Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 504

Hmmm...now I am coming back to the XEO3.

I could run my BR player to this box via the R and L line in jacks. The HTPC via USB. And the TV via SPDIF...

First of all the main line brands are not all crappy. Didn't you say you loved the X16 with just a plain jane sony receiver?

I am using a Marantz but you can't go wrong with Onkyo, Denon or Pioneer. Just make sure the receiver has ARC and pre outs if you plan on adding an outboard amp in the future.

Well, I have dominated this thread for far too long.

I will give it all a rest until I can audition the X12 vs. X16 vs. XEO3 and then go from there.

The Onkyo NR509 will do 160WPC at 4Ohms, supports ARC, and runs only $240.

But the cheaper I get here, the more I feel like I am doing the Forums and my Dyns an injustice lol.

Someone at one store yesterday told me that sending audio via HDMI degrades quality and that only component is the way to go.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure if degrade would be the correct term, but generally speaking the jitter measurements over hdmi are a lot worse than over spdif. Whether it's actually audible is another story.

GTA, I sure hope this is a typo or something. If your point is, you're worried about somehow letting the "forum" down with your choice...I'd put it out of your head.

Only do what makes sense and pleases you...and don't worry about the "forum". We don't think as one anyway, so there's no pleasing us.

CD

About the whole wattage rating thing... sure would be nice if they were at least somewhat comparable or accurate. Like my new Yamaha AVR says it's 90Wpc @ 8 ohm, but I can't find any measurements about what it can actually output without overt distortion, especially at 4 ohm since I have Dyns connected. And of course, in stereo mode AVRs tend to be able to do more per channel so that's an additional thing to wonder about.

By comparison the Puccini does 40 watts @ 8 ohm and 65 watts @ 4 ohm, a moderate 62,5% increase.

Still, needless to say I can't play anywhere near loud enough that the Yamaha would run out of steam even with multichannel content. Which sucks, since I like having some volume. Stupid apartments.

Meh. I do think it's funny that I can go to multiple "audio review" sites and read glowing reviews of "low-end" Onkyo products that earn "product of the year" awards, have dozens have positive user reviews, etc. And then these same sites also usually feature reviews of "superior" products from Cambridge Audio, NAD, etc. and they are rated less stellar with no user reviews...

Here is the spec sheet on the NR609 I am considering...

I assume this will drive the X12s or X16s to "pretty good" volumes?

I had typed this earlier in this thread when questions arose about amplifiers, and decided to re-post. It's a very basic explanation of amplifiers and what "power" means:

Power amplifiers do not "supply" watts, nor do they "push" watts, nor do they "output" watts.

What power amplifiers do supply is a voltage, and nothing more.

Watts are developed (perform some sort of work) in a load, which in this case is a loudspeaker. The amount of watts being produced in the load is directly related to the amount of voltage supplied by the power amplifier and the resistance (impedance) of the load. The formula for determining the amount of wattage produced in the load is the voltage squared, divided by the resistance (impedance) of the load.

An amplifier which delivers 40 volts RMS to an 8 ohm load is going to cause 200 watts RMS to be dissipated in that 8 ohm load. If you remove the 8 ohm load completely, the amplifier would still be supplying 40 volts RMS, but the amount of wattage produced would be zero.

If the amplifier is supplying 40 volts RMS into a 4 ohm load, then the power would be 400 watts RMS. If the load is 2 ohms, then the power would be 800 watts RMS.
The above assumes a "perfect" power amplifier, which is called a "perfect" constant voltage source. This means that no matter what the load resistance (impedance) is being placed on the output of the amplifier, it's voltage will remain the same.

Ohm's law rules supreme. Power amplifiers supply a voltage - it's the load which determines how much current is drawn, and thus how many watts are dissipated into the load. A power amplifier will try to supply a constant voltage into any load thrown at it, but sooner or later it won't be able to keep the voltage at the same level as the load wants to draw more and more current. It's at that point the amplifier starts becoming a current source rather than a voltage source.

Think of it this way:

Current is what flows on a wire like water through a pipe. It flows from negative to positive.

Voltage is the difference in electrical potential between two points in a circuit. It's the pressure behind current flow through a circuit.

Resistence determines how much current will flow through a component. High resistence (say, 8 ohms) will not require much current. Lower resistence (say, 4 ohms) will require more current to be delivered by the constant voltage source, or amp.

So, an 8 ohm speaker would be an easier load than a 4 ohm speaker. The amp would also be delivering less current at 8 ohms and thus fewer watts than into the 4 ohm speakers - this assuming it is putting out the same voltage into either impedance.

Say your amp is putting out 16 volts into an 8 ohm speaker. It is delivering 2 amps. V = I x R. Now, say your amp is putting out 16 volts into a 4 ohms speaker...it is now delivering 4 amps. Same voltage, different current requirements. Dynaudio speakers are 4 ohms yet are an easy 4 ohm speaker because it's MINIMUM impedence is 4 ohms. Some speakers (larger B&W's can dip to 2 ohms......much harder on an amp.) If the same 16 volts out of the amp is used on a 2 ohms load...then, the load (speaker) is requiring 8 amps. As you can see, the lower the impedence, the harder it is for an amp to produce the required (read: same) voltage output across the impedence swing. So what is needed in an amp to handle difficult impedences...that is, continue to deliver the same voltage across different impedences? Basically, a bigger power supply (larger power transformer which is more of an ideal voltage source itself along with more storage capacitance), more output transistors, etc. However, there are other problems with the design of an amp (removal of heat, for one, as well as many other cost concerns) to be able to deliver constant voltage down to 1 ohm or so. Some amps can, like Boulder, but not many speakers require such "robustness". So, corners are cut, and this is with all amp manufacturers. What you need to be sure of, is that the cut corners are acceptable for you based on your speakers.

To do what you want, you will need an AVR or at least a DAC to IA, or an IA with a built in DAC, like the CA Azur 651, that can accept Optical Input.

What you would do, is connect the BDP/HTPC to the AVR with HDMI IN, then out to TV with HDMI OUT, simplest solution. Then connect the Antenna to the TV, and use the Digital Optical Out on the back of the TV to the Optical in on the AVR. That will give you over the air audio thru the AVR. You may have to check with you TV to see if have to change a setting on the TV do move audio to Digital Out, so you dont have audio going out the TV speakers.

Otherwise with an IA without a built in DAC, you would have to use the Analog outs on the BDP/HTPC to the inputs on the IA. THen Optical out on the TV to a DAC to the inputs on the IA. You would connect the BDP and HTPC via HDMI direct to the TV. You may have to check with you TV to see if have to change a setting on the TV do move audio to Digital Out so you dont have audio going oout the TV speakers.

If the IA had a built in DAC, it would be the same as above, just without the external DAC.
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Id suggest that you get a Marantz or Onkyo Receiver. I like both.

A BR Player will output audio via HDMI, Analog and Optical/Coax all simultaneously when set to HMDI, so you can have video go out via HDMI and Audio via the analogs. OR you can set the BDP up so that it know that audio will be dedicated to outputting via Optical or Analog, and it will only output video over HDMI and then only audio via the selected output setting.

Its not out of the question, it will just take setting up. The biggest issue will be the OTA antenna. But even that can be solved.

The best ones to go with would be Onkyo/Integra or Marantz. They are fairly musical for AVRs and very flexible. Yamaha and Sony tend to struggle with power output IMO and they top out when pushed, Pioneer to me sounds to hyper detailed, cold and digital sounding, and only the SC line is really good. HK, don't have experience, cant help.

On the lower end units, I find the Onkyos tend to power speakers better with their larger power supplies. As you get into the receivers that start to approach the $1000 price range and up, you get better equipment and performance, not to mention features.

Id suggest the Onkyo 708/709 minimum because they also have pre-outs for an external amp or IA with a HTBP if you choose to add one later down the line.

That can work too but I didn't give him that suggestion because he would become even more confused than he already is. lol

My plan was to keep the OTA antenna connected to the TV. I will use the ARC HDMI 1 input and connect it to the receiver. This should allow OTA sound to work through the receiver/speakers.

For the BR player, I could either run just the HDMI cable to the receiver OR run the HDMI from the BR->HDTV and the Optical/Coax to the Receiver among other possibilities.

The HTPC would run via HDMI to the receiver.

I suppose the easiest option though would be to connect the antenna to the TV, TV connected to the receiver via HDMI and then connect the BR player and HTPC via HDMI to the receiver and be done with it.

Additional receivers now to be considered may include the Integra DTR-20.3 and the Denon AVR2112CI. (I can't confirm the price of the former.)

The CA 650R is too rich for my blood at $1600.

If I could suggest, Get the Integra 30.2/30.3. Its equal to the Onkyo 608/609 but it has pre-out so you can add a power amp/Integrated amp, down the road if you wish. It should cost around $700ish. Then you can run everything via HDMI into the AVR take advantage of HD audio with movies. And if you want you can use the ARC via HDMI and make connecting everything very simple.

GTA, if u are looking at main stream receivers, take a look at Sony ES. The regular Sony line does not have the current to bring out all, or even, most of what the Dyns have to offer. Onkyo isn't bad once u get to the 809 and above...especially the 1009...that's where u get the better DACs (Burr Brown). Marantz is OK...depending on which model u choose. HK is sold where I work, and no one has ever sold one. We don't even used them when we demo speakers for customers. Again, if u are going to look at Pioneer, look at Pioneer Elite. But, be advised, the new Pioneer Elites use Class D amps. When I sold them, demoed them on various speakers etc., Monitor Audio, Vienna Acoustics, and Sonus Faber, I never felt any emotion or connection with the music. And finally, we come to Yamaha. I demoed some speakers, although, not Dyns, but Polk Audio with a Yamaha receiver...the RX V A810 to be exact. It actually didn't sound too bad...and that's with a horrible source component.

I don't know the price point of Integra, but u might want to look at one. There amps used to be designed by BAT. The sound was pretty good as far as receivers go. Other brands I might suggest are Anthem (price point unknown), Arcam...they have a new reciever out...just released. Reliability and price unknown.

Now, I'm going to step out on a limb here. I've heard a few people suggest buying something used or previously owned. Above all others previsouly mentioned, I would recommend a B&K AVR (used of course). Of all of the receivers mentioned, B&K has the chops to pull this off!!! And for those of u who think that B&K is out of business, they were to ATI. Can be bought for well within ur budget. And if u don't like to the sound, u're not out of a lot of money. When I first got my Dyns (C2s), I had a B&K pre/pro and their 5 chnl amp. IMO, their rcvr sounds the best of all of the above mentioned rcvrs.

Oh, BTW, I used to sell B&K as well at a previous retailer.

Thoughts on NAD C390DD? (It comes in at about the same price as Naim XS) The idea of 100% digital processing up until it hits the speaker terminals sound compelling. Anyone knows how it stacks up vs. the frequently cited matches for Dyns? Would it be a good choice to run with Focus 220Mk2?

Looking at the Sony website, I don't see any receivers with "ES" in their model designation.

Onkyo: Haha! You guys keep pushing me up the ladder I was first looking at the 609, then the 709 (still in budget). The 809 and 1009 are probably more than I want to spend...for an Onkyo.

Marantz: The SR5006 is in my budget but reviews seem sketchy compared to Onkyo.

Yamaha: The Yamaha RX-A810BL appears to be in budget.

Integra: DTR-30.3. Can't find a price anywhere. Where is it sold?

I think Integras are sold at dealers only.

Yes, dealer only, the 30.x is about $700-750, list price.

So, given similar receivers at a similar price point, which do I go for between Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha, Denon, and Integra?

Who builds the most solid unit with the best DAC? Best power supply? Etc.

Denon, Integra, Marantz and Onkyo are all owned by the same company and many of their models share the same parts and features.
Just choose one that is within your budget and has the features you need.

Onkyo and integra are basically the same, marantz and denon are the same. Integra offers probably the most followed by marantz. Sound wise both are very good.

Where did you get this info? Denon and Marantz are part of D&M Holdings. Integra and Integra research - together own Onkyo.

Hey, why the Onkyo dissing? Even their cheapest AVR model powered my C1s quite well. Never had any hiccups with them. The more expensive Yamaha that I now use does sound better (or I could be just imagining it, who knows) and has more features (like pre-outs), but still the Onkyos were very good value for money. I'll admit I have no experience with their higher-end products, but it seems strange to avoid them "just because"

Haha. Wow. I did not know that.

So where does that leave Yamaha in the mix? (Ex. YAMAHA RX-A810BL)

Yamahas don't bench test very well, and yapo calibration is not as good as audyssey. Look at WWW.accessories4less.com and you can get a better onkyo, denon and marantz for that price.