Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 478

With the exception of the Totem speakers, I have extensively auditioned all speakers you mentioned. In fact I have auditioned over 100 pairs of speakers already and eventually chose the Dynaudio Confidence C1s.

The PSB Synchrony Twos excelled at the bass control and I liked their dynamic punch, but for the highs and mids they were not as refined and smooth as the Excites, simply not as well rounded as the Excites. Test them with some vocals and violins and you will admire how the inexpensive Excite speakers are so well rounded and you will probably rate them higher than the PSBs. I know this will offend many B&W owners but nearly all B&W speakers were consistently the poorest performing speakers in their official expensive showrooms and other dealers' showrooms. The Dali Mentor 6s were pretty close to the Dynaudio in performance but were not as full bodied as the X32s and lacking something here and there. With price / performance ratio consideration and the overall sound quality, Dynaudio Excite X32s simply crushed the Dali and this is a no brainer to me.

Lastly please also check the resell values of the Dynaudio and PSB - in case you change your taste and want to upgrade your speakers and sell the old ones, it is much easier and faster to find a buyer who is willing to give you good offers for your Dynaudio than the PSB speakers.

CD depending on your upgrade budget, I don't think any $4,000ish PMC speaker can outperform your 25s... most notably you will find PMC speakers lacking the details and refinements from your 25s, and the soundstage and scale will be a bit compressed too. When I auditioned them they were powered by Bryston 4BSST² and 14BSST² and none impressed me to the extent that they would become my candidates. Of course if you use the more expensive PMC speakers to compete with the less expensive 25s they may have a chance to outperform the 25s in some areas BUT there are always more expensive Dynaudio models there...

You may try Vivid Audio and Wilson Audio - they were the only speakers that could compete with Dynaudio IMO. For example the Wilson Sashas were awesome and the only speakers that could outperform my C1s in many aspects, if you have the budget and floor space the Sasha speakers are no brainer. Sophias and C1s were comparable with the C1s having an edge in being more musical. Vivid audio could not fit in my Italian interior design theme so I didn't consider them although they could compete with my C1s too.

If you auditioned some $4,000ish PMC speakers and found they could outperform your 25s in more than a few aspects, there must be something wrong with your setup and I think the key for you is to bring the most out from your 25s instead of looking for another speakers. Keep in mind that Dynaudio speakers get better when they pair with better upstream electronics and the more expensive models like your special 25s and C1s are considered almost limitless in performance, as long as you can feed them better signals and with proper room treatment you will get the same sound quality from your Dynaudio speakers as some $30,000ish speakers.

Thanks Tiger. No, I wasn't planning on stepping way up in price, in regard to the PMCs. I've now heard not to expect Aerial to outperform my 25s, and PMC as well.

I'm not a sheep; I'm not going to say that because someone else tells me so, I just accept it as truth. However, I have a lot of respect for those who have listened to a LOT of gear...speakers in this case...as I've not heard anywhere NEAR 100 different models!

I don't want to give anyone the impression that I dislike the 25s; nothing could be further from the truth. If we're honest with ourselves, we try different gear for a lot of reasons guys. Hell, I want to try C1 mkIIs...even though I'm on record as saying I think 25s offer this, and C1s offer that...and 25s are likely a better fit for me (needing to ROCK and all...lol)...just because I want to see what the "other half" is like; see for myself.

But I've liked every Dyn speaker I've tried, and at one point said I'd be happy to plant them in whatever listening room I had for life. Sure...to me, part of the hobby is tinkering; but not at the expense of your system. I don't need different, just for different's sake. Even though I've only heard maybe 20, 25 models...and not even that many in my own rig; maybe I need to accept that I have one of the best-sounding monitors, at the price...even if I were to go and listen to 100 different speakers. I should be so lucky, right; just enjoy it, instead of worrying about what else is out there (except for other Dyns, of course )

Hang my hat on the 25s (or, I won't kid ya...I do think I have to try C1 mkIIs)...and worry about putting the best stuff around them; better room, better electronics, etc. Then again...you're all Dyn guys to start with; so of course you're going to convince me of such...lol

CD

Well don't just trust my opinions, if you have the chance to listen to the PMCs don't pass it. I didn't A-B demo those PMC speakers against Dynaudio speakers (I did A-B demo different B&W, Monitor Audio, ProAc, Sonus Faber etc speakers against different Dynaudio speakers though) but some characteristics could hardly be greatly affected by equipment and room accoustics. For these auditon sessions I also did some low volume nearfield auditioning on a single speaker apart from staying frozen at the sweet spot and sonic characteristics such as details, accuracy, clarity, realism, etc could be easily noted and I think they are quite independent of the room accoustics, and during the audition I also checked if some of these unexpected obvious sound characteristics originated from the upstream equipment (thanks to my iPhone and 3G) which I also chose from the dealers. People always comment that unless it is an A-B there is no reference value to compare these auditons. Well I don't totally agree because I think in a near field low volume listening to only one speaker, a lot of faults or merits can still be revealed regardless of the room treatments. The Bryston 4BSST2 and 14BSST2 certainly are not the highest resolution amps out there but the lack of charity and details whereas occasional congestion from the $3000-$4000 PMCs were quite consistent and obvious to notice in the audition sessions. Not saying that they are bad speakers and PMCs are definitely better than the B&W and Monitor Audio speakers of the same price range, but Dynaudio speakers were just too good to compare to...

A few years ago, when I worked for Parasound, I did a show demo with a guy from PMC. I don't remember which speakers they were (IB 2?), but they were the bigger 3 way with 10s and a pair with 12s or 15s. I was completely blown away by the dynamics, presenceand clarity of both. I'd really like to spend some time with them in a controlled environment and get to know them better...

Good note hunde...but that probably goes to tiger's point. I believe the IB2i goes for about $13k (and, of course, the other models up from there). So his point is, for the same price...they're not likely to best the Dyns.

CD

No tiger...as I said, I don't just take someone else's word, and go easily on my way. But you're not the first person to say essentially the same thing.

I'm just thinking maybe it's time to put the idea of fidgeting with the 25s out of my head (except to maybe compare them against C1 mkIIs...or have I already mentioned that )

CD

I've had my S1.4's for five weeks now and have about two hundred hours on them. I spent several months demoing an array of competing speaker models from the major players before settling on the Dynaudio's. The trick for me was finding a speaker capable of playing a wide range of musical genre's. One of the most frustrating aspects of speaker performance I found was the inability of the speaker to be enjoyable on a wide range of music, including non audiophile approved electronica and indie stuff. For example, I had high hopes for the B&W PM1 - it looks great and it's received a lot of positive press. Play Diana Krall (yawn) and it sounded detailed and threw a large well delineated soundstage, but switch to something less genteel and it was like nails on a chalk board, unlistenable top end and little low end weight to offset it.

Anyway, finally getting to my point, the Dynaudio S1.4 was (IMO) the only sub $4k speaker that had a chameleon like ability to make almost any genre shine. Granted they will show up recording flaws (somebody needs to find whoever came up with the Waves L1 plug and shoot them) but they are uncanny in their ability to get out of the way and let the artistic intent get through.

Just my 2 cents.

Thank you! Your observations are close to mine..I do like the bottom octaves and bass control of the PSBs, but as you say, the X32 seem to have a nicer mid-higher range. May come down to form factor, the Dyns fit our house much better and are (in my opinion) nicer looking.

[quote=CDLehner;21497221
I'm just thinking maybe it's time to put the idea of fidgeting with the 25s out of my head (except to maybe compare them against C1 mkIIs...or have I already mentioned that )

CD[/QUOTE]

Imposible, that's like choosing between two beautiful women, you'll always wonder what if?

I now have Sapphires but even with Sapphires I futz around with thoughts of having a c4. If I had a c4 I'd be thinking the same thing about the Sapphire.

Like any addiction, it's not a matter of being satisfied. You simply have to stop.

Aww, still no CES pics

I agree.

When I bought my S1.4's, I also compared them with the B&W PM1 side-by-side. Pure curiosity because of all the good talk about them.
Well, I really disliked them. The dyns sound so much more balanced to me with a tremendous bass output. Those B&W's sound hyped in the highs to me, with little low end.

B&W... even since before I bought my first separates, I remember being intrigued by their Nautilus series. As always with me, mostly because of their looks (that I nowadays don't like as much anymore), and back then they were some completely out of reach utopia, just like the C1s some years later after I first heard them. Still haven't gotten to listen to the Nautilus series, nor Duevel Venuses (funky-looking things!) nor Martin-Logan Mosaics (which look awesome in their simplicity) or other speakers I used to drool at back then

I did get to hear some B&Ws a year ago at the local hifi fair event. It was a surround setup in a fairly large room. I can't recall the models and they looked fairly nondescript, but man, I was underwhelmed with the sound, especially since they weren't exactly cheap (not that I can remember the prices either).

EDIT: I'm actually getting a bit confused... did what is now called the Diamond series used to be called the Nautilus series? Of course there's the Nautilus flagship speaker itself, but I recal the 800-series was also called Nautilus, but these days they seem to be Diamonds?

I've made a side by side comparison between S25 and C1 on the same electronics (Accuphase) and my choice would definitely be the S25. A fantastic, live-like sound, very involving. Don't let anyone tell you that S25 are bright or forward, it's not true. It's a speaker to listen to the music, not to the gear.

On the other side, C1 may be regarded as little bit more forgiving for bad recordings that S25.

I couldn't agree more; IMO, the S1.4s was a BIG leap up from the Focus 140, and it was a tough, tough choice to let it go in favor of even the 25s. Yes...the 25 clearly has better bass...yes, the Esotar outdistances the Esotec; but what the S1.4s had, as you mention, is that great balance.

It was spectacularly non-fatiguing, and sounded good with just about everything. Sure...it didn't give you goose-bumps, like the 25s at their best; but it was a speaker I could live with every day, never feel like it was wearing on me...but never feel like I was getting cheated either.

Again...are 25s "better"? Sure, maybe; but they are over $2k more too. I don't care what speakers I have at the time, I'll take a keen interest in S1.4 mkIIs...or S1.5s. Maybe there's a reason they're getting a facelift last?

CD

Man you guys make it an already tough decision nearly impossible! After long consideration and a new sofa purchase for the misses, I have the green light to upgrade my ht/stereo. A few weeks back in anticipation of this day I went to my Dyn dealer to score a pair of C1 mk1's. Well when I got there they were just sold the day before so he mentioned some awesome deals on demo Special 25's and Contour 1.4's. I listened to both speakers with many different music genres and although I liked many things about both, it seem that something just wasn't there (for me). Great speakers no doubt driven by huge Boulder equipment and no spark for me. Maybe I just had my heart set on the C1's. Today I am going to listen to them again with the C1's out of mind but with CD's and others thought it may be even more difficult to settle in on one of these great speakers.

LOL...no mention of whether you have heard C1s yet, and that they did do it for you. What has your heart set on C1s?

I've said this many times; it might be just me, but I can't pick gear in a vacuum. Maybe it's because I haven't heard 100 pairs of speakers, or 50 amps...to have an aural memory-bank against. There's good, and there's better (to me)...so I have to be able to hear things side-by-side.

So I guess you need to hear S1.4s, 25s, and C1s that way...or (gasp), just go away from Dyns altogether. Again...if S1.4s and 25s just don't do it for you, what makes you think the C1s will float your boat? I mean, there's an argument to be made they're the best of the 3...but I'd be surprised that someone who "didn't like S1.4s at all", loved C1s.

CD

It is interesting that you guys are talking about the S1.4's. I wanted to see if you guys think a 1 year old rosewood pair in perfact condition for 1100 euro's seems to be a fair/good deal. Someone near where I live has them for sale.
Would really love to upgrade to a more full range speaker from my current Focus 110's, which I am very happy with and will make great computer monitors! Also am able to get a mint pair of Focus 140's for 750 euro's or Audience 82's for 855 euro's. Of course I have not attempted to negotiate the price yet but these are the asking prices.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Neal

That sounds like a great deal for those speakers. I paid twice that last year for a pair of demos. I would snatch those up.

As for the Audience speakers. I have a pair of 72s and a pair of 52SEs. The 52 SEs use the drivers and crossover from the previous Contour generation, and they slaughter the 72s in sound quality. With that said, I would think the S14s at 1100 Euros might be a far better deal than Audience 82s at 885 Euros. Disregarding the Contours, I would look for a 72SE before settling on a 82.

~$1400 US? PM sent.

CD

All of those are very, VERY good prices. I'd definitely grab those S1.4s if I were you. Heck, the 140s would be good for say, HT use too, if you have that kind of usage and the budget to buy both pairs.

1100 euros is ~ $1500. That's a very fair deal.

I didn't not mention that I did listen to the C1's when I bought my Focus 140's and loved them. The thing that I remember about the C1's were the tightness of the low end or maybe it was the lack there of compared to the 25's and the 1.4's. Now the room and equipment was different during the demo's, and I do see that the specs on the 1.4's and 25's say that they go a little deeper than the C1. I am in no way trying to say that the S1.4's and 25's sound bad at all the bass on both just kinda took me off guards. Just for the record I have auditioned a number of speakers and it wasn't until I heard the Dyns that I was truly please with the overall balance and quality of stand mount speakers. Changing brands,"not an option."

And this is not meant to be defensive or anything...because I happen to own 25s; but if you mean to say the 25s didn't seem to have any bass to you...something was wrong with your demo.

CD

Maybe my words were a little askew but what I was trying to say was the 25's had huge bass! I actually just got finished listening to both again set up in a different room with Ayre equipment this time at the same dealer. Absolutely loved the 25's. As for the S1.4's were really really good to my ear. The wife came with and agreed but was not feeling the finish on the 25's. I love it but you know how these things can go, she has a thing for matching speakers and with no center for the 25's it is a no go. Today at least. Hey CD, was not a put down about the 25's or the 1.4's at all, maybe the C1's are just more to my liking.

No, no...that's what I was trying to say; a) I didn't take it personally or anything, and b) you are certainly entitled to your perception.

It's just, if you were saying you didn't think the 25s had enough bass for you...and the C1 does...I was suggesting something must have been "wrong" at your demo (wired out of phase, etc...something)...lol.

Glad you and the missus agreed on the C1s; I'm sure you'll love them.

CD

Location, Location, Location!!

This isn't just directed at you Nick, but everybody that tunes into this station.
Most dealers don't take the time to find the best location for each and every speaker they have. Some just line up the pairs of speakers outward from the electronics (really, really bad). The ones that do swap different pairs of speakers in and out for your audition, generally just plop the next pair back in the same location as the pair they just moved out.

Dyns, being rear ported, are especially sensitive to distance from the front wall and the side wall. Each speaker has different port tuning and air output from the port. Too close to the wall and the bass can be bloated and over-exaggerated. Too far away and it can be too anemic and lean. It's called boundary love.

The following photos illustrate how differently 3 different Dyns have been located in my listening space. This is where my Special 25's reside. The next L-shaped tape on the floor is where I had the C1's (they are about 6 1/2" behind the 25's and a few inches inward and had a bit more toe-in). As you can see, the 25's need to be out into the room more. The C1's were moved closer to the front wall to gain more and better bass. These positions are for more than just about bass response, but I hope you get the general idea. It takes a few hours of trial and error (blue painters tape is your friend), but it is definitely worth the trouble. In my room, the 25's are flat to 30hz and the C1's to about 38hz. These positions are not interchangeable. When I move the 25's back to the C1's spot the bass becomes slightly more exaggerated, and when I move the C1's forward, the bass becomes way too lean. A few inches can make an appreciable difference; enough so that it can alter your perception of the bass response and skew an audition.

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This next photo shows a Focus 160 in my room. (I really, really loved those little guys, but that's for another time).

You notice how much further back they are compared to the 25's and C1's. I had started by removing the 25's from the stands and just plopping the 160's in their place. The bass was terrible; anemic and lean. They were having trouble with the stand-up bass fiddle (lowest note on the stand-up bass is 42hz). But I thought the midrange was very sweet. I then moved them straight back to within 12" of the front wall. Now the bass became bloated and overly rounded. So I started inching them outward until I heard the bass to my liking.
Now the 160's don't throw a wide soundstage like the 25's or C1's do, so I started moving them outward to try to widen the soundstage. I moved them outward until the center image (use a track that has female spoken word) collapsed, then moved them back in slightly, and then added some toe-in until the center image snapped back into place. With further trial and error they came to rest in the location in the photo. In their final location they have great bass response, in fact unbelievable bass for such a small speaker, and throw a very wide soundstage with very nice imaging within that soundstage. They are killer speakers for $2900.

My guess is the 1.4's would fall in closest to the C1's location.

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So, all you guys who have their Dyns stuffed back against the wall or into a corner, bring them out and let them breathe a little. Playing around with speaker location (and don't forget your seating location) doesn't cost you anything and the rewards are huge!

@Borderdog

Interesting analysis on speaker placement. I've been avoiding being too pedantic about placement during break-in of the 1.4s but initial thoughts in my room suggest about 16" from the back wall with about 20 degrees toe-in. One thing I'm finding is it's very difficult to get a voice to 'float' centrally between the speakers. I note having them angled directly at the listening position is generally avoided by Dyn owners, not sure why.

Unfortunately I walked away with nothing. Well I still have my 140's. I did absolutely come to love the 25's after this last audition and was aware from reading through this thread that placement was absolutely critical with them. I guess hearing was believing. The C1's that I went to pick up were store demo mk1's and were sold recently. Mk 2 C1's are not in my budget at the moment or at least the wife feels that way. So I will get back to enjoying my Focus 140's, which has never been difficult to do:-)

VNV,
This is just going to be quick and nasty, but it will give you some idea of where I'm coming from.
I sure wouldn't start any closer than 16". Start moving them straight out 1 or 2" at a time until you start hearing the bass the way you like it. In fact, overshoot a lot, just to experience how distance affects the bass. Between a combination of moving your speakers relative to the front and side walls and experimenting with your listening position get the bass first. My guess is your going to get the best bass with the rear of your speakers at about 24" to 30" from the front wall. (The rear of my 25's are 38" from the front wall).

Then go to the spread between your speakers. With the speakers facing directly forward, move them each equally outward until the center image collapses or becomes diffuse. I always use a combination of female vocals and spoken word to do this (if you're over 50 and have been married a long time, you'll understand). Move them back together until you get intelligible dialogue. You do it right and the center image will snap back into place. You also need to measure each speaker back to you listening position so their respective distances are identical. Now start playing some trumpet or violin and work on toe-in. The proper toe-in will help with the inherent brightness of those instruments. Another trick is to spread your speakers slightly further apart to get a wider soundstage, and use a little more toe-in to snap that center image back into place. Dynaudios as a rule don't require a lot of toe-in because of their dispersion pattern.

The voice "floating" centrally between your speakers falls under the category of imaging and is mostly related to room acoustics. One of the biggest killers of proper imaging is a large screen TV between the speakers. Also, your speakers not being far in enough in front of your equipment rack (another great reason to get those speakers away from the front wall). Currently, I'm guilty of the TV thing. I put the TV in place during the last month or so of football season and after football is finished, out it goes again. The difference is huge.
I went 0-4 this weekend, so the TV might not make it to the Superbowl.

And of course, proper acoustic room treatment.