Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 528

I was set on getting S1.4s in the future, but when I heard the 160s, I knew that those would be my next pair of speakers, and probably the last pair for a long time. I prefer having monitors over towers in my room. The 260s however were fantastic, and the 160s were just as good, with slightly less lowend.

I doubt it, the 3.4 sounds different enough from the 260 for taste to play a factor, I preferred the 260 on a short listen but an AB with the 3.4 with the same equipment may yet yield a few surprises.

And the 260, 3.4 and the original c1 are all in the same ballpark money wise so it's really a matter of preference but Dynaudio seems to be saying with their pricing that the 260 has been given an upgrade and is now playing at the Contour level.

I felt the 1.4's treble wasn't as transparent and refined as the 260 i heard, the big difference really is in the treble i feel.

The Contours are somewhat darkish ( only when COMPARED to the new Focus line ), and more like the older Dynaudio designs. While the new Focus series just seems clearer, fresher, more open, more air up on top.

To put it another way, for me the contours are like a rainforest, the Focus like a mountain top.

Hi there I have I little nipper so these tweeter protectors could stop my crying if he pushes my contours in 1.4 looks like they would fit. How can I get a pair ? Many thanks
Dave

Yes, I really do have 'em. Way to jump into conclusions without even knowing what speakers they were, though

But yes, while the speakers obviously aren't anywhere near as good as the C1s, they're no slouches either (JBL three-ways, at least 10 years old). They give my PSB Alpha B1s and Audience 42s quite stiff competition. I haven't listened to them enough to say if they're better or not, but enough to say that they're pretty nice indeed. So, quite acceptable sound at literally 1/640 of the cost of my C1s? Only 1/45 of even my budget champions, the PSBs? You can't say that wouldn't make you pause for a moment if it happened to you. Or if it doesn't, you're must be quite a wealthy person

Obviously such crazy bargains are far from the norm, though I've heard it happening before, just not to anyone I know personally. Why am I never so lucky?

Another thing though. Something odd with either my C1 system's USB DAC or my netbook, or the combination thereof. Sound through them is kinda of subdued - it seems overly (and I don't use that word lightly) laid back/dull/lifeless in the mids and highs. I can't figure out why, because it wasn't like that before. When I was first testing the JBL pair I thought the laid back thing was just them, but then I switched the C1s back and the same issue was still there. I haven't used the DAC for a while before now, because I normally input audio via HDMI. I guess I need to do further testing to pinpoint the culprit.

Well when you read reviews they say how dyn first marketed the tweeter as an esotar2, but later called them esotec2 tweeters. Both stereophile and 6moons says this. So that might be a huge reason you feel that way. Imo, I thought the bass ease more communicative like the excites, but with much better bass, and didn't have the mid bass overhang the older focus had. I also felt the tweeter offered more sparkle and transparency. I love my X16s, but now I wonder if the 160s should be my next move over DM2/6s as surrounds.

They were 5 euros at the thrift store; I didn't feel like I was out too far on that limb.

CD

Oh, I think you'd actually be surprised by what people bring to "recycling" centers. Lots of quite high-value stuff sold for ridiculously low prices each day. And my brother gets sort of first dibs and discounts since he works there at the moment, to boot

Anyway, seeing as I currently seem to have a serious problem even funding myself a new pair of running shoes to replace the totally worn out pair I have, selling the C1s has never seemed more tempting

I dunno, it seems you prefer complaining more about the speakers more than you do listening to them. And this is done on a consistent basis on a pro Dynaudio thread. When you compare c1's to a 5 euro second hand speaker, to me that almost comes across as trolling.

It's a public forum and everyone can post what they want but all your posts contain complaints upon complaints. You stopped asking for advice a long time ago and switched to moaning about your purchase and Dynaudio pricing and why is it so expensive for what you get blah blah blah.

The easiest solution really is to sell them, and since you paid so little for them you can still get a decent return on them but then again you "don't want to sell them" even though you "can't afford them" since that would just make you "feel worse" but you have "ears of wood" anyway so it's "all the same" to you. Huh??

Seriously TVIH, just sell em and listen to cheap speakers that you no longer have to second guess. You'll be much happier that way.

Actually, I probably listen to my speakers - no matter which pair at any given time - more than just about anyone else in this thread. For example, I'd say 9-14 hours per day most days for the last year and a half, whether music, movies or whatever. By comparison I've posted 6 (7 including this) messages in the last 6 weeks if I counted correctly

Also... both are home speakers, outputting sound, thus comparable. It doesn't matter that they cost 5 euros in that sense - they most certainly cost much more when new, and still sound as good as a new pair would. And probably no one would complain about the comparison if I had given the price of a new pair (not that I even know it, exactly) rather than the bargain pair.


Well, I guess can call it complaining. It was meant more as self-reflection regarding my hobby and its value. I suppose a forum where people constantly seem to have thousands to throw around with little regrets is the wrong place for that. And although I'm sure you know this, it's not really about Dynaudio pricing, but the potential cost and diminishing rate of returns of the hobby as a whole regardless of brands.


Perhaps it is indeed easiest - though selling something like C1s here isn't a given. The high-end audio circles are quite small indeed. Not a lot of potential buyers, especially with today's economy.

But why so ? Even with all my supposed "trolling", I think I've still made it clear the C1s are the best speaker I've heard. Yes, even with my much-aligned ears of concrete. And I've also mentioned that because of that, they've been my dream speaker for what, eight years now? Just like a Porsche 911 is my dream car, even though a much less expensive car would get me around quite well, too. Luxury versus practical requirements.

And additionally I have this stupid way of getting "emotionally attached" to stuff I like, such as speakers - as I'm sure I've mentioned at some point (or several), it's the reason why I won't ever sell my first hifi speakers, the JPW Mini Monitors, even though they don't sound all that good by modern standards, even for their (original) price. Rather than just remember them fondly, I prefer actually keeping them around - though obviously in their case, with little monetary value, it's not a big deal anyway.

So no, though I might have to in the end, despite financial issues I wouldn't want to sell the C1s - even if I also like "crummy 5 euro speakers that no one with working ears could withstand for more than 5 seconds without head imploding or exploding"

In any case, it was never my intent to aggravate anyone, so don't worry - I'll just take my complaints and trolling and leave you to your more civilized and socially acceptable discussions.

We never marketed the new tweeter as an Esotar 2, more like a baby Esotar2 but I think they took it out of context. The new Focus tweeter is closely derived from the Esotar 2 and uses a Neodymium magnet structure. Everything about the Focus changed from the old Focus, even the cabinet so this is truly a huge step up from the old Focus.

I am finally going to put my two cents in and tell you that the old saying of garbage in, garbage out is always true and your defense of the inexpensive amplifier driving the C-1's is completely baseless. The C-1 is too much speaker for that amplifier and the C1 is revealing the issues associated with using a lesser quality amplifier. You are not realizing the full potential of the C1's hence the reason why you are having this dilemma.The C1 is one of the best speakers in the world, period, and to not feed a speaker of this caliber the best signal possible is not doing it justice.

Thanks for the clarification, I figured even when I read that in the reviews, that they meant there was some trickle down tech from the esotar2, not the same tweeter as the confidence line or sapphires.

Right, one last "rant". Let's make it record-length while at it...


With all due respect, there's no garbage being put in or out, literally or figuratively. And as I've said many times, yes, the C1s are superior in sound quality compared to my other speakers. In no shape or form have I ever denied that. They are indeed the best speakers I've ever heard, where many similarly priced or even more expensive ones have left me uninterested. But they are simply not nearly as good in bang for buck as the PSB Alphas or the Audience 42s for that matter, both of which are already very nice to listen to - I don't see how anyone can contest that with a straight face (or without skewed priorities). Even though I find the B1s and the A42s quite comparable to each other, I don't regret buying the A42s at all though they cost two and a half times what the PSB did, because they still weren't all that expensive (compared to, say, my computer purchases), and they've served me well for going on nine years or something now.

And in fact the whole "needs a better amplifier" thing only serves as a point against the C1s or any other expensive speaker when talking about bang for buck, since you're looking at spending even more money. Would say, the Nait XS improve things over my current options (mainly the Puccini)? Sure, it's possible as I've said many times before, but that'd cost an extra two thousand, and yet the gain would still be miniscule compared to speaker upgrades. So I'd be going arse-backwards in the wrong direction where bang for buck is concerned. What's the point of spending even more to get a slightly better sound, when it's already established that I quite enjoy "lesser" systems too and am suffering from a lack of finances?

Furthermore, it's actually downright funny (yet sad at the same time) that the Puccini seems to be held so substandard here. Meanwhile a similarly priced Nait 5i is all the rage - and no one calls it "inexpensive" like it's a derogatory thing. Pff. The Puccini can most definitely handle the wattage and current requirements at my lowly listening volumes (if you play at 100dB in a concert hall, your mileage might vary). It's always been quite a liked unit in reviews and user opinions. Has anyone here actually even listened to the unit, and specifically with Dynaudios? If not, what basis does anyone even have for saying it is inadequate? Always everyone saying to listen to gear, yet I've seen so many saying the Puccini is holding me back without anyone - to my recollection at least - ever saying they've actually listened to one. I could say your attack against my amplifier is even more baseless than my defense of it if you haven't listened to it yourself. And don't forget - I've heard the C1 in a setup costing over 20k total, assembled to match by a long-time, well-respected Dynaudio dealer - in a better room than mine, to boot. Difference in sound quality to my setup? Well, let's just say that even if I had millions, I see no reason to pay that much for a C1 stereo system even though I would upgrade my current electronics at that point, obviously. And if I don't sell the C1 and if my finances finally improve, I'm not saying I've totally discounted a used 5i or XS at some point as it is if I find them to be a noticeable improvement once I get one to test - as much as I like the Puccini, the lack of remote is annoying, and that's more a reason to "upgrade" than sound quality is. But currently the situations is that any upgrades are completely impossible at least prior to the end of the year unless something major happens in the income department.

At the end of the day my current "C1 problem" actually stems not from an insufficient amplifier, but from listening to what other people tell me, instead of just trusting what I know of and for myself, even if my experience isn't as varied as that of some - only I know myself and my limitations/preferences/usage, after all. As anyone can find out by looking at my pre-C1-purchase messages in this thread, I was happy and content with the Puccini + Audience 42s as my primary music system (and with the PSBs in my surround setup), save perhaps the desire for a better subwoofer to round out the bottom end. And I still would be, but the forum with all its high-end praise managed to sway me into getting the C1s even though I knew all along it doesn't really make sense even if they indeed were, and are, my dream speaker (a major factor in why I got swayed by "outside influences" to begin with). Sadly fulfilling a dream can be quite inconvenient if it happens at the wrong time. Sometimes it's just better to settle for what is already good enough rather than overextend trying to improve.

But frankly this whole "discussion" won't lead anywhere, it's been seen enough times already. It's either go with the herd or be told off. It seems to be for the best that I depart. Clearly no one will gain anything from me staying.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Mick again. I just installed a Simaudio 750D in my system and my Sapphires sound so much better it's almost like I bought new speakers.

My previous source was an Oppo BDP-95, no slouch at all, and I'm not doing anything fancy to get to the files to the Sim -- just a MacBook Pro and iTunes for now, but the DAC is unbelievable. To me, it seems any issues we have with the Sapphire, or other Dyn speakers, seem to be ones we create with upstream components or room placement.

Everything about my Sapphires has improved: clarity, soundstage, imaging, bass response, you name it. They were reproducing everything available, and now there's more available. I would never say they "need" better components, but if you feel your Dyns are lacking, try improving the rest of your system when you can afford to. And if that's important to you.

VT and Mick, I'm a firm believer in that our Dyns can only benefit from improving the source and the amplication. Very Important as far as I'm concerned. I realize that I express my beliefs in what's driving my systems a little bit too much. But, I feel strongly about this subject. I've driven my C2's on both BAT VK-6200 (multi-channel amp), and an Ayre V1xe. Both have delighted me to no end. Before I got the BAT, I had a B&K stack in my system. And that was OK until I could afford to buy the BAT amp. But, when I did upgrade to the BAT, man was it an upgrade. My soundstage improved. It became more dimensional, wider, base became tighter, and it felt more at ease while still maintaining, and even becoming filled with more impact. Friends of mine frequently ask me what they can do to improve the sound quality of their systems. And none of them take my recommendations when my response is "upgrade your source and amplification." Well, anyway, that's all I have to say about the issue. Happy listening fellas!

I'll just add another +1, and then some, on the importance of what comes before the speakers. I think the idea of putting all your eggs in the speaker basket is just plain not optimal, and mostly a waste of what was spent on the speakers. A system is more than the sum of its parts and there has to be balance. I feel I'm just getting to the point where my system deserves better speakers, but that is after starting with good ones and then following up with significant upgrades to electronics and source.

Tvih, I've mentioned this before...but am a firm believer in the effects of monetary concern on your POV. I don't mean to be critical, because if anything I'm trying to get your back here; but you seem to be a guy looking for a reason to justifying dumping the C1s in favor of something else. No, I understand if you really wanted to...you certainly could. But you seem to measure your system against "lesser" a good deal of the time. How is this against PSB? How is this against Audience 42s? How is this against these 5-euro thrift-store JBLs, etc.

Take it from a guy who lusted after expensive gear for a long time, but kept himself confined to a modest budget, and mid-fi gear until about 5 years ago; my system cost increased about 10-fold, and it took some coming to terms with. My mom says she can never enjoy an expensive meal out, because she says she sees the bill and thinks of what she could have spent that money on instead. Everyone has a range they're comfortable at, and correct me if I'm wrong...but I think your C1s far outdistance your source and amp...as far as cost, yes?

I'm not picking on your Puccini, because I know you're fond of it; but I have to say, if you're not digging C1s something is "wrong". Either your gear upstream isn't up to the task, your room isn't...your ears aren't...lol; or maybe it just doesn't suit your taste.

Are they 640 times better than those thrift-store JBLs? That's impossible to quantify. You can't view your gear that way. I say "this is what I can afford...this is the best system I think I can put together at this price...and I would have to lose something if I were to step down". Those differences are subtle at this level; touch more air...a bit bigger soundstage. However, it's those little things that can make the difference between good, very good...and great. I myself, have gone from $2k to $5k on a piece, and expected astounding differences. Doesn't usually happen. It can lead to some initial letdown; but in the end, it is better...and you have to decide do you want better...and can you afford what it costs to get there? What's that extra air, or depth of soundstage worth? To some guys, they'd go from a $5k pair to a $10k pair; if they could afford it. If I couldn't afford it...no way I'd strecth for that last nth.

Also...you mention listening for 9-14 hours a day. You must be listening while working, surfing the web...checking email, posting on the board and such? I used to do that; sure, you get the music...but how critically can you be listening, when you're listening so casually as that?

Again, I'm in your corner...and I hope you keep posting, and don't run-off as you've suggested you might. The guys here are good guys, and we welcome all contributing members. But you must see their POV; no one is going to sit still while you constantly run down a damn-fine speaker.

As much as anything, maybe we all just see what you won't quite come to grips with; you'd seem to be happier...truly happier...with something else. That's enough of my dime-store psychology.

CD

And now for something completely different:

The Soundstage Global May 6 coverage of the Munich High End Show has pictures of a new Dynaudio Evidence speaker. Here's the text:

"Dynaudio was not playing their new Evidence Platinum loudspeaker, but they were displaying it in one of the Munich Order Center's large atriums. This update of the classic Evidence-series loudspeaker includes a new aluminum front baffle, new drivers all around, upgraded crossover components, and a reinforced cabinet. The price is not presently set, but, according to a company representative, is expected to be around 50,000€ per pair."

Maybe Mick, Tyler or another knowledgeable insider can tell us more ....

Riiight it's the forums' fault you bought speakers you couldn't afford...no one forced you to buy the c1's. As an adult you should be capable of making up your own mind

Wow I saw a picture of it, looks very interesting, like someone sheathed it in gunmetal. But the price can't be right...50,000 euro seems too low for an all aluminum cabinet unless it was a Temptation update and not the Master.

It depends one your goals what you spend. Heck Radio Shack Optimus 23's used to go on sale in 1980 for $99/pr and the Mimimus7's were $49/pr.

That said Wilson Alexandria's north of $150000 and Dyns new Consequence at $70000/pr are superstars (better to my ear than Master Evidence).

So what's my point? you can spend whatever you want to improve the sound in your system and no the Wilson is not 1500 times better than the Shack but better. The $149900 is up to you.

As for me give me the C1's and a JL Audio F112 and that combo is hard to beat.

But I do dig the C1s! This entire situation wouldn't be any sort of problem if I didn't - I'd just get rid of them, problem solved. But since I DO really like them because they are awesome speakers, that's exactly why it's not as simple as "sell them and be done with it". Not to me. To someone with a more practical mind it still might be.

One thing is that if I suddenly landed a steady job - therefore ridding me of financial issues - shortly after selling them, I'd bang my head against a wall forever or alternatively jump off my 4th floor balcony (well that's an obvious dramatization, but you get the point). I mean let's face it, 3200€ or so isn't all that much for a person with a steady job and no others - that is, family - to support. For someone who just spent his last money for this entire current month on a pair of running shoes, it instead seems like a lot of money


When I'm surfing and such, obviously it isn't very critical listening. Especially in those situations the PSBs can often do just as well as the C1s because even when I do pay attention to the music, it's simply "good enough". And thus the PSBs are back on my computer desktop.

But probably the most common uses are games and movies/series, and sound is obviously one of the key components in both of them. But even there, the difference isn't earthshattering, even though certainly present. The biggest difference can of course be found when doing nothing else but listening to music. That is something I don't do all that much these days - because when I do, it tends to be so relaxing that with my "chronic fatigue" I tend to fall asleep before finishing an album!

And all this is exactly why I mentioned my usage patterns, and especially brought it up in discussions before this one. It's my style of usage that a lot of time makes the C1s sort of unnecessary as far as enjoyment of sound is concerned. If one never uses speakers for anything other than dedicated music listening, it's quite different from my varied styles of usage. In a sense it's a bit like driving that dream Porsche when you're just going to the grocery store - luxurious, but not really necessary to get the job done satisfactorily.


Anyone interpreting me as simply running down the C1s frankly isn't doing a very good of reading my posts thoroughly, though Dynaudio is still my favorite brand, and C1 is still my dream speaker, and I don't see either point changing in the foreseeable future. My dilemma in itself is in no way meant as an attack on either.

And frankly if I could play music louder - in other words, if I lived in a separate house instead of an apartment - the C1s would live more up to their potential. All their good qualities just shine through a lot more when you're not playing at low volumes. But this will not be possible in the near future.


It's not the forum's fault - and I never said it is! - in the sense that obviously I made the decision in the end and have to own up to it and its consequences. But when people discuss these things in a place like this, obviously there's generally a tendency to believe what the majority is saying - in the case of A42 vs higher-up Dyns, that I'm missing out on something "critical". So despite my nagging doubts I made the jump. Improvement in quality? Most definitely. Increase in bang for buck? No. Something "critical" added that was missing? No, merely improvements of varying degrees all around. Just as I had thought beforehand, but for some reason didn't trust myself enough to act accordingly. Usually I do. It's also why I'm not exactly rushing to upgrade my amplifiers as well - I'd just be repeating the same "error" I already made once. By comparison when I got the A42s, it was because I felt I actually wanted/needed something better now instead of being OK waiting for even years to possibly upgrade.

As far as being able to afford them. When I bought them over a year ago, I could actually afford them. Well, not entirely comfortably, but quite bearably nonetheless. It's more recently that the finances have become a real issue. Like this new apartment being more expensive than the old one together with a slight drop in income and job plans for the spring unexpectedly falling through. Crap happens in today's economy.

Sigh. And this post ended up entirely too damn long once again I have always had a problem in making short-but-to-the-point posts because people keep misunderstanding me, so I keep trying to elaborate - but it never ends up working.

I'm going to approach this differently. The fact that you are cash strapped and putting together enough money to buy running shoes tells me that you SHOULD sell the C1's now. Not next year or next month but right now. Personally, being cash strapped and having expensive audio gear does not go hand in hand. Sometimes you have to take two steps back before you can take another step forward.

And did I read this right that you have two other speakers, PSB and A42's? So you have 3 sets of speakers and no money for running shoes?

Not trying to be mean but just dealing the the reality of the situation. I'm sure some or maybe all of us have been there before, I know I have. I've sold all my stuff to move in with a buddy until I could rebuild my wealth and move back out on my own again.

I'm sure we spend our time here as we all share a love for the same thing but sometimes you just have to put certain things on hold until times are better. This hobby is great but its not worth that.

My 2 Canadian cents worth.

On some other news, my friend that I was helping get a new system finally bought a pair of X16 and a Moon i1 to power it with. Nice simple system which should bring them many happy years of audio bliss.

As said, the situation would be easier for a more practical mind. I know what would make sense to most people in my situation, but actually doing said thing is a different matter.

I have "a lot" of speakers (two pair of PSBs too actually), but selling them would just be a setback in the long term, because I'd lose money in the progress due to having to re-buy them and of course not getting as much money from selling them as I spent to buy them the first time. As much as it might seem different given my current situation, I try to think in the long term. Long term, I want to keep the C1s. And the other stuff I have and use. And I use them a lot every day. In fact a whole lot more than I do the shoes - and running shoes specifically aren't technically any more necessary than speakers are. So anyway, selling the speakers isn't necessarily a good idea in the long term, even if it gives a bit of money short term. I mean, it's not like I'm about to starve or end up homeless, after all. Things should get a bit easier come August or September, so mostly it's a matter of toughing it out until then. I know I probably seem crazy to everyone else, but that's nothing new

Oh, and I am already selling the AVR that the newer Yamaha replaced as well as a secondary 32" LCD TV since they aren't being used anyway, but unfortunately I won't see the money from those immediately.

tvih-
I get what you are saying. I do. My opinions on some audio theory have been stated repeatedly on this thread, so you know how I feel about "upstream components" making speakers sound "like new".

What's amazing in this day and age is that you can get a great pair of speakers for 1k, or sometimes less. If they are set up in a well treated room, the sound can be amazing. I think as you go up the ladder in speaker build, you hit a law of diminishing returns where huge investment of $$ is needed to moderate/mild gains. In your situation, you probably casually listened to the older speakers and thought, wow, they sound pretty good. Does my speakers sound 100 times better (or whatever) and came to the conclusion that, no, they didn't. Here's the rub. If you sit and listen (nothing else on, sit, close eyes, and listen) you will probably hear a pretty big difference in the nuances of the sound (bass may be tighter, tonal quality over all more balanced, imaging may be better). But if these attributes are not that important to you, than you won't hear a major difference. Not a big deal.

Buyer's remorse. Isn't it a lovely thing? I would say this.....if you cannot enjoy the speakers due to the guilt of the $$ spent, then cut your losses and sell them for what you paid (or near). Don't keep them for the wrong reasons.....name recognition; bragging rights; emotional attachment; etc. However, if you feel one day you may listen to music more closely, and the buyer's remorse goes away, and you feel the incremental gains were worth the extra money, then keep them.

Oh yeah, and don't stress about this forum or what anyone else tells you. There's a lot of "snake oil" out there, and people who believe in it will emphatically defend their position. As you touched on earlier....you can see it. Name recognition is very important....more so than specs; measurements; or, in some cases, reality.

The Evidence Platinum Concept Study is an Evidence Temtation utilizing all new versions of the tweeters and drivers(bass drivers are 7 inch instead of the 6.5 inch in the current Temptation) and crossover components housed in three separate chambers just like the current Temtation. The baffle of the middle section housing the tweeters and mid range drivers is a 40 mm thick piece of anodized aluminum, cabinet sections are made up of an ultra dense material and in the case of the piece at Munich, covered in a Piano Lacquer finish. If given the green light, we would see this speaker at CES but since it is just a concept there is no guarantee. The 50,000 Euro estimate was for the pair.

"Sweet" is the word I've seen used to describe the Contour, or "smooth", "mild"... But I guess darkish is also right on. Maybe if I was 15 or 20 years younger I would prefer a fresher Focus to a darker Contour, I don't know.

Sometimes I wish the S 1.4 would more airy, fresh, open, but on the other hand I also like their 'sweetness' very much.


Very good analogy.

Thanks, one of my better ones methinks

Dark is not a characteristic I would have used to describe my S1.4s. Maybe it's my setup (room, source electronics). In fact, I wouldn't mind a slightly warmer, fuller midrange for classical music playback, if I could do that without loosing detail and staging.