OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 32

Panasonic was one of the companies that made the APDC which created the FPD benchmark and from what I read they used the same test material in their demonstrations that HD Guru uses. As such it does sound like Panasonic used the FPD benchmark in their demonstration though I do not know if they used a tracking camera system with it.



The results of the FPD benchmark do not need to be 100% accurate to be useful. As such I would disagree with your opinion that without a tracking camera system the results of the FPD benchmark are "almost useless".



xrox, where did you read that the FPD benchmark was designed only to be used with a tracking camera system? Also does the APDC provide instructions for using the FPD benchmark without the use of a tracking camera system? It just think you should know that before you state that HD Guru and other reviewers are incorrectly using the FPD benchmark. Also note that the FPD benchmark was mailed out in in the Japanese AV Review magazine as a "necessary item for the AV fan".

I actually have the journals by APDC and Panasonic and many other researchers on motion resolution measurements. Panasonic has used both the visual (subjective) test and the APDC pursuit camera (objective) test. This photo shows Panasonic measuring a 65 Vierra using the APDC method with a pursuit camera.




Well then we disagree. Note that I also disagree with Panasonic conclusion that the visual motion resolution test is accurate and robust. Poor science IMO. To get at least some accuracy in the visual test there needs to be a standard viewing distance in an attempt to equalize perceived scroll speed since the SAH effect depends on retinal velocity. Also, there needs to be numerous viewers and the data needs to be averaged. For instance each measurement should be taken at 1H distance (H=height of screen) to ensure perceived scroll speed normalization. There is a paper on this very topic. IMO the APDC method is far more robust and eliminates subjectivity making it possible to compare results from various sources and various screen sizes and resolutions. It essentially mimics human visual system perception without the subjective variations. Far better test IMO.


I don't recall that I said as such. What I said is using your naked eye is a poor method IMO. Actually further reading seems to suggest that the FPD patterns on the benchmark disk were produced by ITE (electronics industry association) and not APDC. The scroll burst patterns are used by APDC along with the pursuit camera. For an interesting read check out the following presentation that goes over MPRT and motion resolution.

http://www.semi.org/cms/groups/publi...ctr_026932.pdf

Cheers

The 32" OLED TV: a possible new downturn victim

"For a more realistic sense of where OLED is, you have to look to Samsung's forthcoming 14.1" OLED, which the company plans to introduce in the second half of this year for laptops and TVs. There is no pricing information yet on the Samsung panel, but the fact that the display maker intends it for the laptop market strongly suggests that its price will be more or less on the high side of what you'd pay for a premium LED-backlit LCD. It could be that by the end of this year (and this is my own inference, not Young's), an OLED screen is the display equivalent of what an SSD was at the start of this year—a luxury that some users will pay a sizable, but not exorbitant, premium to obtain.

But the 14.1" panel size represents something of a brick wall, and to get over it will require a combination of innovation and capital expenditures on brand-new plants. It's via this latter factor—the capital expenditures required for plants that can build larger panels—that the downturn could throw up a serious roadblock to the march of display progress.

It would be nice if existing display manufacturing facilities could be easily and cheaply converted to OLED fabrication, but they can't. Young and I discussed a few major reasons why this is the case, but choice of backplane material stood out as a particularly important issue.

Right now, Young told me, amorphous silicon is the "backplane of choice" for display fabrication. About 95 percent of all LCD fabs are equipped for amorphous silicon, but the problem with amorphous silicon is that it's very susceptible to heat. The circuit design for driving pixels on OLEDs is such that one critical transistor with a very high duty cycle bears the burden of switching the voltage that dictates the pixel's grayscale, and as the display is kept on and heat builds up in the backplane material, that transistor's threshold voltage starts to slip, which means that the color would start to shift.

For OLED displays, polysilicon's higher electron mobility and superior thermal properties under load make it more ideal than amorphous silicon for OLED display backplanes. But right now, there are very few polysilicon fabs, and none that can produce panels beyond a relatively small size.

"So the question is what do you do here," Young told me. "Do you take polysilicon and make it bigger, which means you have to have some new fab equipment that's never been built before, or do you figure out how to work with amorphous silicon?"

Right now, researchers from different companies are actively pursuing the latter option, while other groups are contemplating the former.

Building a new generation of polysilicon fabs around new and untested equipment is not only a gamble, but a capital-intensive one that presumes the existence of sufficient consumer demand to make the fabs pay for themselves. Given the demand destruction that all corners of the PC and consumer electronics markets—including displays—have suffered in the global downturn, there isn't much appetite for ambitious new manufacturing capacity build-outs anywhere at the moment.

"The downturn is likely to delay the kind of things [we talked about] here," Young told me. "This is all new capital investment. It's likely that companies that have excess display capacity will be conservative about making new investments; they're already doing that. Most of the 2009 fabs that were supposed to be fairly significant have either been cancelled or pushed out."

When I asked him specifically about Samsung's planned 32" OLED TV, he replied, "How soon Samsung will do their next generation will be affected by the downturn."

I understand your position. I simply believe that it is better to have a subjective motion resolution test than having no motion resolution test at all. For third party reviewers that looks to be the current choice since I have yet to hear of any who have bought the equipment needed for the APDC method.



I agree that viewing the FPD benchmark would not be as accurate as the APDC method but if detailed instructions are included it could reduce the number of subjective variables. That is why I am curious to know what, if any, instructions are included with the FPD benchmark.

OLED market set to skyrocket in 2011, says DisplaySearch



You've seen the prototypes tucked away in trade show corners, and you've seen the demise of existing generation technologies -- it doesn't take an industry expert to realize that the door is wide open for OLED to walk through. According to a new report from -- who else? -- industry experts, the OLED lighting market is set to boom in 2011, with OLED revenues expected to surpass PMOLED displays in the 2013 / 2014 time frame. Specifically in the OLED TV market, manufacturers are scrambling to assemble large-screen OLED TVs that are even close to affordable, and estimates we've personally heard put those on the market just after the next decade begins. Clearly, the biggest hindrance from OLED domination right now is the prohibitive pricing, but once those XEL-1s are given away inside King Size cereal boxes, we'll really be onto something.

Chris

Xrox...

Break this video down for us regarding PMOLED...

http://www.oled-display.net/what-is-pmoled

Chris

That article title is misleading as the original article that it references is only referring to OLED lighting. The article makes no mention of OLED TVs. The blogger is just adding his own comments.

That video does not describe PMOLED (passive matrix OLED) but rather P-OLED (polymer OLED). The field of polymer OLEDs has developed rapidly in the last two years or so thanks to lifetime improvements. Polymer OLED has the obvious manufacturing advantage of being solution processable. Therefore it can be solution coated or printed into pixels for displays or panels for lighting in a mass manufacturing type environment.

PMOLED (passive matrix) describes a method for driving the pixels where there is no TFT behind the pixels but rather just a cathode and an anode that energize the pixels row by row or multiple rows at a time (TMA). The advantage of PMOLED is that it is cheaper and easier to manufacture and provides excellent motion rendering. Disadvantage is it required high current and power which greatly limits the lifetime of the EL material.

Cool updates


Oh so this is something like what Sony did with their X1000 series Walkman.

Btw, how does an OLED touch screen work anyway? (in a technical sense....)

A touch sensitive membrane overlayed over the OLED screen? This is how most all others work.

Finally Sony shows a new OLED "prototype". Looks great! No price or release date yet.

http://www.oled-display.net/sony-sho...n-display-2009

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwqp-xHhqBM

JP Link:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/n...15_125433.html

Sony has announced it will release a new OLED TV by May 2009. LG will release a 32" mass production OLED TV next year.

^^
That's cool news and updates.

Thankfully, at least (though very slowly), OLED is starting to take shape and hopefully, it improves on previous and current gen OLED tech (esp. in fixing its flaws). It's starting to take off finally.

Oh SED, where art thou now?

Little early to be crowing, no?

OLED has taken a while to gather momentum, but I have this feeling that if the state of OLED technology was just a couple of years behind what it is now, it would have taken *much* longer to 'arrive' in the end, due to advancements in white LED backlighting for LCDs etc.

I'm happy now

Exciting rumors! (from oled-info, gizmodo, and Korean Times)

There are rumors (from Industry insiders...) that Sony will be unveiling their 2nd generation OLED TVs at IFA 2009 - on the 4th of September.


Sony 27 OLED prototype (2008)

The XEL-2 (that's what we'll call it until Sony gives us an official name) might be a 27" model, as promised by Sony a year ago, or it might be the 21" displays shown just last week. We'll have to wait and see!

If it's 21-inch, don't even bother.

I can't wait to see the pricing on these from $ony.... probably double or more the price of a 55" xbr8.


We will have to wait probably 5 or more years for this tech to reach any decent size or price point that the average consumer can afford.

It is encouraging that some new tech is being developed..... I remember first gen plasma t.v.'s that cost $10k-$20k about 10 years ago.... and most people would not use them as a door stop today. Today a sub $1k 720p plasma will blow them away

I say quadruple.

Pricing on the upcoming 2G XEL-1 is the proverbial million dollar question here. The price will depend on whether Sony believes that the panel is mass-marketable enough, which in turn, will depend (at least in the US) on the economic climate.

Personally, I think Sony made a huge error in their XBR8 pricing and has undoubtedly left the door open for Samsung to eventually overtake them with their current/future LEDs. Yes, the XBR8 is better than the 950, but was it $3000 better? This spells a doom strategy in pricing, go ask Pioneer

I would like to believe Sony would not make this same mistake twice with their follow-up OLED if they release a 27" panel, because if they do, I guarantee that LG would be more than happy to capitalize on their mistake. Of course, the question is moot with a 21" since it will still be a mostly nonviable size for most interested in a flat panel.

I would like to see the price be <$3000, with a market price of around $2500, but I'm guess around $4000-5000. Sony has worked cost cutting deals to their advantage such as with the original release of the PSP which was expected to be hundreds of dollars more than its launch price, but did not follow this strategy with the PS3. It will be interesting to see what Sony's next move is. My suggestion is they better act fast (meaning low) because if not, you can bet Samsung or LG will...

This technology is great! I believe someday it will be the norm and LCD technology will be wain. We have worked with OLED's before to take advantage of the superior viewing angle over LCD (at the time). But we need a larger size. Now, however, the size is not an issue for us. It lighter, requires less power, etc. and has much more usage than LCD. We've seen a prototype of a flexible OLED panel. It looked extremely sharp and the material looked like a sheet of mylar.

You should expect premium prices for OLED TVs until several brands are able to compete in the >32" range. Once that size is achieved by diferent manufacturers, we can expect the technology to get mainstream. Until then, which is IMO far away, we can expect mainstream OLED smartphones first, and mainstream laptop screens later. But not TVs in the short term.

LG: OLED displays in two months, OLED TVs by the end of the year, will cost twice as much as LCDs
04/20/2009 LG OLED TV
http://www.oled-info.com/lg-oled-dis...wice-much-lcds

LG says that they will launch OLED products in two months. This might be the 15" OLED monitors/laptop-displays.

LG also plans to release OLED TVs by the end of 2009. Interestingly they say that an OLED TV will cost 2.1 times the cost of an LCD TV (while LED-based LCDs costs 1.6 the times of normal LCDs). Maybe LG has already decided on the price of those new televisions?



LG 15 OLED at CES 2009

There were rumors before of 32" OLEDs by 2010. So are they planning to release these TVs sooner? Will LG release the first large-size commercial OLED TV?

Via the Hindu Business Line (and OLED-Info.com)

15" trial product 2009
32" mass market 2010.

2x cost would be a bargain.

Affordable (< $3000) 46" in 2012-2013?

I'm so happy with my new LCD right now!

bye
Benny42

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And...ED_TV/S5K3G4D9

LG Set To Steal Sony's OLED Advantage
By David Richards | Wednesday | 22/04/2009


LG is set to steal Sony's OLED advantage with Company insiders in Korea telling SmartHouse that the Korean Company will have a 15" for sale by Xmas and a 32" in mid 2010.
It is tipped that the company is working towards delivering their 32" OLED TV by June 2010 at a price of around $3,999 and their 15" by Xmas.

A senior executive at LG Display who has been closely involved in the development of display technology for Apple said "The early models will be double, if not triple, the price of an LCD panel however, over time they will fall".

The new 15" LG OLED display panel is tipped to be shown for the first time in a brand new Apple notebook in June and later in the year it will appear as a standalone TV/monitor. Recently LG Display snared a multi billion dollar dislay contract with Apple with $500US being paid upfront.

Currently Sony Australia is selling an 11" OLED TV for $6,999. The exact same TV is selling in Best Buy in the US for US$2,499 (A$3,519).

Warren Kim, Marketing Manager for LG Display in Australia, said "There is a market for everything. We will have to look at the pricing. One big issue in bringing OLED into the market is education. Currently we have plasma, LCD and educating consumers on the different display options is difficult".

Also set to roll out OLED display screens this year are Samsung who earlier this month launched a new range of LED TV's which Sony are arguing are simply backlight LCD TV's.

Currently LG are selling an HD 32inch LCD TV for $1,499.