophecy. Samsung would be the first to give after successfully killing LG. Not even close yet.

post #8600 of 9429
A number of people have posted regarding a particular price where they would buy an OLED TV. My question is if the LG 55" OLED TV by December this year were priced at $4500 for 2K or $7500 for 4K, would you buy it and if so, which one? Assume it's curved and I already know those of you who will never ever buy a curved set won't buy it.
post #8601 of 9429
I would purchase the 4K model personally however I'm not opposed to the 1080p either $4500 would be reasonable for myself, however if it was wall mountable I would definitely jump on it. I would pay $6500 for a 1080p 65inch oled if were available.
post #8602 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Panasonic has purportedly developed their own method already. A lot of good it's done them given all they've delivered are prototypes.

This is the reason I am not holding out much hope for Kateeva and OLED in general. It seems like Sony and Panasonic have been trying various things for a decade to get viable yields for OLED with no luck. They even tried the printing method. So now comes along Kateeva and with the addition of the sealed nitrogen chamber to reduce defects, they have claimed success. I really hope it is true, but the fact neither Sony nor Panasonic figured it out is reason for concern. Kateeva could wind up being a modern day Spatialight. Like when they claimed advancement in LCOS yields when Phillips and other electronic giants could not.
post #8603 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weboh View Post

The entire flat panel industry is supposedly suffering, so your conclusion is bunk.

We'll agree to disagree. Feel free to put your track record here up against mine anytime.
Quote:
Everyone thought LG would be the next one to give, and it has turned out to be a false prophecy.

Apparently, not everyone thought that. I never even think about LG plasma at all. I always presumed Panasonic would give up first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

This is the reason I am not holding out much hope for Kateeva and OLED in general. It seems like Sony and Panasonic have been trying various things for a decade to get viable yields for OLED with no luck.

Kateeva looked a the problem with different eyes and came up with very different solutions. Those solutions basically never occurred to Panasonic and Sony.
Quote:
So now comes along Kateeva and with the addition of the sealed nitrogen chamber to reduce defects, they have claimed success.

Kateeva looked at why printing fails. And it deciding that having nearly inert nitrogen in a closed system that was moisture free was the solution. Again, this idea never occurred to Panasonic or Sony, which basically tried to advance methods that have gotten nowhere for 10 years.
Quote:
Kateeva could wind up being a modern day Spatialight. Like when they claimed advancement in LCOS yields when Phillips and other electronic giants could not.

It could, but LCOS was a solution in search of a problem. Projection was already a dead tech by the time the LCOS revolution was supposed to somehow resurrect it. Why was that going to happen?

The projector industry is in dire straits, too, by the way. It's banking on personal and pico projectors (which are tiny price and tiny margin) to make up for the fact that nearly all of the rest of the market has (or will) disappear.

Just check this out...

Forecast for 2012:
Pacific Media Associates Forecasts 31% Growth Rate for Worldwide Projector Shipments in 2012 (to 12.4 million)

Oops...
Pacific Media Finds Worldwide Projector Market Neared 10 Million Units in 2011

But, hey, we'll grow in 2012, right?
Pacific Media Associates Expects Worldwide Projector Market to Top 11 Million Units in 2012

Oops!
PMA Reports Projector Market Hit 9.5 Million in 2012

But hey, we'll grow in 2013... I mean, oops, we won't grow....
Worldwide Projector Market to Hit 9.5 Million Units in 2013

Looking forward to the final numbers next week or so....
post #8604 of 9429
The Chinese will save us rogo! smile.gif
I say that as a happy home theatre projector owner, who hopes to upgrade to a 4k projector system when all the dust settles.
post #8605 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech 

This is the reason I am not holding out much hope for Kateeva and OLED in general. It seems like Sony and Panasonic have been trying various things for a decade to get viable yields for OLED with no luck. They even tried the printing method. So now comes along Kateeva and with the addition of the sealed nitrogen chamber to reduce defects, they have claimed success. I really hope it is true, but the fact neither Sony nor Panasonic figured it out is reason for concern. Kateeva could wind up being a modern day Spatialight. Like when they claimed advancement in LCOS yields when Phillips and other electronic giants could not.

Keep in mind that the co-inventer of OLED is tech chief at Kateeva. All that Sony and Panasonic concluded is that for the time being affordable OLED is out of the question.This is also what H.S. Kim from Samsung concluded. Kateeva finding a solution does not mean there will be cheap inkjet printing TVs next year or two years from now..
post #8606 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Kateeva finding a solution does not mean there will be cheap inkjet printing TVs next year or two years from now..
And if a solution means cheaper OLEDs will be available 3 years from now, it's not obvious that enough people will want to buy them 3 years from now. Because LCD-LED will have moved on, also.
post #8607 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Keep in mind that the co-inventer of OLED is tech chief at Kateeva. All that Sony and Panasonic concluded is that for the time being affordable OLED is out of the question.This is also what H.S. Kim from Samsung concluded. Kateeva finding a solution does not mean there will be cheap inkjet printing TVs next year or two years from now..

The pivotal question here is with the Kateeva process, will that drop cost for manufacturers to the level that they can be competitive.
post #8608 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

The pivotal question here is with the Kateeva process, will that drop cost for manufacturers to the level that they can be competitive.

A printable OLED with good yields means we can start projecting the end of LCD's.
post #8609 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

A printable OLED with good yields means we can start projecting the end of LCD's.

On this we completely agree. The timetable would still be long-ish due to lead times and the sheer amount of LCDs out there, but we could see it.
post #8610 of 9429
Does anybody know whether the new LG UltraHD OLED's are going to support the Rec 2020 color space? A quick Google search doesnt pick up any info either way.
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