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Best 2006 1080p ~60" TV for Console Video Games (SXRD and HL-S Game Modes Discussed)

post #1 of 413
6/5/06 at 8:12am
Thread Starter 
AVSers,

I would like to hear what everyone's estimations are for the best 2006 rear projection HDTVs for console video games in the 60" (+/-5") size range.

Personally, right now I am considering the following two sets:
1) 2006 Sony SXRD a2000 60"
2) 2006 Samsung HL-S6187W (or 88W)

In order for an HDTV to be considered the "best" for video games, it would need to be able to both input and display all of the following resolutions with minimal lag:

- 480i (old consoles)
- 480p (Nintendo Wii)
- 720p (Xbox 360/PS3?)
- 1080i (Xbox 360/PS3?)
- 1080p (PS3)

Also, the TV would need to have a fast response time and no burn-in issues (burn-in issues shouldn't be an issue with the DLPs and LCoS displays).

If you make any welcome anecdotal comments to this thread (such as "I played game x of TV y and it was fine"), please include the output resolution of the console and any special modes (such as Game Mode) you had set of your TV during testing. For your reference here are the resolutions most common to older game consoles:

PS2 - 480i (some games at 480p I think)
GameCube - 480i (some games at 480p)
Xbox - 480i, 480p, 720p (rarely), 1080i (Dragon's Lair only I think)

Sony and Samsung each offer a Game Mode that is supposed to minimize display lag for video games. In Samsung's last CES display, they showed a picture of all the new consoles (Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii, and PS3) to promote their new game mode. This implies to me that Samsung's Game Mode is designed to work at any resolution. Also, Samsung's Game Mode feature can be assigned to any input(s).

Sony's game mode is a bit more cryptic to me. On page 82 of the 2005 SXRD manual it states: "Direct mode and Game Mode are not available when watching 480p and 720p sources..." Does this mean that Game Mode can NOT be enabled for 480p (Nintendo Wii) and 720p (Xbox 360) console outputs? Is Game Mode only used for old 480i consoles? Any clarification on the SXRD's Game Mode would be appreciated. Right now, I'm under the assumption that the 2006 SXRD models will have the same Game Mode as the 2005 models.

If you feel you know of another HDTV that matches these video game needs, please feel free to suggest it. Please note that what one considers the "best" for them may not be the "best" for you. I will respect all opinions on the matter. Thank you for your time!
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post #2 of 413
6/5/06 at 12:03pm
Thanks for posting this thread. I didnt feel confortable asking these same questions in other threads. I , myself was looking at the 2006 60a2000 sxrd from sony. But I will be playing probably more Xbox 360 on it than watching TV. Hopefully some good feedback on here will point me in the right direction.
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post #3 of 413
6/5/06 at 3:36pm
Since the 360 will output native 720p, you probably won't have any timing issues on a 1080p set. As I understand it, the real work that introduces lag is going from 480i all the way up to 1080p.
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post #4 of 413
6/5/06 at 3:56pm
Thread Starter 
fade23,

Thank you for your feedback. If I understand correctly, the theory is that 720p and 1080i should not have too much lag because there isn't much processing needed (an upscale for 720p, and a de-interlace for 1080i). I wonder how 480p would perform (the Nintendo Wii's native resolution)?



To anyone out there with an Xbox 360 and an SXRD,

Would you mind setting your 360 to output in 480p, and then testing the response time with a time sensitive game (dance game, sniping game, some sports games such as table tennis, etc.). Can you notice a lag? Can you turn on Game Mode when the 360 is outputting in 480p?
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post #5 of 413
6/5/06 at 5:55pm
I can also tell you that a great many of the Xbox 360 games are both 720p and 1080i. It is listed on the back of the box. From what I can tell the earlier ones are mostly 720p, and most of the newer ones are both. However, they both look great on the HLS series from what I have seen.
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post #6 of 413
6/5/06 at 6:23pm
Awesome thread idea. I have a 2005 60" SXRD that's 1-day old today (throwing a party, you're all invited). Yes it only accepts up to 1080i, but it upconverts it all to 1080P. I also heard Sony may allow users to pay to have the HDMI ports upgraded to true 1080P reception (not sure how true it is).

In any case, I would love to find out eventually how pure 1080P input to 1080P output compares to 1080i input converted to 1080P output in PS3 games later this year. The movies and even the games should technically look the same on 2005 or 2006 models, but I worry about input timing. I have Beatmania on the PS2 and play a lot of Tekken (requires timing as narrow as 1/60th of a second) so it won't be difficult to check.
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post #7 of 413
6/5/06 at 6:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Awesome thread idea. I have a 2005 60" SXRD that's 1-day old today (throwing a party, you're all invited). Yes it only accepts up to 1080i, but it upconverts it all to 1080P. I also heard Sony may allow users to pay to have the HDMI ports upgraded to true 1080P reception (not sure how true it is).

In any case, I would love to find out eventually how pure 1080P input to 1080P output compares to 1080i input converted to 1080P output in PS3 games later this year. The movies and even the games should technically look the same on 2005 or 2006 models, but I worry about input timing. I have Beatmania on the PS2 and play a lot of Tekken (requires timing as narrow as 1/60th of a second) so it won't be difficult to check.

Thank you for the compliment, hopefully we can find enough contributors so that we can all learn something. It sounds like you just bought yourself a very fine HDTV.

As far as the PS2 games go: if they output in 480i, my understanding is you are going to need to turn the SXRD's "Game Mode" on to reduce the lag enough to make it playable. My bigger question is 480p (720p and 1080i). Assuming you have PS2 component output cables, do any of your time-sensitive games support 480p output (I've read that this support is often hidden in the game's option menu)? If so, would you mind checking to see if "Game Mode" can be used for a 480p source? If not, is the 480p game output playable without "Game Mode" on?
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post #8 of 413
6/5/06 at 7:16pm
FWIW, I have an original Xbox and I get no noticeable lag on my 60" SXRD. I haven't even bothered to go into the menus and enable game mode.

None of the games I have do more than 480p, though.
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post #9 of 413
6/5/06 at 7:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by subbedout View Post

FWIW, I have an original Xbox and I get no noticeable lag on my 60" SXRD. I haven't even bothered to go into the menus and enable game mode.

None of the games I have do more than 480p, though.

That's promising to hear. Would you say that the games you are playing are very time sensitive (fighting games, dancing games, twitchy first person shooters, etc.)?
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post #10 of 413
6/5/06 at 7:40pm
Probably fair to say that most played to date is Burnout4:Revenge, which is a reasonably fast paced racer. Hope that helps
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post #11 of 413
6/5/06 at 8:51pm
Thread Starter 
Yup, burnout can be pretty twitchy (and it is 480p if I'm not mistaken). Thanks.
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post #12 of 413
6/5/06 at 9:08pm
I've had a 60" SXRD since December, and have played more games on it than I've watched movies, and not once have I noticed lag. I have a PS2, Xbox (original), and Gamecube (with digital out). I've got component cables for all three systems, and they're run into a Pelican A/V switch box, which then runs into the SXRD.

Here's a list of games I've played on it:

Xbox - Dead or Alive: Ultimate
Xbox - Crimson Skies
Xbox - TimeSplitters: Future Perfect
Xbox - Far Cry: Instincts
Xbox - Lego Star Wars
Xbox - Sid Meirer's Pirates!
Xbox - Ninja Gaiden Black
Xbox - Brothers in Arms: Road to Hill 30
Xbox - Deus Ex: Invisible War
Xbox - Doom 3
Xbox - Halo 2
Xbox - Burnout 3

PS2 - 007: From Russia with Love
PS2 - EA Hockey 2006

Gamecube - Alien Hominid
Gamecube - Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader

And probably others, I just can't remember right now. A lot of different games and resolutions from 480i to 1080i (I think DOA runs in 720p or 1080i, and I have my Xbox set to output at 1080i). The only problem I've notivced on PS2 and GC games I get 1" of black on the left and right sides, that I have to set overscan to +1 to compensate. A few Xbox games this happens to, but for the most part all the Xbox games are flawless.

Looking forward to getting a 360, but I want to play a lot of the good games from the current generation before I get one. Good luck on your decision.
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post #13 of 413
6/5/06 at 10:06pm
my sxrd has some lag when useing my 360 in 1080i. i would switch over to 720p but the picture doesnt look as crisp. i notice it the most when playing mlb 2k6. there is clearly alot of lag when useing that game without putting on game mode. i have notice it slightly on other 360 games but not nearly as much as baseball.
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post #14 of 413
6/5/06 at 11:55pm
Thanks for starting the thread, AVBill. Hope we can get a good discussion going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

my sxrd has some lag when useing my 360 in 1080i. i would switch over to 720p but the picture doesnt look as crisp. i notice it the most when playing mlb 2k6. there is clearly alot of lag when useing that game without putting on game mode. i have notice it slightly on other 360 games but not nearly as much as baseball.

This is pretty disturbing news. I would imagine the 720p scaling to 1080p would yield a much better picture than 1080i. I plan on getting a 360 and figured a 60p framerate would be best for gaming. Any other SXRD owners experienced scaling issues like this with 720p output on a 360? Is this an issue that might be fixed in the 2006 models?
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post #15 of 413
6/6/06 at 2:40am
Thanks to the creator of this thread!

I've been researching various models for the past six months and my primary gaming console is a PlayStation 2 (the truest legacy console of the three) so you can imagine my problem with moving from an old CRT to fixed pixel displays.

I was looking at the 42" Sony RP-LCD A10 but I'm thinking of waiting for the 46" model to come out in July (more size, less price). Perhaps some kinks in the current model will also be worked out?
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post #16 of 413
6/6/06 at 6:26am
You have to keep in mind that the 360 renders 720p internally and uses it scaller to output 1080i if you have it set that way. Most rumors now have the Ps3 doing the exact same thing for 1080 i or p (the hardware specs seem to support this). It comes down to the scalers in these boxes vs those in the TV's. I have a 3 year old CRT and the scaler in the 360 does a far better job at 1080i then my tv. I am leaning to the SXRD but the mention of lag has me thinking....
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post #17 of 413
6/6/06 at 6:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVBill View Post

AVSers,

I would like to hear what everyone's estimations are for the best 2006 rear projection HDTVs for console video games in the 60" (+/-5") size range.

Personally, right now I am considering the following two sets:
1) 2006 Sony SXRD a2000 60"
2) 2006 Samsung HL-S6187W (or 88W)

In order for an HDTV to be considered the "best" for video games, it would need to be able to both input and display all of the following resolutions with minimal lag:

- 480i (old consoles)
- 480p (Nintendo Wii)
- 720p (Xbox 360/PS3?)
- 1080i (Xbox 360/PS3?)
- 1080p (PS3)

Also, the TV would need to have a fast response time and no burn-in issues (burn-in issues shouldn't be an issue with the DLPs and LCoS displays).

If you make any welcome anecdotal comments to this thread (such as "I played game x of TV y and it was fine"), please include the output resolution of the console and any special modes (such as Game Mode) you had set of your TV during testing. For your reference here are the resolutions most common to older game consoles:

PS2 - 480i (some games at 480p I think)
GameCube - 480i (some games at 480p)
Xbox - 480i, 480p, 720p (rarely), 1080i (Dragon's Lair only I think)

Sony and Samsung each offer a Game Mode that is supposed to minimize display lag for video games. In Samsung's last CES display, they showed a picture of all the new consoles (Xbox 360, Nintendo Wii, and PS3) to promote their new game mode. This implies to me that Samsung's Game Mode is designed to work at any resolution. Also, Samsung's Game Mode feature can be assigned to any input(s).

Sony's game mode is a bit more cryptic to me. On page 82 of the 2005 SXRD manual it states: "Direct mode and Game Mode are not available when watching 480p and 720p sources..." Does this mean that Game Mode can NOT be enabled for 480p (Nintendo Wii) and 720p (Xbox 360) console outputs? Is Game Mode only used for old 480i consoles? Any clarification on the SXRD's Game Mode would be appreciated. Right now, I'm under the assumption that the 2006 SXRD models will have the same Game Mode as the 2005 models.

If you feel you know of another HDTV that matches these video game needs, please feel free to suggest it. Please note that what one considers the "best" for them may not be the "best" for you. I will respect all opinions on the matter. Thank you for your time!

Ok so I have a PS2, GameCube, Xbox and and Xbox 360 all hooked up to my Samsung HLS5087W. I have never noticed any lag on either of these systems on any of the games that I've played. I use Game Mode for most of my gaming but since I also use my Xbox and Xbox 360 as Media Player and DVD player respectively, I turn off game mode. Sometimes I actually forget to turn the Game Mode on for playing games and have honestly never noticed any lag even with the game mode off.

Granted that I've been playing my 360 more these days (GRAW mostly). Maybe the tv has been more fogiving since I'm outputting 720p and maybe its easier to handle ... who knows. But I have not notived any problems whatsoever with playing any games on this TV>
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post #18 of 413
6/6/06 at 11:25am
I will test Tekken on the PS2 tonight via S-Video. There are sequences that allow for 1/60th of a second timing, which is more accurate than DDR or other rhythm games. That'll let me know once and for all what the TV can handle. However, I can't do it via component or HDMI, so we may have to wait for PS3 to at least see HDMI in action.
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post #19 of 413
6/6/06 at 11:58am
Maybe I can shed a little light on the Sony settings.

Direct Mode essentially turns on 10-bit color processing instead of 8-bit processing. This does shut down some of the DRC & Cinemotion stuff, but it's faster (i.e. less lag), more color-accurate, and still does the 3:2 pulldown stuff.
(At least, this is what UMR told me when I asked him about it.)

Game Mode, well, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it has something to do with activating a fast deinterlacing algorithm (and I'd speculate weaving, since that would make the most sense for a game source)--but that's just my speculation. It's only available on 480i sources and it disappears if you select Direct Mode. In the end I think you're better off with Direct Mode.

I'm a Qualia 006 and XBox+GameCube owner. Granted it's not a GW SXRD, but the electronics are nearly identical on the 006 and the GW SXRD's (I've confirmed this with a close friend who has one). I game on the XBox a lot and the GameCube a little.

--Dwayne
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post #20 of 413
6/7/06 at 1:45pm
what?! so you cant turn on gamemode in 720p on the SXRD? why didnt they allow this
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post #21 of 413
6/7/06 at 3:07pm
Thread Starter 
I just called Sony tech support, and was told essentially the following (after being transferred up the chain 3 times) in relation to the 2005 SXRDs:

480i -> use game mode
480p, 720p, 1080i should have no lag at the "normal" settings.

I asked him if using component cables (over composite) would minimize the lag, but he said it shouldn't make a difference. Although, I myself have heard before that the better the connection, the less processing a display needs to do.

The guy I talked to said he consulted an engineer (while I was waiting) on this info. He couldn't seem to get millisecond lag delay information for each resolution. His summary goes in contrast with what bboncore1 says above. Personally, I doubt that the inputs have 0 lag, but maybe the lag is so low is in neligible (though this wouldn't explain bboncore1's issue).

Here's a question I'd love to have answered (though I doubt we will ever know this info). What are all the following lag measurements (in milliseconds):

SXRD 480i (GameMode on)
SXRD 480p, 720p, 1080i (GameMode and DirectMode both off)

Samsung HL-S 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p (Game Mode on)

It is understandable why Samsung's Game Mode works at all resolutions (I've read that last year's Sammy DLP were terrible with game lag and lip sync issues). However, in the HL-S series, I've heard rumors that Microsoft themselves approved their new Game Mode (uncertain if this is factual).
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post #22 of 413
6/7/06 at 3:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

my sxrd has some lag when useing my 360 in 1080i. i would switch over to 720p but the picture doesnt look as crisp. i notice it the most when playing mlb 2k6. there is clearly alot of lag when useing that game without putting on game mode. i have notice it slightly on other 360 games but not nearly as much as baseball.

Are you saying that Game Mode does work for a 1080i on an SXRD? Does Game Mode also work for 480p and 720p (in conflict with the manual)? Maybe it is de-interlacing that adds the lag (hence Game Mode is only supported for 480i and 1080i).
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post #23 of 413
6/7/06 at 6:27pm
i played Gran Turismo 4 on 1080i and turned on game mode and it got rid of the lag. yes there was lag on the SXRD when playing Gran Turismo in 1080i
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post #24 of 413
6/7/06 at 8:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent_momo View Post

i played Gran Turismo 4 on 1080i and turned on game mode and it got rid of the lag. yes there was lag on the SXRD when playing Gran Turismo in 1080i

I'm starting to see a trend here (thank you to everyone who has posted information). It sounds like interlaced feeds need the Game Mode on the SXRD, while progressive feeds are probably fine without it (which is good considering that Game Mode appears to not be supported for 480p and 1080i). So to eliminate game lag on the following sets, in a nutshell:

2005 Sony SXRD
- 480i (needs Game Mode)
- 480p (no special mode needed)
- 720p (no special mode needed)
- 1080i (needs Game Mode)
- 1080p (2006 only - no special mode needed)

2006 Samsung HL-S
All resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p) need Game Mode.

Does this sound right to all you SXRD and HL-S owners out there? Does anyone experience lag on either an SXRD or an HL-S with the above options set properly to align with a given game's output resolution?

If lag is still present, what connection are you using (component, s-video, composite , or "gasp" RF)?
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post #25 of 413
6/8/06 at 3:03am
Does lag severly affect a game?
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post #26 of 413
6/8/06 at 8:01am
I have my PS2 hooked in via S-Video for now - input lags horribly. I played Beatmania and Tekken 5; there is no way to play them properly without Game Mode turned on. It feels as your inputs are picked up about .5 seconds late, which in Tekken is a long time since your attack sequences must be designed around 1/60th per second timing to work properly.

There is no lag in Game Mode.
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post #27 of 413
6/8/06 at 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aknbad23 View Post

Does lag severly affect a game?

Depends on the game. Last year I had a Sammy HLR 56" DLP set for about a week. The lag on it made playing MLB 2005 (which is a 720p game on Xbox) unplayable because by the time the TV displayed the pitch crossing the plate, in reality it was already in the catcher's glove. I took it back and got a 42" Panasonic plasma and have had no lag issues with it.
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post #28 of 413
6/8/06 at 12:55pm
has anybody tried 720p and 480p on the SXRDs yet without gamemode? since you cant use gamemode for those inputs right
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post #29 of 413
6/8/06 at 3:00pm
I've been running my 360 in 720p mode since day one (no game mode since its disabled). I didnt really see any difference in quality between 720 and 1080 on my 05 SXRD so I figured better to let the tv do the scaling. Lag has been really hard to 'find' as I guess I'm not entirely sure what I should be looking for. Is it the kind of thing you would know if you had it? I've been playing all kinds of games at this point and never once felt that the controls were behind my input. This goes for games like Kameo and Halo2. Also pulled out the ps2 for God of War recently and never noticed anything strange there either.

If someone could provide an exact way to detect lag problems I would be very curious to try out the different modes and see if it makes any difference.
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post #30 of 413
6/8/06 at 4:18pm
I have a Samsung HLP. Lag is only apparent at 480i. I can play games with split second timing (Mario Golf on the GameCube) at 480p without incident. Granted it's two years old, but if a 2004 model can do 480p and up without incident, I'd assume the HLS could too.

Cush
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