Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 533

Your electronics are certainly fine for the job, but sometimes matching "A" with "B" doesn't yield the "C" the listener was hoping for. Clearly a lot of people here prefer different manufacturer's components with their Dyns, because we all have subjective preferences. Many modern electronics measure well, but they don't sound the same, especially not in each listener's room.

If you aren't happy with the synergy and are set on keeping the Naim gear, I'm sure you will find many people happy to take the C1s off your hands. At least you're happy with the Special 25s you already own, right?

Ok. Thanks for the info. Do you think an older Audience 120C would blend in decently with my older Focus 220's? I have also considered that option. I'm thinking maybe i'm better off with the old Contour as far as matching goes.

That's right; and everyone has a different definition of what involving means to them. Look, I never disliked the 25s when I had them; hardly. They were a bit tough to tame, and I felt like they were ultra-revealing of sub-par material...in a way that was impossible to listen to. They also...often...brought an unconscious grin to my face, and made me just say "damn" to myself.

But the first thing that struck me...in my room, my system, with my ears...was what I would call the layering of sound with the C1 Sigs. It gave the music depth...and height even...because I had a better sense of where the instruments were, and they were scattered around the soundstage in a way that was missing with the 25s. I didn't realize it was "missing", until I heard the C1s. So that's not to say the 25s were all of a sudden bad; but that layering struck me as involving, and that's what makes me like them better.

The C1s don't have the visceral impact of 25s; they might not sizzle with Electric Rock in the same way. Maybe traits like that involve you. But I will never subscribe to the fact that 25s are "exciting", and C1s are "boring". The C1s wow me all the time. It's just a matter of what floats your boat. Both great speakers, so no one's the worse for whichever pair they choose.

CD

Exactly.

I would try and find a Focus 200C to match perfectly or go with the older Contour center, I would not go to the Audience center.

True, this certainly seems like a case of non compatible products. Luckily the 25s work well with Naim and will stay. Feel free to PM me if interested in the C1s. It's still going to be sad to let them go but that's the way it'll have to be..

I find it very surprising that a Naim 552/250 wouldn't work with C1s. Did you let them run in for 300 hours? I have a 202/250 with a pair of S1.4s and that is a great match. I will have a pair of S3.4s sometime next week for audition. I suspect they won't leave my listening room once I have them there. They may get an upgrade to the Esotar2 down the road.

Dynaudio Evidence Masters & Center Rosewood

If anyone is interested these are on Audiogon for 58K

Pretty ridiculous. I actually live down the street from the seller. Don't know him, but should get a hold of him just to listen these babies. I'd never buy them unless it encompassed 10% of my annual income.

Maybe 10% after taxes.

The Confidence series is deceptively hard to drive, my theory is the ddc technology while keeping the signal cleaner and less affected by room interaction also robs the speaker of some boundary loading and reflections. It's like a plane travelling without a tail wind.

I think you're right about the Confidence, and particularly the C1s which need a pretty powerful amp to get going, although the Specials 25s are even harder to drive.

And I'm not surprised that Naim isn't a good match. I always think of them as a server/CD player company, although the integrated amp that I've heard sounded nice. What's surprising is preferring the sound of the 25s with the Naim electronics over the C1s.

I think you are wrong about Naim. They are not primarily a CD/server company. They have been building excellent analog electronics for decades and are at the top of that game. They do both equally well. Naim is generally a great match for Dynaudio. That has been stated time and time again by many fans of both brands.

On top of that the Naim NAP 250-2 is a very solid performer. While it provides some 145 WPC into 4 ohms (80 WPC at 8 ohms), it also has a 400 VA transformer and can run stable at 2 ohms for extended periods. I just can't imagine that the NAP 250 is not enough to handle the C1s, or even the C2s. I know it's not the same, but my NAP250-2 barely gets lukewarm running my S1.4s at loud volume on orchestral music. I'll have it running S3.4s soon enough, and have no doubt it will be more than enough.

If a Naim 552/250 isn't cutting it with C1s I think there is something else wrong. It might be just that the listener doesn't like that sound, but it is not for lack of power, low noise floor and quality of electronics.

Hi Guys

I just did a review of Bryston's little 2BLP Pro (60W into 8 Ohms /100 into 4 Ohms) in place of my 4BSST (300W into 8 Ohms /500W into 4 Ohms) powering my 25s, actually did a pretty decent job.


http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106516.0
"So how does this little 12 year old 60 watt 2BLP pro hold up these days running a pair of Dynaudio Special 25s with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms and a sensitivity of 88dB/2.83V/m, using the BCD-1 as a source and the BP25 as the pre with balanced Canare L-4E6S Star Quad balanced audio interconnects throughout, well there is more than enough power to get the Dyns cooking. I was surprised with the control it had over the 25s bass drivers the bottom end being very well defined, tight and deep. The upper midrange and treble was clear and overall imaging, width and stage depth was spot on, this is an amp that likes to boogie and I was able to reach high enough volume levels without feeling it ran out of steam in a 10' x 15' room, adding a 15 Velodyne helped out even more making the overall presentation bigger than the whole of its parts.
But as fun as the 2BLP is, reinserting the 4BSST showed up the 2BLPs lack of sophistication, the overall sound becoming less immediate (nervous), more laid back, tiny nuances with regard to harmonics made instruments and vocals more natural and real, also increasing the volume above what I considered comfortable with the 2BLP was not an issue with the 4B, one could keep advancing the volume way past reference with room to spare without flinching.

In direct comparison to my B60 (SST with the more recent output transistors) the 2BLP pro/ BP25 combo with balanced connections had a lot more volume, the pots on the 2BLP were only half way at 12 o'clock and the BP25 between 9-10 o'clock to reach more than adequate loud listening levels, the B60 ran out of steam around 2 o'clock when powering the Dyn25s but overall the B60 presentation sat somewhere between the 2BLP and the 4BSST, the 2BLP being slightly more if I could say solid state in nature.


Just a point, the B60 and 2BLP both started with the same output devices, one Motorola 6521& 6522 per channel I believe, some later B60s just prior to the SST configuration in 2001 could have their output transistors upgraded (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90680.0 ) to the more current ones, not to sure if this can be done with later model 2BLPs but it might be worth looking into, nor do I know if the newer 2BLPs might have in-fact followed suite.




Overall though the 2BLP pro remains a versatile little amp and might be regarded by some as an entry-level amp, but it's not as an entry level amp, depending on ones needs it's just a smaller Bryston, with its build and construction on par with its larger brethren it holds its own.

Music
Feist The Reminder
John Surman/ Jack DeJohnette Live in Tampere and Berlin
Fluke Six Wheels on My Wagon
Mickey Hart Planet Drum

Robert
Toronto, Ontario"
[/quote]

You're right about the power amp, it drives both the 25s and the C1 easily and the cds3/552 are dead quiet with the background but it's just not involving...I can't describe it better than that. Maybe if one has never heard what a naim system can deliver in terms of musical insight and the magical feeling of actually being there past the recording in the actual moment the music was played, one could live happily with the C1/naim combo. Maybe it has something to do with the ddc technology as the 25s don't have it and do work fine with naim.

Fair enough. I have a 202/Hicap/NAPSC/250 and I find it very engaging with my Contours. I have not heard the C1s with it.

The c1's need a very powerful amplifier. Naim sounds good with Dynaudio particularly the Sapphire I hear but the c1 is a different animal.

I know the Naim is supposed to be a powerful amplifier but I think the c1 needs at least 150 watts solid state or 150 watts tube to start coming alive. It sounds fine with less but I don't think you're experiencing it's full capabilities with lower powered amplifiers.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with you here, the Special 25 is easier to drive than the c1, I once did a direct AB test with the S25 and c1 on a Plinius integrated amp and the s25 had more volume at the same volume level. Add the hotter treble and the s25 just sounds louder and more aggressive.

So, it needs to be played at over 100dbs to start coming alive?

Do I detect sarcasm there? Save it I'm not interested. Play with your spec sheets and amplifier theory all you want, these are my experiences and I'll take em over theory any day.

Nope. Just wondering how the number of watts has anything to do with "coming alive". Also, where the 150 value came from.

Remember, 95% of the time, you'll be using less than 1 watt with the C1's...except for peaks, where you may use a little more.

And it's not "amplifier theory"....it's electrical engineering.

Having a dedicated number of watts needed before speakers coming alive is amplifier theory.

I've heard C1 Mk II with a Octave V40 SE (40 WPC or so) and they sounded fantastic.

The Naim NAP250-2 has 140 WPC, so another 10 WPC isn't going to make the difference. I am not convinced the NAP250 isn't adequate -- power-wise -- to get the best out of the C1s. It's not just about WPC, but current, and the 250 has plenty of that to give (with its 400VA transformer).

yes, well that's the rub isn't it? music is full of peaks or hadn't you noticed above the test tones?

And I'm not espousing any theory, it's theory to you because you haven't heard what I've heard, to me it's experience.

Thank you for your opinion, i'll pass.

i know that Mick used to have the Octave V40SE and used them to drive his C1s.

Octa-Dyn has a V70SE, IIRC, and absolutely loves them with his C1s.

I have every confidence that I could drive C1s very effectively with my 70 Wpc C-J LP70S, given how well it works with my 3.4s.

By 150 watts, I was thinking more along the specs of the 8 ohm spec. I believe the Naim is 80 watts @ 8 ohms not 150?

I've heard the Confidence level speakers on different powered amplifiers, A Plinius, a Mcintosh, VTL, Bryston, T+A, NAD, they may sound fine on lower powered amplifiers but there's still headroom to be explored with a high powered amp.

No disrespect to Naim but it is not a high powered amp, it just isn't. It's too light, transformers too small, not enough heat sinks, this would be ok if it were a class d design but it isn't.

I've edited my comment earlier but I earlier wrote that the local Naim dealer does not show the Magico speaker line on his Naim amplifiers, and he feels they simply don't bring the Magicos to life, this from a direct dealer. He's had to borrow Lamm and Modwright mono blocks when he previews the magico.

My mistake. I thought C1s were 4 ohm speakers.

Perhaps you could, but in my experience 70 watts just wasn't enough for me. Now you've tried the c1 with your Conrad-Johnson have you?

They are 4 ohms not 8, when I referred to 8 ohms I was referring to the standard power settings amplifiers are usually designated at.

They are.

Exactly, then why are we talking about 8 ohm amps? Some aren't even as stable at 4 ohms for extended periods.

Like I said, I heard the new C1s on a Octave V40SE and there was no problem with them being lively in that setup.

Just specifications that's all, c'mon we all know when we refer to wattage we generally refer to the 8 ohm spec not the 4 right?

If you thought the c1 was lively enough for you with a 40 watt per channel amp then fine no one is disputing that fact. You have no problem with that sound.

But what makes you happy may not be enough for someone else right? I was just pointing out the fact that the Confidence level speakers are a hard load and in my experience the c4's I had became more alive and responsive with a more powerful amp.