Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 595

First of all, the 20k price includes about $8k of dealer profit. Then there's another $2k of distributor profit. Then there's the cost of shipping the speaker from Italy. Plus R&D, sales & marketing, factory overhead, and manufacturing labor costs. Subtract all that stuff off the $20k. Probably leaves like $5k (maybe). Then out of the $5k, they have to pay for materials to build the speakers. I mean, if they put $5k worth of materials into a $20k speaker, I'm not sure they could make a profit on it.

take any of their speakers. call Dyna and tell them that you blew all the drivers and ask for the prices. then take it apart and look up the xover parts on Madisound. then go to a furniture maker and ask how much for a similar box. then add everything. add an overly optimistic 10% dealer profit. then subtract the result from the asking price of that speaker. you'll be surprised to see that Dynaudio actually gives speakers away as the result will be negative, meaning that they are losing money. which, obviously, is not possible.

I'm unable to explain it in a simpler way.

Scan-Speak are among the best (some consider them the absolute best) in drivers.

I own and like Dyna speakers too but I try to be realistic too.

oh, and about profit margins in high-end... it's generally much worse than your worst nightmare. this is a quote from a guy who is actually involved in the high-end business:

"Regardless of market, the mark-up between the BOM and the end-user price is around a factor 5. Most of that goes to the retailer. Then the distributor. The remaining pittance goes to the manufacturer."

I not only believe that the drivers in the Cremona are $300 each, I know it is the norm in the audio business. I'm so well acquainted with this fact that I stopped being outraged a while ago.

I replaced a more expensive set of Transparent Audio speaker cables in my system with a less expensive set of Naim Audio cables because I thought they sound better.

Thanks for the feedback. I've heard good things about the Sierra-1s, but I wonder if they might be a tad overhyped compared to Dynaudio. (I had a pair of Contour 3.3s, so I'm partial to Dynaudio.) I would consider the higher end Focal Chorus 800Vs and 800Ws, but they just won't work with my living room aesthetically. I've heard nothing but good things about Focal and they are efficient, but I'm afraid they might be a bit fatiguing. Right now I'm leaning toward the DM 2/7s or the X12, but I have some listening still to do.

The H/K I mentioned is indeed a separate power amp. It's about a decade old, made in the USA, conservatively rated, and nothing special, but it sounds pretty good for what it is and should have more than enough power for Dynaudio monitors.

I am certainly buying your totally unbiased opinion with you being a Dyn owner.

I agree to a certain extent...although, there are some of us who try our best not to fall into that trap. But there's only so much you can do to fight human instinct. As I've argued many times...it's not just audio gear that we do that with; so not just audiophiles who are "foolish" in this regard.

Yeah, I think you're right Jax; I was being short-sighted and over-simplified a bit.

I still say...just for my own comfort...I'd rather have a speaker, where the manufacture makes their own proprietary drivers; rather than use "off-the-shelf", where I could see the prices. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those drivers (at all, as I realize many fine speakers probably go precisely this route); but if you really think about it...and at the risk of sticking my foot in my mouth, by over-simplifying again...if all I'm doing is building the cabinet, and putting some other manufactures drivers and cross-over in there...makes me more of a woodworker than speaker manufacture.

IDK; I have and like Dynaudio, and I have and like Harbeth...both make their own drivers. Do the math, lol

And Jax, even though you're right in the picture you paint above (and probably unfortunately so, for us poor slobs who pay it); don't you think R&D, sales and marketing, overhead, labor costs, etc...at some point, don't those associated costs have to intersect with the profit a bit? In other words...do you mean to imply they build-in their expenses to the cost, AND like 50% worth of profit? In other words, I would think if the manufacture makes $8k on $20k, their 40% margin is to include expenses. Like they take their $8k, and like $800 of that is expense, and comes off the top, and they net the rest.

Hmm; what the hell am I talking about. Who knows; it is what it is. Either make your own speakers, or buy USA, lol.
Edited by CDLehner - 11/17/12 at 5:44am

Yeah, you're probably not wrong (I read this after I made the previous post, kinda along the same lines); I know the margins in other businesses, so it wouldn't surprise me here. I'm pulling it out my arse, but if I had to take a guess...I'd say it probably costs, what...20-cents to produce a gallon of milk? If that, considering the economy of scale. How's that mark-up? What's the "cost" of a gallon of gas; pack of cigarettes? How about a $100,000 Mercedes; what's that cost to manufacture?

It is interesting; but I'm torn between wanting to know, and really not wanting to know, lol. Kind of like the government; sometimes, I say I don't need to know how they do...just keep the country chugging along.
Edited by CDLehner - 11/17/12 at 5:45am

For the record, I've never heard them...although I am curious; but I have to agree, Ascend is "over-hyped". When I asked for recommendations on best monitor for around $1k...the Ascend groupies flocked to my thread! There was something kind of off-putting about it; like they were automatons or something, lol. Then the PMs came; not publicly, like they were trying to make a statement for everyone to see...but they were people privately warning me, to be careful about the hype. Now mind you...they didn't say "Ascend sucks, buy XYZ instead"; they just said be careful of the zealots.

Unsolicited, I started asking those people "well...what do you recommend then". The brand I heard most: Dynaudio! That resonated with me, because I had just read the stellar review of the X12 in Stereophile (Robert Reina, who was/is the magazine's budget monitor expert, and he called the X12 his new reference under $2k). Then I wandered in here, you a-holes convinced me to s-t-r-e-t-c-h my budget, and get Focus 140s instead; and the rest, as they say, is history.

Ultimately, I'm paying for their expertise, not really driver quality. They are experts at making speakers sound great. If they can do that with $20 in parts, sign me up. Would you buy a speaker with higher quality parts that sounds worse than a speaker with cheaper parts? Of course, higher quality parts usually do sound better anyway, so it's moot.

Like the old joke about the plumber that turns one screw to fix the problem and bills the customer $200. When the customer complains "hey, you only spent 5 minutes, you're over charging". The plumber replies "let me itemize that bill for you", Turnining the screw (labor) $5, Knowing which screw to turn $195.

Ha; I'll have to remember that in my line of work! I'm in the "computer biz", and my company bills me at $200/hour too. There's a 1-hour minimum, even if it only takes me 5 minutes to fix the problem. People complain...same $200 for 5 minutes of work, as above. I should say "don't think about the 5 minutes for me to fix it; think of it as how long it would have taken you to fix it, and the financial impact on your business" (having your computers down).

Of course, I think then I'd find myself out of the hi-end game...because my ass would be fired, lol. I often find, people really don't like it when you out-smart them.

So very true...

Im not that familiar with HK so I didnt realize that was a power amp, thought it might have been a stereo receiver or surround receiver.

the focals were nice, I did enjoy listening to them for a couple songs, but still preferred the smoother top-end of the X16s, so I figured that was what the other guy was experiencing. Ive never lived with them, so I cant say if theyre gonna be fatiguing or not over long periods, I took that the guy trading them in knew what he was talking about as we chatted for a while. Im sure the Ascends are gonna be pretty competitive to the Dyns youre considering as well, and its nice youre in SoCal, so san clemente isnt too far that you cant go to the factory and listen to them if you wanted to.

where abouts are you in socal? which dyn dealer are you working with?

Actually I approached that believing the Sonus Faber are high end speakers and that they should have smoked my Contours. When I first heard them I though the dealer had turned on the wrong speakers. Furthermore, it was just a casual demo. I had no agenda whatsoever. I was auditioning or buying anything. Now if I were to bring them home, let them play for a few days, and then sit down for a Sunday of listening to music, maybe I'd feel different, but first impressions weren't really favorable.

When I was on my speaker search I too heard the SF Cremora's and wasn't all that impressed. But I did do some serious listening to the creamora auditor 'm' and was very impressed. So much so those were the speakers I intended to purchase but was not in any hurry. Then I met that Tyler dude who convinced me into listening to some speaker called the C1. From that I decided to listen (had nothing to lose). Glad I did For my taste the SF was what I was looking for but never thought they could be bettered. Well Tyler's C1 demo proved me wrong. Since price was a problem at the time Tyler offered my a demo of the S25's and the 1.4's. I refused because the C1 sound was perfect for what I wanted and didn't want to say yeah I saved some $$ but what if. It's a little funny becuase the dealer I heard the SF's at now carries Dynaudio too. Someday I should go back there and compare the 2 side by side.

Hey CD were are in the same line of work. 90% of my repairs are pretty much the same where it only takes a few min but the other 10%. Fortunately for me I now work for an IT dept in a chain of stores so I don't have to hear any complaints regarding that last 10% LOL Viruses used to be a problem but now there is some pretty nasty malware mostly scareware that takes a long time to resolve. Hardware now is the easy stuff.

Actually, the hardware side is a very small portion of my duties. Mostly programming, training, and support. But when I do have to run the occasional service call...and especially when a client doesn't have an account with my company, and has to write me a check before I'll leave...I hear the complaints.

I don't program or train but do everything else.

Now as one computer geek to another (boy I hate that term {geek}) keep the Sig's.

so back to Dyn's.
I have one curiosity. my Confidence 3's used to have a bigger brother, the confidence 5. it's a 3-way with dome midrange and isobaric bass section. anyone listened to those? I know a guy who used to have them but went to Raidho too (there must be something with those speakers but they are so expensive). I'm curious mostly because of the dome midrange as it's only employed by Dyna on the top of the line Consequence. the guy who owned them told me they were special speakers and he felt that was mostly because of the midrange. he refrained to compare them to my C3's and I think that's because he listened to them in comparison LOL

Stereophile published a review for those but it's not online anymore, have no idea why. all the other reviews I could find speak of them as reference speakers.

here they are: http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6444/img0089op2.jpg

I program and train, but don't do anything else.

Do you guys know anything about Lana del Rey

CD

I was about to blind buy her new album as the local record shop had it on display, now I've heard of her but never listened to her music... Wasn't sure if I should but it or not.

Also what Kate Bush album would you recommend? Almost bought one, but wasn't sure.

why don't you listen to some YouTube clips? you're not breaking any law by doing so.

Oh yea, duh.

Callas, it's just my opinion...but I guess you want it; LDR is OK...m'eh, she sounds like a lot of other female voices to me, and I find others more interesting. That kind of thing is sooo personal though, of course YMMV.

As for the Kate Bush...she's hardly a new artist; why the interest, if you're not familiar with her work? Is it because gn77b listed her as one of the few he likes. With Kate, I guess it depends on whether you take to the squeaky teen who belted-out Wuthering Heights, or the more mature Kate. I'd recommend Sensual World; some great tunes, not too highfalutin' (like some of her work now)...and nice guitar work from David Gilmour (check out a track like Rocket's Tail). That track will also expose you to her work with Trio Bulgarka, which I find interesting (and can further be found on The Red Shoes).

I find most of KB's work to be a bit pompous but I'm not sure I have to agree that is a bad thing, especially when there are qualities that compensate. Rebecca Pidgeon is not pompous but nevertheless I'd beat her in the head with a stick for daring to release the emotionless horrors she sings LOL
and while I'm at it, it fails me why this simple and unimaginative type of jazz is generally considered audiophile music.

I prefer my work as a software engineer (90+%) over that as a trainer. I mostly prefer to teach during the evening, to pick up extra income. That's how I pay for all this audio stuff...every penny of it came from working overtime.

I just look for new artists that I would not normally consider.

Instead of that I bought a cd that included both the 2nd and 3rd piano concertos from Rachmaninov and I picked up The Black Keys Attack and Release on vinyl which came with the CD.

While I had a hammer drill on loan today to wall mount acrylic cases for my die-cast cars, I took the opportunity to also get my Audience 52SE mounted on my home office wall (plaster on brick) using the Dynaudio wall brackets. Now I'm using them like studio monitors while I work at home. The setup is

Logitech Squeezebox Touch
Arcam rLink DAC
Arcam Alpha 9P amplifier
Audience 52SE

Sounds pretty damn good for an office system.