Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 513

Maybe he meant excess bass?

If I cross my Sub over any higher it's too much unrealistic bass. Too many people when they first get a sub (myself included) cross it over too high and wonder why they really can't hear the lowest octave.

My Naim Audio ND5 XS 24/192 network streamer is in. I just got it hooked up and am listening to the HD Tracks 24/192 version of Modern Jazz Quartet, "Last Concert." Sounds great so far.

I think he meant that the integration of the sub's bass output was seamless with respect to the main speakers, CD.

Well...maybe so; but given his follow-up...


...I'm not so sure. I'm not trying to bust chops or nit-pick over semantics. Just curious, if someone wants to blend their bass...to the point where there's no noticeable "extra" bass...what's the point of a sub?

CD

HooStat, Are u using acoustic treatments in ur room? Knowing wavelength and propagation could assist in placing treatments in a room. As I mentioned before with u, I have the C2s in a HT set-up. Room is 20' x 12' with 8' ceilings. Listening to mostly music in this room. Trying to place my room treatments so as to get the most out of my equipment and speakers. Thanks!

3amadors, Just wanted to say congratulations on the C1s. Very nice indeed. I know this has nothing to do with the above questions...so pardon this little interruption. But I also want to say that it sounds like you should have a real nice sounding system. I've never heard the Manley gear. What's ur take on it? I hve C2s driven by Theta Digital CassablancaIII and Balance Audio Technology VK-6200, Project RM10 w/Sumiko Blackbird cartridge, Sumiko Phono Tube SE and a Pioneer Elite BDP-09 for my CD playback (digital coax in to a Theta DAC. Congrats again.

I want the lowest octaves that my C1's can't do without getting boomy. Example If I set my crossover at 60hz (which the C1's do just fine with) I'll have the C1's bass with the subs bass adding to the sound. Now below 45 the lowest octave will be there but not proportional to the rest of the lowest octave sound. The C1's do fine on their own but I have maybe a 1/2 dozen songs that go to 20-25hz. Without the sub I can see the woofer pumping hard but can't hear it. Add the sub and you think those little C1's are much bigger

My room is 20' x 12' with 8' ceilings. I hv C2s and using a Martin Logan Sub Depth i (HT set-up). When I'm playing to 2-channel music, it sounds just fine...actually great! I've put my S1.4s in the place of my C2s just to see if they could pull it off. The sound of the S1.4s was good. But, I'm glad that I have a floor standing speaker doing the job full-time. I know, I know, u can't compare the sound of the 2 speakers...especially when one is a floor standing speaker and the other is a bookshelf...and Contour bookshelf at that.

I am literally just ordering my first room treatments right now. Will see how they work. I honestly don't know where they would go best. My placement is limited by where my wife will allow them. Off the top of my head, I would think you would want to hit the first reflection point to your ears (90 degree angle between your ears and your tweeter), the space behind you, and probably the space between the speakers (unless there is a TV there). Maybe the ceiling too. I would think that diffraction would also work in these spots too, instead of absorption. For instance, a book case or something in these spots might also be helpful. Too much absorption and the room becomes too dead, so probably a balance would work.

These are just my best guesses. There are others who probably know more. I would be interested in answers to these questions too!

I'll put it this way too - If I wanted a more punchy deeper bass I would have considered the S25's or Sapphires. The extra bass are the lower octaves for me The only spec for my Rel B3 is 18hz @ -6db. I would guess and it is only a guess that the B3 will do 23-25hz @ 0 db.

To everyone, thank you for the input. I can't wait until the sub arrives and then I will go for the room treatments next.

To Sparks81: I really like the sound of the Manley's and on another note your system sounds great...congrats to you too! As I said I am not an expert but I have been learning alot and as a side note I just saw a demo set of 500 watt Manley Neo classic monoblocks at a great price on AA but I am definitely on a budget and have been building my gear as I am able too.

Also, I like the whole story on Manley and what they do.

I will post when I get the sub up and running.

Thanks

Correct, one of the hi-fi mavens here used to set up double subwoofers with his bookshelves (which reached down to 32 hz ) and use to ask other audiophiles to listen if the sub was on or off, my point is a properly set-up sub will not call attention to itself but will aid in the overall ambience and imaging. A sub that's boomy is best left for the bose crowd.

I can give you some general "rules of thumb", but keep in mind your room is it's own audio component, and may require different treatments based on dimensions/angles/materials/etc.

First reflection points are ideal locations for absorption. To find the first reflection points, you'll need two people and a mirror. Sit in the "sweet spot" and have the other person move a mirror along each side wall, ceiling, and floor location until you see the tweeter of your speaker. Once you see the tweeter in the middle of the mirror, that's the center point of your absorptive material. It is closer to the speaker than you would think (not necessarily a right angle). For absorption, the thicker the better. The thicker the material, the lower in frequency it can absorb (doesn't absorb more, just lower frequencies). So, you have primary reflection points on each side wall, ceiling, floor, and rear wall behind the listening position. Most important would be the side walls. For the floor, if hard surface (ideal), place a heavy rug on the primary spot. For the ceiling, again, panels on those spots. Back wall...if more than 5 feet from your listening position, you can try diffusion (shelves with a lot of different stuff on them). If the wall is closer to you, than absorption inter-mixed with diffusion (panels with about 18" between them). Again, the thicker the better to deal with bass.

Your speakers should be 3ft from the front wall. If not, you may need absorption behind them as well (again, 4" would be great). Between the speakers (if nothing is there) could be a good diffusion spot, but really, that area isn't as important. Regarding important treatments, I'd go with the following in terms of importance:

1) Bass traps. Bass is the biggest problem with most rooms and bass trapping the corners will provide the absolute best bang/buck.
2) Absorption in primary reflection points.
3) Absorption in secondary reflection points.
4) Diffusion in other areas of the room.

Couple of general guidelines:

Absorption should take up about 20% of the total flat surface area of the room. In calculating the surface area of flat surfaces (floor, ceiling, walls, windows) you'll see 20% is a lot of absorption (especially when panels are only 2x4'). Absorption doesn't create a flat room unless too much is applied and in the wrong areas. It creates a detailed sounding room as it minimizes direct reflection of sound that arrives ms after the direct sound. Improves imaging, soundstage, and overall "tone" of the room.

You cannot have too much bass trapping. Impossible. So, treat every corner you can with the thickest panels possible. Controlling the bass will give you a very detailed bass sound, remove boominess, and clear up the mid range pretty dramatically.

Jamhead = awesome. Thank you.

Ive had some time to get my Nait 5i up and running and all connected and calibrated. I am really loving this unit.

First it weighs a lot for a unit that looks slightly larger then my blu-ray player. The build quality is very good, very sturdy. The power cord will not need replacing, its heavy duty at 14 gauge, and makes the Integra's power cord and the Subs power cord look cheap by comparison. The connectivity is pretty straight forward and even setting up the HTBP wasn't very difficult. The only issue I had was that I forgot to calibrate my receiver once the 5i was in-place, which led to it over-powering the speakers, but I fixed that issue rather quickly by running the Integra's Audyssey calibration program. After getting the calibration completed the unit was in line with the Integra for use as a power amp when watching TV or Movies. I have to say that it works very seamlessly, and as a power amp in AV mode, it still takes a good grip on the woofers and produces movies scenes with great dynamics.

I have my Pro-ject Debute III with Sumiko Pearl Cartridge and Musical Fidelity V-LPS pre-amp connected to the 5i, along with my Sony S360 BDP connected via its L/R analog outs, and the Sonys internal DAC and analog board is doing all the conversions. Later I want to add an external DAC to the unit and output via Optical to the DAC and then use its analog outs to connect to the 5i. DACs Im looking into are the Arcam rDAC and the Musical Fidelity V-DAC MKII, with the former(Arcam) being the one I really want.

I put in the Star Tracks cd, and in the Imperial March, track #2, when the tympani hits, it slams. I remember hearing this on the Naim XS, and kept thinking "Man, I really want to hear that in my system." And I am happy that the 5i is quite capable of that. At the same time it never loses the orchestras detail and presentation. The attack and decay of all instruments is spectacular. Horns and cymbals float and ring out very smoothly, and the tympani strikes are sudden and forceful, but sustain their heft for moments after. I can follow any one instrument, regardless of which side of the orchestra its on with ease. All instruments were placed very well, and the soundstage is much more open and deeper then what I would hear with the Integra in place. With the Integra it would image more strongly and the focus would be more centered. With the Naim, the imaging is there as well, but it builds a larger soundstage, the orchestra extends beyond the speakers and further back as well.

In my listenings with John Mayers Where the light is live concert, I started with the open acoustic song of "Neon", where its mostly John by himself playing the acoustic guitar. His voice is up front and in front of the speakers and his guitar playing is deliberate and melodic. You can hear all the strings individually, and the bassier notes have weight, the tone is wonderfully organic. His voice is full whether singing or talking. You hear the quietest background noises as a woman says 'I love you' and he replies back. Later in the album the more traditional Blues song of "Everyday I have the Blues" retains that blues character and the bass and drums fill nicely. Again later he plays more of his traditional pop/rock music, and the songs are both lively and fun, and more popular due to their radio play. But I felt the live versions offer more of Johns personallity and less of the mainstream radio sound. I switched to Seal, yes, that song "Crazy" to get a sense of the Naims taste for synthesized electronics. I had to steal this CD from my wifes car, but I found that the synth sounds and bass machines were well recorded and sounded very good. The Naim is very well suited to both John Mayers deep voice and Seals vocal range, which can extend both high and low.

I moved on to Anne Bisson and Norah Jones. Both of the womens voices where very airy and delicate and offered up a sonic treat to listen to. Im less impressed with Annes song writing, but the sonic structures and her voice are very good. Either Album Come Away With Me and Blue Mind are good ones, I prefer the more hipper Norah Jones, plus she is more sexy, IMO. However the Naim loved putting female vocalist in front of the listener. And did so with all the delicacy that those voices needed. Piano and bass were wonderfully rendered as well.

Switching to rock music, I put on Incubis Morning View (CD) and Smashing Pumpkins Gish (vinyl). Gish is one of my favorite albums ever, and to have it on vinyl is a delight. I love the intro to "I am One", the play on the tom drums has always made me smile, and the vinyl version with the Naim is ever so organic and lively. But the best part is when the Pumpkins music goes from heavy distortion or quiet bass lines, and other sounds, you just get that nice black background before they roar out and turn up the sounds. Of course singer Billy Corgan isn't a sonic specialists, and the Naim is quick to point that out, but the fun and excitement that is rock music, is there in its full glory, and the Naim doesn't over smother it with that high-end gear sound, it just lets it rock! Same with Incubis, the Naim allows the lack of sonic bliss to be exploited, but keeps the music fun and pumping, bass lines rolling, guitar etching, and drum smacking - ROCK. A very fun listen. Double bass from Metallicas drummer Lars on the Death Magnetic album was fast and lively, and you could hear each and every hit. Guitars rolled out with weight and speed. Again not the best recorded album ever, but you just need to rock out sometimes, and why not to Metallica?

The Nait 5i is very good for my setup, and drives my Dynaudio X16s very well. I am very happy to have it. And look forward to adding a few remaining pieces to the puzzle.

Sorry for the long post.

Is it new or secondhand. If new, it will sound better after you've used it a while.

Its new, I have had it for about a week now.

Congratulations Dean!

Please keep us updated. I'm just starting to look at Naim gear. They make some really nice stuff. Thanks for the link.

Joe

Just picked up a used REL Strata III for a good deal, and set it up (roughly) with my F140s / Audio Research VS55 / Proceed AVP. It's really filling a void that I found on the F140s, at least in this room. Bass is solid, anchored, and not overbearing at all. As some say, the speakers seemed to open up a bit with the REL, and I don't feel that I am "missing" anything. Still have some tweaking to do to get seamless integration, but certainly on my way...

So far it sounds great. As good as digital has ever sounded to me. Vinyl still rules though. Listening to a 3 CD set ripped to ALAC of Handel's "Orlando" (baroque opera). Sounds really good.

They want to extend their bass, not increase it. That is, they want a flat frequency response that extends deeper than it did without the sub. Some people call it "more" bass because it is more. But not "more" in the sense of increasing the frequencies they already had above the reference level. More in the sense of adding additional frequencies they didn't have (or were lower than they should have been).

Well thanks all; I do kinda understand this "audio" thingee...so I get "blending" a sub. Does anyone think I was suggesting crossing-over at say 120, so you could turn your system, essentially, into a boom-box

It's probably just semantics...and that's fine; I'm clear on not wanting to nit-pick or bust chops. I just found the language curious. Call it "extend", or "round-out"...or whichever adjective many of you chose to you; those are all still noticeable. If you extend the low-end, that's noticeable; "rounding it out" too. The OP said he had blended the sub, to the point where the extra bass wasn't noticeable.

That just seemed contradictory to me, but it doesn't make him unique. That's why I don't really dig on a sub in 2-way. I know, I know...I've heard all the arguments, and I'm not saying I don't understand them; and to each his own. But I hear a LOT of people trying to "blend" their sub into the "unnoticeable" region; again I say, what's the point? Even the OP said it helps on 5-6 titles?

Really; I'm going to drop $2k to make 5-6 songs sound a little better than they do with my C1 Sigs? I say buy a speaker that has bass response you like, to begin with...and save yourself all the integration headaches. Just my .02

CD

Well, I dropped $900 on a sub to go with my Contour S1.4s. I'd say it improved far more than 5 or 6 songs. In fact, my wife noticed how much it improved my recording of the Bach Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin, noting how much more natural and woody the instrument sounds and how it has more presence within the listening area!

The improvement is across the board. Not just better bass, but also better imaging, detail, and more refined midrange. The trick -- as you noted -- is proper integration, but that should be a one time set-it-and-forget-it task.

Same thing for me. It improves a lot more than just adding the lowest octaves. But for 5 or 6 songs I hear the lowest octaves (kind of like the bass the C4's offer).

That being said I had my sub long before I ever heard a Dynaudio speaker.

Awesome Dean!
I have decided to change basically all of my electronics to Naim. I have on order The NAC 282 pre-amp, NAP 250/2 amp, Hi Cap power supply and Stageline phono-pre.

Also in the pipeline and as soon as I can sell my current DAC and transport I will be adding the Naim DAC and Unitiserve.

It will be a little while before everything arrives due to current inventory levels in the US, but I am really looking forward to the big change.

Buddy

Wow, great setup. I wish I had gone for the 282, but it was out of my budget. I'm at a 202/HC/NAPSC/250, plus the ND5.

Let me know how you like the StageLine. I am using a Simaudio Moon 110LP. If I do another round of upgrades next on the list would be turntable, cartridge, and phono stage. However, I think my wife likes the idea of getting a pair of C1s sometime.

I will definitely let you know about the Stageline and your wife definitely has great taste in speakers. The C1's would be very awesome indeed
I know that my C2's are not leaving my house!

Your new 250 will not disappoint with those C2s. It's the amp that just keeps on giving. It doesn't even break a sweat with my S1.4s on the most bombastic orchestral music I can throw at it. Seriously, I can't even get the case more than lukewarm.

Hi Buddy,

You and dean got me thinking about some Naim gear. I'll have to learn about their DACs and Unitserve. It all seems new to me. They look really nice. Congratulations!!!!

Joe