Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 594

No problema; I said it might just be semantics.

WoW; really?? I love, love, love the ladies.

Well, I now have about 45-60 hours on the Esotar2 in my S3.4s and they're finally starting to sound well-balanced with all the music I'm playing. The first 8 hours were the worst. They sounded edgy and out of balance, but you could tell the improvements were there. Yet, I was starting to become a little skeptical that I had made a good purchase. As they have started to break-in I am hearing a more open sound, like a veil has lifted, better imaging -- more multi-dimensional, more accurate -- and improved detail/resolution. This is at least the equal of an upgrade as going from the S1.4 to the S3.4 was for me.

Musical quality has already vastly improved. I've been enjoying many old favorites, especially from classical music and noticing things I've missed in the past. Sometimes an instrument I didn't notice before, or some interplay of orchestration that wasn't as evident. Tonal qualities in voices are sweeter and smoother too. An unexpected improvement is how much better mono recordings sound. I've been playing some mono jazz albums from the 50s and just sound more open and expansive, more room filling.

At this point I am really glad I went this route -- so that I have the power and presence of larger volume floor-standers that I want for large scale orchestra music -- instead of staying with monitors and going to C1s. Not to mention, the total cost has still been considerably less than if I had gone to C1s.

Hi RaceTripper,

I am quite curious about your experience (I have S3.4 at home too). Could you point to the specific model of the tweeters that you used? Was it a direct drop-in or were some modifications necessary?
If anything I am looking for a bit smoother high frequency response from my speakers - I feel like with Esotecs there is some bumpiness that makes sound a bit edgy on the very top.

Thanks.

I got the E110s from the Automotive line. They were nearly a dropin replacement. All I had to do was swap the face plates.

The the S3.4s, you remove the lower woofer, remove the tweeter, swap the faceplates, and reverse the process. Nothing to solder, no changes to crossover or anything like that. Took me about 30 mins. total to do the install, and I left the speakers standing in place.

The break-in is rough, but they are sounding better all the time. It takes about 300 hours to fully run them in. I'm at about 60 hours.

Expect this to be expensive! Retail is about $1700 the E110s.

Thanks for a quick reply.
Here is what I found, is it something like it?

http://www.woofersetc.com/p-7800-e110-dynaudio-esotar-11-audiophile-tweeter.aspx

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "faceplate"?

Anyway, I would be curious to hear how they turn out after a few more hours in your system...

yes, for some reason I don't get the simple female vocal type of music. it's too polite and I'm rarely in the mood for that

coincidence has it that Kate Bush said this about the issue:
In an interview with Melody Maker magazine in 1977, she revealed that male artists had more influence on her work than females, stating: "Every female you see at a piano is either Lynsey de Paul, or Carole King. And most male music—not all of it but the good stuff—really lays it on you. It really puts you against the wall and that's what I like to do. I'd like my music to intrude. Not many females succeed with that."

the S3.4 has the Esotecs? that would explain it. I've heard both the Esotec and the Esotar in my system (different speakers though) and they're worlds apart. I'm assuming the Esotar 2's are even better. maybe you won't be blown by it but you'll feel something different in percussion instruments, they'll become more palpable, defined and life-like. what they have in common is that they're very smooth, not in your face but very relaxed.

Yes, the S3.4 has the Esotec. I ended up putting them in my Audience 72 after I installed the Esotar2. You have to go to the S5.4 to get Esotar2 in a factory configuration.
yes, those...you need two, so $1400

The faceplate is what you see on the front, and are what mount to the baffle. The E110s have the round faceplates that have to be removed, so they can be mounted on the odd shaped faceplate of the S3.4.

If you go down this road I can give you exact instructions for performing the installation, since I have been through it already.

if I have one problem with Dynaudio is the prices for replacement drivers. some guy I know bought an used pair of Audience 52s and the idiotic seller packaged them like they were nothing but pieces of lumber. the tweeters were damaged (dented domes) during delivery. the replacement pair would've cost more than the speakers themselves. interesting enough, they still sounded excellent.
if you look at the prices of OEM drivers made by Scan-Speak, Vifa, Seas etc, the most expensive, absolutely state-of-the-art ones don't cost more that $/EUR 300. I guess it's a policy of Dynaudio to prevents rip-offs. just buy replacement drivers, build an identical enclosure and xovers and you have a high-end speaker at 1/4 the cost no, sorry.

I assume your comment stems from our discussion of the Esotar2, and their expense. If so, I think this is an apples and oranges comparison. This is a set of replacement drivers that appear in speakers costing no less than about $8K/pair and up. If you want high end you pay for high end. It's that simple. If you think a driver should cost no more than $300, well then, you get what you pay for.

I disagree.

let's take an example. Sonus Faber doesn't manufacture their own drivers. I'm speaking from memory but I think that the Cremona uses Scan-Speak and Vifa drivers throughout. it costs ~20k. none of those drivers costs more than $300/unit. maybe you consider Vifa, Scan-Speak or Seas drivers to be compromise, poor-man choices but many (including Sonus Faber, I suppose) would disagree, they are considered among the highest-end out there. the simple look and feel of those drivers is superior to Dynaudio in most ways. my gut tells me that it's much more complicated to manufacture a driver of that kind.
I think it's the same policy that applies to replacement parts for cars. with some manufacturers the prices are outrageous and there are aftermarket parts costing a fraction that are basically not discernable from the "real thing". in some cases they are even better. sometimes, the replacement parts are made by third-parties and can be bought directly from them at 1/2 to 1/5 the price. this stands even for the most basic parts like ball-bearings or such. the manufacturer asks for that price just because, if you were to build a car from parts it would cost you x10 the price.
TBH, I really don't really care because I take care of my speakers. but guys like my friend who owned the A52's have to suffer from this, almost EUR 300/unit for those tweeters is outrageous, the A52s used to cost ~800 new. he never fixed them and I would've done the same. oh, and they require you to send the damaged drivers back too! needless to say, some parts probably get repaired and reused AND you get to pay P&P twice.
it's their right to choose this pricing policy for replacement parts but I don't agree with it.

and let me give you a counter-example. a friend of mine owns Raidho speakers (manufactured in Denmark too). he managed to blow one of the woofers. he sent Raidho a mail asking for repair cost but they never responded. two little profit involved, I think. fortunately, at the time they were using Audio Technology drivers. luckily, he got the idea to drop AT a note. they responded almost instantly. he received the repaired driver back in less than a week, free of charge, although he couldn't prove it wasn't his fault.
for what it's worth, the guy who sold me the Confidences (long-time Dyna fan) said that Raidho speakers are superior to Dynaudio in every way. also, MUCH more expensive, their current entry level bookshelf costs around 17k.
Edited by gn77b - 11/16/12 at 4:33pm

Sorry, I'm not buying your argument. For me it ended after your first paragraph for a very simple reason. My Dynaudio dealer is also a Sonus Faber dealer. When I was there I heard the $10K floor standing Sonus Fabers, with some records I brought in. I didn't think they stood up to the sound quality of my Contour S1.4, but in all fairness I didn't have my Contours there for a direct comparison. However, the Confidence C1 they had in the same room (not even Mk II) were better in every way. In fact, they slaughtered them. It wasn't even very close in my opinion. Even the Focus 260 sounded better There's your difference in cost of drivers. I'm not sure what it is one pays for with those SF, but it isn't sound quality of the Dynaudio class, IMHO.

OMG the AVS post editor is the biggest suck! Who ever picked it should be shot.

it's been a few years since a listened to SF speakers. it was at a show but it was the only system that I liked and I thought it to be comparable if not superior to all the Dynas I heard. nothing at that show was even close. I'm surprised you feel this way. I'd be perfectly happy with those speakers, such a smooth sound with deep and wide sound stage, completely detached from the boxes. very similar to Dyna sound actually. I don't recall the model but they were tall, slim and had a black finish. I'm not sure about the other drivers, but the tweeter was made by Vifa I think.
all I'm trying to say is that one has to pay that price only because they're replacement drivers and Dyna knows you need/want them. the finished product (S3.4's in your case) and the individual parts solt to you have very different profit margins. just as with most automotive manufacturers, you either replace the part or you scrap the car. and they know it.

I still don't agree with your reasoning, and still say comparing $300 replacement drivers to Esotar2 is apples and oranges.

Also, what I bought are not "replacement parts" anyway, as you seem to think. They are retail boxed product for automotive installations, not service parts. I just adapted them for use in my S3.4s.

Dynaudio is free to ask whatever price they want for they drivers. simply asking $1000 for a driver doesn't automatically make it better than a $300 one. trust me, I have an interest in DIY speakers and I pretty much know all the manufacturers. I have never heard of such prices for individual drivers. even the highest-end Accuton drivers are cheaper.
the profit margins of different manufacturers vary so much (by orders of magnitude) so yes, in this regard it is apples to oranges. sticking to the automotive example... no car maker makes their own bearings or spark plugs, they buy them from Timken, Denso etc. but if you are to buy the part from say Honda, you have to pay x3 the price and it is the exact same part. what justifies Honda to add the profit margin? the same things that justifies Dyna to ask a certain price for individual drivers.
also, remember that a large (read largest) portion of the profit for a completed speaker goes to the dealer but the drivers are bought directly from Dynaudio. this should put things into perspective a bit.
bottom line is: please be nice to your Dynas because you'll burst into tears when seeing the price of the replacement drivers

Well, I have no idea what Dynaudio charges for replacement drivers, since I've never had the occasion to buy them. However, if I were to need replacement drivers (i.e. service parts) for my Dyns, they would come from my dealer, not Dynaudio directly. I'm pretty sure Dynaudio has customers work with their dealers for service and parts.

But there's no reason to beat this to death any further. You and I just don't see it that same way, and it isn't really that important to me. I've never had a speaker driver go bad on me, ever.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Dynaudio don't sell OEM drivers to other manufacturers, unlike your examples of Scanspeak, Seas etc. Smaller numbers of units made specifically for particular speaker models would seem (to me) to explain the higher price compared to a 'driver manufacturer' selling volume to multiple customers where economies of scale come in to effect.

the same price. if I had speakers using your Esotar2 drivers and they blew they'd ask $1700.
I know about 4 cases.
1. guy plays loud music (very expensive speakers), surround cracks
2. guy plays loud music (very expensive speakers), surround cracks
3. guy uses direct-coupled amp and signal source goes bad (very expensive speakers) -> DC reaches speakers, voice coil fries
4. gn77b buys badly serviced amp, amp blows after 30 mins of use and decides to take woofer to audio hell (not so expensive, DIY speakers)

I know one guy who measured 110 dB at listening position. how that is possible I don't know. that combined with his musical tastes sounds like bad news.
unlikely with Diana Krall though

I play acoustic jazz and classical, and never at ear bleed volumes, and I use high qualify, high power amplification that isn't going to start clipping when I play large scale orchestral music. I think the risk of requiring replacement drivers in my system is very minimal. It isn't non-existant, but I probably have far greater chance of worrying about costs of getting a new car if someone totals it as I drive to work.

I wouldn't know about the effects of Diana Krall on speakers since I never play her music.

Hello Dynaudio owners,

I'm considering five Dynaudio monitors for my primary HT system and am debating between DM 2/6s, DM 2/7s, and the Excite X12s. From what I've read/heard, it seems that the DMs play louder but that the Excites are a bit more refined, are a little easier to drive, and have real wood veneers. I have a few questions for you:

Are both the cabinets and drivers in the Excites significantly superior to the DMs?

How do the DMs sound compared to the Excites?

How do the DM 2/6s sound compared to the DM 2/7s?

The other speakers I'm considering are 5 Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1s and 4 Focal Chorus 706Vs with the matching 700V center. Can anyone who has either of these compare them with either the DMs or the Excites?

Finally, will the Dynaudio monitors be enough speaker for my room? The system will be along a 10’ wall and face an 18’ long room with 12’ vaulted ceilings. The room is open on one side to another room that is 12’ wide and 18’ long with 8’ ceilings. The amp will be a H/K PA5800 (5 x 80 at 8 ohms and 5 x 110 at 4 ohms, all channels driven) and I will also add an appropriate subwoofer (probably an SVS).

Thanks in advance.

clipping resulting in blown tweeters is pretty much a debunked myth, it's heard about but never actually seen in flesh. and an amp has to be really crappy to clip anyway.
biggest enemy is the direct-coupled amp that can fry your woofers in a second without them making a sound. ironic thing is that you only find such beasts in high-end.
anyway, enough about this.

I have to tell ya...and not just being a fan-boy here; I hope your assertions and math are wrong. If I owned truly $20,000 speakers...and I found out they had $1200 worth of drivers in them (4 x no-more-than $300 per); drivers that I could just buy myself at Madisound...I'd be pretty disillusioned. It's a beautiful cabinet; but $18,800 worth (ok, there's the cross-over too...ICs, speakers terminals; how about we call the cabinet a cool $15k?)

Now, maybe I'm kidding myself; maybe...I doubt it, but maybe...Dynaudio drivers would only garner $200 on the open market; and as it turns out, I'm paying a comparable proportion for the cabinet of my speakers too. At least I don't have to have it confirmed, by going to a website...and having the msrp starring me in the face.

I think your argument about off-the-shelf drivers backfires. Sure, cheap replacements; but who wants to buy speakers based on that. "Hey, our drivers are cheap...but just think of the savings when you have to replace them". Sounds backwards to me.

I'm not sure what cheap replacement drivers means in this context. except for very few cases, drivers are not replaceable with different models. there are so many parameters at play that it simply can't be done: frequency response, interaction with the xovers, sensitivity. any of these 3 alone is enough to be a deal breaker. fitting a top of the line Scan-Speak tweeter to an Excite will make it sound like a PC speaker.

but if there's one thing I know is that parts generally are 1/5 the dealer's asking price. this is the profit margin in high end and it's explained by low production numbers.

I know how the drivers in the Audience 52 look like. they use a stamped basked. most manufacturers have similar drivers but once you go beyond a certain price you only see die-cast baskets. generally the switch from stamped to die cast is well-below EUR/$ 100. that speaker used to cost EUR/$ 800 new. the box is 18 mm MDF, no internal bracing, finish is vinyl and the xovers can be made for less than $50, they use the cheapest parts available. take into account the cost reduction due to the fact that they make the drivers themselves. all in all I'd say that it costs Dyna about EUR/$ 150-200 to make that speaker. it is the same with all manufacturers and it gets "worse" as you move up the product range. I'm not complaining, I chose this hobby and it's not something I can't live without.

this is the most expensive Scan-Speak tweeter: http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/scanspeak-illuminator-d3004/6640-00-1-tweeter-beryllium-dome/
I think the Cremona uses the Vifa XT which is much cheaper though it may be a more expensive Scan-Speak Revelator.
Edited by gn77b - 11/16/12 at 7:04pm

Read from the 6th paragraph ("I was very struck by the emphasis on visual qualities") and down in this.... http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/14300-Rmaf

Cost of components has very little to do with where they think their product will fit in the marketplace and thus what they can change for it. The cost of shaping people's expectations through marketing and clever psychology is the real cost.

I understand what you're trying to argue; but it's all backwards IMO. Your whole premise...your OP was...if there's one thing I don't like about Dyns, is their drivers cost too much to replace.

So you're saying you wish they used cheaper drivers, so they'd be less-expensive to replace? That makes no sense to me. Like saying...I wish my car was made with cheap parts, so the mechanic wouldn't have to charge me so much.

FWIW, I've hit mid 100db (105-106) plenty of times...for short bursts; knock on wood...never had a driver so much as hiccup. Maybe Scan-Speak, et al aren't quite as good as you think?

that is exactly what I was thinking....

another thing is how many of these driver manufactures build in china? we know dynaudio doesnt.

+1

Ah; the Kiwis have it all figured out, do they. No offense...but it's exactly this kind of thing, that hurts your argument.

Are we dumb? Of course the price of ANYTHING in the marketplace is based on shaping people expectations, versus the cost to make it; it's called Advertising and Marketing. In industries where there's fierce competition, you have to be careful though. If you decide your product is "worth" $100, even though it only costs $10 to make; all the other guy has to do is decide he's willing to be less greedy, sell that $10 thing for $50...and do a better job of convincing people his is every bit as good as yours, at half the price. Then you're out of business.

Yes; the hi-end world seems a bit insulated. We know all that; to point to this article, like it's some kind of revelation...is kinda silly.

I have not heard the Ascends, a buddy of mine that I trust a lot got some and compared it to his Paradigm Studio 20s, he ended up sending back the Ascends and felt the differences werent really there to make the switch. I would speculate that if he had had the Ascends and brought home the Studios, he might not have kept the Studios(but I cant say for sure). However he did buy some Dynaudio Focus 110s and kept them, I cant say its all connected, just making an observation.

I have heard the Focal 807s, I did prefer my X16s to them overall, but the Focal were nice, IMO the 706s are probably not gonna match up to the Dyns your considering, I say that because the guy that was trading in the 807s was buying DM2/6s because he felt the 2/6s were better overall and werent as fatiguing when listening to music for long periods.

The DM2/7s have a 3" voice coil and will be harder to drive then the other 2, a power amp, even an emotiva would be better then the HK probably. The X12s will have the superior SQ in terms of a refined sound that is smoother, more detailed with better imaging and more holographic. The DM2/6s will be close to that of the X12s, but IMO the presentation is a little more forward.

If you can find a pair of used X16s or old focus speakers, you would in a better position. If you were choosing between these only, Id take the DM2/7s as they will have good bass response, and overall very good speakers with more output.

But audiophiles have been programmed to think that more expensive equals better. If a $10,000 component and a $1000 component that were actually the exact same thing except for the pricetag and badge on the front... audiophiles will still automatically think the $10,000 unit is far superior. Selling something cheap in the hi-fi world is actually a handicap to its perceived quality.

thats not true, I havent found a cable yet that makes me want to pay $300 a pair to replaces my $60 pr of Blue Jeans cables.....