Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 502

Thank you to everyone that offered advice. Tough decision. I guess I'm leaning toward C1 MkII now.

The MKIIs are identical to the sigs with the exception of the finish, correct?

Listen to "Cry, Cry, Crow" by The Pines to get an idea of what I mean by "Alt Country". So good....

My UnitiQute doesn't have line-out, so when I get my Naim NAC202 preamp, I have a choice between using the AV bypass (and thus the Qute's preamp for digital) or getting a DAC and going digital out from the Qute to a DAC to the NAC202.

Anyone have opinions on the Arcam nDAC and the Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus? The other possibility is I may spend a lot more and trade in my UnitiQute for a Naim ND5 XS, but I'm afraid that will be too expensive (like 1500+) vs $500-600 for the nDAC/DacMagic route.

@CDLehner: Please check out this thread as soon as you can. Thanks.

Pertains to my auditioning of speakers today, include the x12s

And the warranty I believe Jax.

CD

I saw it GTA; looks like you caught the "amps don't matter" crowd full force. I don't agree with that; only that, with a limited budget...the best money is spent on speakers.

BTW...it's a shame that 2 of your 3 experiences weren't as you would have liked. Glad to hear you were blown away by the X12s. I thought you were going to be sold on the MAs. If you liked the 12s, the 16s should give you that much more bass. Did you notice, if JSA had any Focus monitors on hand?

CD

Joe called me today CD and they do have Focus 220s on hand and they will probably have my 140s soon. A customer is trading in his C1 mki as soon as next week. What a set of circumstances! I have a verbal agreement with another dealer to complete an order on Monday for his C1s and my man Joe calls me. Some guys just have all the luck!

GTA, I'm not going to dare venture into that other thread. My advice...if your budget allows, try to audition Focus 140s; even if it means less left over for an amp. If you want to try that HK, no harm no foul; I'd suggest you could get a nice, used Integrated...and still afford the F140s.

One word of warning though; Focus 140s are how I got hooked on Dynaudio. Now...a pair of Contour S1.4s, and Special 25s later...look at me; C1 Sigs. They're addictive! Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

CD

They have a demo set of Focus 220 II that they are selling for $2500? Otherwise, not that I remember.

I am going to do it better next time and set up an appointment.

I think my budget is around $600-$1000 max for an integrated. Looking for something that can drive around 150WPC at 4Ohms. New or used. Send me some suggestions.

I would step up to the Focus line if I were you.

Here is a pair of Focus 160 from Dedicated Audio (authorized dealer) http://dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/33387

Or a pair of brand new Focus 140 for $1700 http://dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/2647/17467

The $700 left is enough to buy a nice used integrated amp.

Wow! I have to agree with lulimet here, that's would leave enough funds for a used Nait 5i. Can't go wrong with that combo IMO.

So where in the world can one buy a Nait 5i????

I would keep an eye on eBay and Audiogon. They go quickly. There were two on Audiogon within the last week. I know that because I was watching for a Naim NAC202 & happened to see the two 5i come and go. It will be worth the effort to find one, especially for a pair of Dyns.

The setup you are considering. The pre-amp does have more of a sonic signature then a power amp. I used to use a Sony multi channel receiver with my X16s and while it sounded good, it lacked punch and would heat up often. The Integra sounds better and has more grip on the woofers and much better bass performance and it doesn't get hot enought to melt a stick of butter. Naim, Arcam, Musical Fidelity, Exposure, Simaudio, and tube gear all produce their own sound and dynamic swings. Just changing the tubes on a tube IA will change the sound, ask George or Rhett, or anyone that rolls tubes here.

I dont know much about the HK receiver you are looking at, but if you look at Agon, there is usually good IAs for cheap, Exposure, Creek, Naim, Arcam, Musical Fideltiy and many others. It doesnt take a lot to power the excites, but the Focus and up need a higher current gear to really move that 3" voice coil.

The finish and warranty are the only differences. 10yrs on the Sigs - 5yrs on MKII.

GT If your serious about dyns remember watts are not always the same. Naim 5i and Octave V40 are 2 that are rated at 50w and 40w and either will drive any Dyn Monitor with ease. At Tyler's we hooked up a Naim 5i to the Sapphires and the only problem was when you turned them way up - the 5i ran out of steam pretty quick.

As far as pre-owned Naim 5i's there was 1 yesterday on Agon for 850 but is gone today. Agon pulls the ad as soon as it's sold (looks like the Naim XS on Agon just dropped $100 to $1700). Just have to keep watching. If you snooze you lose.

I agree with CD regarding putting as much as you can into speakers first. IMO you get the most for the money spent with speakers followed by the amp/integrated then sources and last with cables. There will be plenty of folks that will disagree with me but that is my opinion from what I learned when building my system.

I really need someone to talk me out of the HK 3490. It offers 150wpc@4Ohms (exactly what the Excites need). It costs $450 new.

I just need someone to tell me WHY other amps are going to better at lower wattage for twice the price.

Not a dynaudio review per se but the speakers do get compared to the Dynaudio Sapphire

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?...views&Itemid=2

GTA...how new are you to the hobby? If this is your first "serious" system...with all due respect to the others...I wouldn't try and talk you out of the HK. You'll only know if you think the Naim, or anything else...sound "better", if you have something to compare against.

If you're dead-set on the HK for now, start with that. Then...when money allows...maybe you'll find the right 5i, or something else that someone recommends...and you can try it then.

Used gear is a god-send for an audiophile on a budget (and we all are, in one way or another...just depends on the size...lol). The key is, get to know the market...try not to over-pay...and you get a free in-home audition. If you like the new piece better than the old...you keep it, and you paid a fair price. If not...you keep your old, and sell the "new"...and hopefully don't lose much to anything in the process (I've actually made a few bucks at times ).

So...if you're new to the hobby, I say start with the HK. Everyone needs a first system, and if you go against your gut, your expectations might be so high you'll always wonder what might have been; and you'll be listening to the gear, rather than enjoying the music.

In either case, you're in good hands here. Keep us updated and good luck.

CD

Here is a good read about watts and power for amps. this also helps to understand that current and voltage are what really matter when determining power. Wattage has to double to in order to gain a 3db lift in volume. Amplifing the current and voltage increases power, and the actual wattage.

OK, so take a notorious overstated receiver power specs like Yamaha, Sony which say they power 110 watts/ch, yet you turn them up and they seem to strain and run out of steam, their voltage and current are limited by their small power supplies, weak amps and circuitry. Take a 50 watt nait 5i, it sounds like the volume just keep getting louder beyond what those two can do becuase its ability to amplify the current and voltage by using a better power supply and circuitry and amplifiers. That is also helps to explain why the 5i's price as an entry level unit is the price of those MFGs top of the line AVR with more channels and features. Of course theres other factors, built in the UK vs China, the quality of the pre-amp circuits and build, etc.

OK, so I have no experience with HK, however if you have a 50 watt IA vs a 150 watt Stereo receiver, you technically only gain 6 dbs, if all other factors are similar. Now the pre-amp will offer its own sound, pacing and rhythm. Will the HK sound more digital and cold? Will is sound warmer? Will the Nait be more musical? Natural? The 5i says itll power 500 watts into 1 ohm!?! WTH!

I can't tell you what you will like more, but what I can say is that you can't count all watts to be the same. The best thing to do is listen to more then one or two units and determine what you like the sound of the best, and if its worth whatever the cost is to you. Maybe the HK works for you for now. Maybe you up your budget and go for something else. Maybe Musical Fidelity, Maybe Integra, Maybe Marantz, Music Hall, Creek.... etc.

source info

Again today I really have to agree with CD. Years ago after I quit with receivers I bought a Denon PMA 700 for $400. I ran that amp for 17 years before jumping into a Bryston B100sst @ over 10X the cost. Was the Bryston better - Yes but not by much. Denon's quality had gone pretty far downhill when I bought the Bryston IMO. It wasn't until I had Dyns that I found the amp will make a bigger difference. BTW my old speakers were the Mission/Cyrus 782's which I used for 19 years and loved them. I still have them for sentimental reasons - besides today they are not worth much.

Anyhow today I have the Octave V70SE and did not compare it to the V40. I thought the same regarding power besides the V70 was readily available. For grins I asked Tyler to loan me his V40 just recently and honestly the V40 has more than enough power for my C1's. The V40 is 40w at 4 ohms. The V70 is 70w at 4 ohms. The Bryston B100 is rated at 180w at 4 ohms. Naim 5i is 50w and the 5i honestly is much better sounding. The Naim XS at 60w is even better sounding. So watts are not always the same. Just like speaker ratings. There are plenty of speakers that have better frequency ranges and db rating that don't sound anywhere as good as the C1's but cost a lot less.

That being said I will say again get the best speakers you can afford first. Especially if you heard the HK with the dyns and like it.

GTA, we're probably overwhelming you with all this info; don't let us. Keep it simple, and buy what you want. I mean that sincerely; that's important. I'm not going to get into double-blind ABXs, and psycho-acoustics...and all that jazz; but audio, like almost everything that passes through us...probably does have a psychological component. If you're listening to an amplifier you didn't want to begin with...chances are you'll find fault; or as I've said before, be listening to it...and not the music. JMO.

That being said...I'm starting to re-think the HK 3490. I agree with Callas; many of these receivers specs are grossly exaggerated (AVRs are the worst). I only kind of got on-board, because I know the "subjectivists"...those that believe all SS amps sound the same, and a watt is a watt (like your other thread is full of...lol)...are so high on it. In my mind, I was picturing the HK 990



Now that is a substantial looking unit! It's also a $2k Integrated...lol. Not that we buy on looks or anything; but engineering is important to note I think. OTOH...the guts of the 3490 don't offer much to convince me it's the "powerhouse" it suggests.

Plus...you talk about the 3490 delivering 150wpc into the 4ohm load that Dyns nominally operate at; but let's look at the big picture. I'm not sure how new you are to the hobby (and I really want to know...more on that in a minute)...but the general rule of thumb, is that a quality amp...with a quality psu...will double its power, or at least come close, from 8ohms to 4. The HK 3490? 120wpc into 8ohms, only 150 into 4; I'm no EE, but that suggests to me it's starting to run out of steam...quickly...under harder loads. Plus...the distortion rating goes up quite a bit; it's .07% THD at that 8ohm rating...jumps to .20% THD at the 4. That also tells me it's starting to strain with tougher loads.

I know, I know; I told you to keep it simple...and here I go throwing all these technical specs out at you. I know it's hard for you to...but the best thing to do is try to listen. See if you can find a place that will let you try the 3490 with a money-back policy? You could home-demo, and see what you think. I'm not saying don't get the 3490 now; just some additional food for thought. Sorry...lol

But what I really want to know...if you're willing to share...is your experience with the hobby to this point. Are you just starting out? What gear have you had before? What did you like...dislike? What kind of music do you dig? What's your room like...how loud do you like to play things? I'm a little guilty of breaking my first rule; anyone who offers advice on gear, without first understanding you...is only suggesting what they like; not what you likely will.

CD

Have to respectfully voice a vote for "the amp does matter". For an audiophile on a budget, why not check out the Odyssey line. They make a killer 110 watt amp and an integrated version for $995 that throws out serious current and a damping factor over 500.

For less money I'd be looking at a used NAD amp. Even a brand new NAD 326bee would stomp on the HK receiver.

Trust me, current delivery, stability with variable speaker impedance, and damping factor DO matter. A NAD amp will stand and deliver.

Bargain amps on audiogon:

NAD c355bee

Creek 5350r

Cambridge 740a

Arcam A90

Don't put too much stock into the doubling of the power - that's more of a theoretical ideal, with everything else done right. Even the mighty Naim amps don't double from 8 to 4 ohms. The 5i is 50/90, which is pretty good and close, but the UnitiQute is 30/45, so only a 50% increase. My NAP250-2 is 80/145, so that's a pretty good increase, but it has a 400VA transformer too, providing many gobs of current.

Now that distortion is not good.

I like the 740a as a first choice.

CD

Can't say I agree Dean. I did say close; 50/90 is close...80/145 is close. Even 30/45 is 50% as you suggest (and I think at lower wattage...like 30 to begin with...you can't expect a double). But 120/150...that's 25%.

But again...I'm no EE; JMO

CD

I have Arcam gear and it sounds really excellent, but I have had a few reliability issues in recent years with an AVR and DVD player. But that's just me, so I wouldn't stop anyone from buying it. I just sold an old Alpha amp from the 90s and it sounded excellent. Still have another for sale, but it's just a power amp.

I do agree with you that the 120/150 is suspect. I'm just sayin', don't expect 240. But we're pretty much on the same page anyway.