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Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 604

post #18091 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

Someone with Dyns should jump on this. The Nait XS is an outstanding integrated and very big bang for the buck.
I wonder how the XS might have stood it's ground against the C-J if you had added a Flatcap XS?

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-naim-2-flatcap-x2-power-supply-upgrade-2012-12-16-preamplifiers-60047-long-grove-il
post #18092 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

GT, why not get a DAC and a good, Naim IA; like...IDK, my XS-2. wink.gif
DACs are improving, at a rapid pace. I wouldn't want a DAC that, a) I couldn't discern and b) I couldn't upgrade, because it was tied to my IA. I know Dean will probably disagree...because he loved his Uniti; but who's the digital guy here, lol. tongue.gif

I don't disagree. I now have a separate Naim dac/streamer. With that said, the DACs in the Naim SuperNait and the all-in-one devices are really quite good.
post #18093 of 21659

That's a slightly older version of the Flatcap XS, it's immediate predecessor. According to the serial number, manufactured 2006. This looks like a decent deal.
post #18094 of 21659
Would the focus 160's need a subwoofer.

They would be for 2 channel audio only.
In a medium room with high ceilings.
post #18095 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post

Could I please get recommendations for a NAIM integrated (with optical inputs) that would match well to not only my current 2.0 X16 setup but possibly to a future 2.0 setup featuring Focus 160 speakers?
Danke!

the Naim XS would be fantastic, especially if you were able to find a tube dac like the Jolida or another tube based dac. I have been using a Bellari tube phono pre-amp and I love the way it pairs with the Naim and 160s. Really thinking of getting a tube dac as well. I would personally rather have a seperate dac over a built in one, for the reasons that CD brought up, not tied together. FWIW, I use an Arcam rDAC and its pretty good for the price as well.
post #18096 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by motobonsai View Post

Would the focus 160's need a subwoofer.
They would be for 2 channel audio only.
In a medium room with high ceilings.
I use my Focus 160s for 2 channel and do not ever use a sub, even when I play deadmau5 or hip-hop. my room is 13*16*7.5, speakers are along the 16' side of the room and i sit 8 feet away. My Naim is setup with its HTBP for movies where the 160s are crossed over at 50hz to my subwoofer. why so low of a crossover... because the 160s play bass as good as many 3-way towers Ive heard.
post #18097 of 21659
I think the UnitiLite and Uniti2 are at the top of my list.

The biggest difference seems to be power output (50 vs. 70 watts, respectively).
post #18098 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

the Naim XS would be fantastic, especially if you were able to find a tube dac like the Jolida or another tube based dac. I have been using a Bellari tube phono pre-amp and I love the way it pairs with the Naim and 160s. Really thinking of getting a tube dac as well. I would personally rather have a seperate dac over a built in one, for the reasons that CD brought up, not tied together. FWIW, I use an Arcam rDAC and its pretty good for the price as well.

Really? You think the warmth of the Naim...for an SS unit...requires a tube DAC? Hmm, I guess depending on taste. At the very least, I'd get one that offered the best of both worlds...by making it defeatable. The Eastern Electric Minimax was the best I ever heard, with a defeatable tube in the Pre stage. I wouldn't suggest that with an IA...because of the volume control; but maybe the newer, fixed-volume, EE DAC Plus. biggrin.gif
post #18099 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by motobonsai View Post

Would the focus 160's need a subwoofer.
They would be for 2 channel audio only.
In a medium room with high ceilings.

If properly set up and integrated, a sub will enhance the Focus 160s nicely. Whether or not you "need" one depends on your wants and expectations. I have Contour S3.4s and use a REL T-7 sub with them. At first I didn't think I would need to use my sub, and considered selling it after I acquired the S3.4s. But after a couple weeks listening without I added it back, and when I played classical music, from solo violin to large scale orchestral music, I was sold. The bass augmentation really helps dial in the whole system. All the music I play benefits from it.
post #18100 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

If properly set up and integrated, a sub will enhance the Focus 160s nicely. Whether or not you "need" one depends on your wants and expectations. I have Contour S3.4s and use a REL T-7 sub with them. At first I didn't think I would need to use my sub, and considered selling it after I acquired the S3.4s. But after a couple weeks listening without I added it back, and when I played classical music, from solo violin to large scale orchestral music, I was sold. The bass augmentation really helps dial in the whole system. All the music I play benefits from it.

That's what I'm afraid of. Properly setting up things is not what I'm know for.
post #18101 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by motobonsai View Post

That's what I'm afraid of. Properly setting up things is not what I'm know for.
I think it's worth the effort.
post #18102 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

If properly set up and integrated, a sub will enhance the Focus 160s nicely. Whether or not you "need" one depends on your wants and expectations. I have Contour S3.4s and use a REL T-7 sub with them. At first I didn't think I would need to use my sub, and considered selling it after I acquired the S3.4s. But after a couple weeks listening without I added it back, and when I played classical music, from solo violin to large scale orchestral music, I was sold. The bass augmentation really helps dial in the whole system. All the music I play benefits from it.

I think Dean hits it on the head...but depending on what kind of music you listen to. I would think he's right; for Classical stuff...with grand scale, and deep bass...I think a sub would surely help (although, double-checking the Focus 160s FR; it's listed at 40Hz. Is it really possible it digs deeper than S1.4s and even C1s??). Rock/Pop, etc; even Jazz, I'd think it was merely a preference.
post #18103 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Really? You think the warmth of the Naim...for an SS unit...requires a tube DAC? Hmm, I guess depending on taste. At the very least, I'd get one that offered the best of both worlds...by making it defeatable. The Eastern Electric Minimax was the best I ever heard, with a defeatable tube in the Pre stage. I wouldn't suggest that with an IA...because of the volume control; but maybe the newer, fixed-volume, EE DAC Plus. biggrin.gif
The XS is warmer then the 5i the 5i can be a little aggressive. That is why I want a tube dac. It's been a while since I've heard the XS it was with an rdac as well and 220 mk1s. It's what got me hooked.
post #18104 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I think Dean hits it on the head...but depending on what kind of music you listen to. I would think he's right; for Classical stuff...with grand scale, and deep bass...I think a sub would surely help (although, double-checking the Focus 160s FR; it's listed at 40Hz. Is it really possible it digs deeper than S1.4s and even C1s??). Rock/Pop, etc; even Jazz, I'd think it was merely a preference.
if you read the review of the C1s in stereophile the C1s were down to 24hz in his room. Weird 23 measured his 110s at 30 hz in his room and down just 4-5 dbs. Dyns hit hard and dig pretty deep.
post #18105 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

if you read the review of the C1s in stereophile the C1s were down to 24hz in his room. Weird 23 measured his 110s at 30 hz in his room and down just 4-5 dbs. Dyns hit hard and dig pretty deep.

Well, yeah; I know that first-hand...having owned 140s, S1.4s, and C1s. I've never heard 160s though, so I thought maybe Dyn installed some kind of super-bass driver in them, lol. I wonder why the conservative rating?
post #18106 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I think Dean hits it on the head...but depending on what kind of music you listen to. I would think he's right; for Classical stuff...with grand scale, and deep bass...I think a sub would surely help (although, double-checking the Focus 160s FR; it's listed at 40Hz. Is it really possible it digs deeper than S1.4s and even C1s??). Rock/Pop, etc; even Jazz, I'd think it was merely a preference.

A sub also helps with music you would never expect, like solo instrumental music. When I first auditioned a sub, my wife was convinced to get one when I played her my album of J.S. Bach's Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin.

All music benefits from bass extension.
post #18107 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

A sub also helps with music you would never expect, like solo instrumental music. When I first auditioned a sub, my wife was convinced to get one when I played her my album of J.S. Bach's Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin.
All music benefits from bass extension.

I'll disagree somewhat Dean. I think Rock...even though you would think, it makes all the sense in the world it sounds as if it should have big bass...is a bit misleading. I don't think you get subtle bass cues, maybe even the way you do in solo Violin, as you say. Or maybe it's more accurate to say it's just harder to integrate. Just sounds like boom, boom, boom...underneath a good, coherent speaker.

My experience anyway; which admittedly, is limited and from many years ago. Sounds like that's what Moto is afraid of; and if he listens primarily to Rock, I would actually suggest he take the money for a good sub, and get Dyns that dig a little deeper than the 160s.
post #18108 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I'll disagree somewhat Dean. I think Rock...even though you would think, it makes all the sense in the world it sounds as if it should have big bass...is a bit misleading. I don't think you get subtle bass cues, maybe even the way you do in solo Violin, as you say. Or maybe it's more accurate to say it's just harder to integrate. Just sounds like boom, boom, boom...underneath a good, coherant speaker.
My experience anyway; which admittedly, is limited and from many years ago.

If a sub sounds boomy, then it just plain isn't set up probably. Most likely the crossover frequency is too high (mine is set to 30 Hz). While I don't listen to it much, I do have some rock and other music with not so subtle bass cues, and the bass sounds tighter and more detailed with a sub. The improvements also extend into better midrange definition and soundstage imaging. A sub can make rock sound fantastic and non-boomy.
post #18109 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

If a sub sounds boomy, then it just plain isn't set up probably. Most likely the crossover frequency is too high (mine is set to 30 Hz). While I don't listen to it much, I do have some rock and other music with not so subtle bass cues, and the bass sounds tighter and more detailed with a sub. The improvements also extend into better midrange definition and soundstage imaging. A sub can make rock sound fantastic and non-boomy.

Well, I won't say you're wrong; at all. Again, my experience was with mediocre subs, and long ago. I've never tried to integrate my F112 into a 2-channel system; I just get speakers that satisfy my bass requirements straight-out.

OTOH, I'm not sure I really see the value in a sub you have to cross-over at 30Hz, to integrate. You have to question how much you can actually hear way down there (though I know it's more about making what you can hear better). Also, many people complain of trouble integrating a sub into good 2-channel; so it can't be as easy as you make it sound.

Not saying it's impossible or not worthwhile; just the OP might be right to at least consider alternatives.
post #18110 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Well, I won't say you're wrong; at all. Again, my experience was with mediocre subs, and long ago. I've never tried to integrate my F112 into a 2-channel system; I just get speakers that satisfy my bass requirements straight-out.
OTOH, I'm not sure I really see the value in a sub you have to cross-over at 30Hz, to integrate. You have to question how much you can actually hear way down there (though I know it's more about making what you can hear better). Also, many people complain of trouble integrating a sub into good 2-channel; so it can't be as easy as you make it sound.

Argue it in principal all you want. I'm not entirely sure you really get how bass extension can help in a system. It's not entirely about "how much you can actually hear way down there." It really is uncanny how well it can work when done right. I wouldn't have thought so if I hadn't experienced it for myself. My wife experienced it too, and she claims to have a wooden ear and no interest in the audiophile aspect of it all.

Nevertheless, I am speaking from experience with it for the last 16 months, both with the Contour S1.4s and the S3.4s. I use the high level inputs on a REL T-7, I have it integrated just as I stated, and I hear the benefit just as I stated. Stephen (PumaCat) does the exact same thing I do with his S3.4s, and for the same reasons.
post #18111 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

Argue it in principal all you want. I'm not entirely sure you really get how bass extension can help in a system. It's not entirely about "how much you can actually hear way down there." It really is uncanny how well it can work when done right. I wouldn't have thought so if I hadn't experienced it for myself. My wife experienced it too, and she claims to have a wooden ear and no interest in the audiophile aspect of it all.
Nevertheless, I am speaking from experience with it for the last 16 months, both with the Contour S1.4s and the S3.4s. I use the high level inputs on a REL T-7, I have it integrated just as I stated, and I hear the benefit just as I stated. Stephen (PumaCat) does the exact same thing I do with his S3.4s, and for the same reasons.

My goodness; can't anyone ever disagree with you...or in this case, and many others, not even disagree...but simply have a different POV or set of personal experiences. Without your asserting they don't know something? I...and many others...have a different take; we think integrating a sub into 2-channel is tricky. No one ever said impossible; no one ever said not worthwhile. There are LOTS and LOTS of threads and articles to support such a claim. Doesn't make it an absolute right, or absolute wrong; it's an opinion...a POV. Why is it I can't "really get how bass extension can help in a system", just because I disagree it's easy to achieve?

Accept there is more than one good brand of gear in the world (yours), and more than one opinion about almost everything. Sheesh.
post #18112 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

My goodness; can't anyone ever disagree with you...or in this case, and many others, not even disagree...but simply have a different POV or set of personal experiences. Without your asserting they don't know something? I...and many others...have a different take; we think integrating a sub into 2-channel is tricky. No one ever said impossible; no one ever said not worthwhile. There are LOTS and LOTS of threads and articles to support such a claim. Doesn't make it an absolute right, or absolute wrong; it's an opinion...a POV. Why is it I can't "really get how bass extension can help in a system", just because I disagree it's easy to achieve?
Accept there is more than one good brand of gear in the world (yours), and more than one opinion about almost everything. Sheesh.

Are you really serious? You said yourself your experience was old and with mediocre subs, and yet you continue to argue against my POV, one based on direct and current experience, as I'm trying to advise someone asking about using a sub. Sounds to me like you're the pot calling the kettle black.

I know integrating a sub can be tricky. But it is worth the effort.

You keep going on as if I say my system is the only one that is good. I've never said that, nor do I believe that. So I'm calling you out. Time for you to either put up or shut up about that. Where I have ever said there isn't more than one good brand of gear in the world than mine. Document it or put it to rest.
Edited by RaceTripper - 12/22/12 at 8:46pm
post #18113 of 21659
i cannot connect a sub to my Naim, but it is connected to my Integra and if I play music thru the Integra using the Naim as a power amp with my 50hz crossover for music, the mid-bass sounds thin and I really dont notice any improvement in the bass. If I just use the Naim then the 160s sound fuller throughout and I dont feel Im missing any bass for the music I listen to. I really feel that a sub is not necessary.
post #18114 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

i cannot connect a sub to my Naim, but it is connected to my Integra and if I play music thru the Integra using the Naim as a power amp with my 50hz crossover for music, the mid-bass sounds thin and I really dont notice any improvement in the bass. If I just use the Naim then the 160s sound fuller throughout and I dont feel Im missing any bass for the music I listen to. I really feel that a sub is not necessary.

My point was never that a sub is necessary, but that it can be very worthwhile.

Some subs, like the REL I use, have high level inputs that connect to the speaker terminals, rather than line level inputs that require preamp/int support and bass management That is how I use my REL with my Naim amp. It would work the same for the NAIT XS or 5i.
post #18115 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

My point was never that a sub is necessary, but that it can be very worthwhile.
Some subs, like the REL, I use have high level inputs that connect to the speaker terminals. That is how I use my REL with the Naim amp. It would work the same for the NAIT XS or 5i.
I know that subs can be a good thing, and thats great for some people, if it sounded better with a sub, Id use one, but in my setup it doesnt sound very good, perhaps connecting a rel the way you have it might be nice, but I dont feel the need to have one playing with my music. I dont listen to much classical, sometimes I listen to some, but i listen to more blues, rock, indie rock, jazz, female vocalist, pop, rap, techno/trance/house/dance, heavy metal. I never feel like the bass on techno or the double bass peddle or 5 string bass is lacking anything with the 160s on their own.

Now Rhett was using a Rel B2 sub with his sapphires and felt that was better then the Sapphires on their own... so Im sure its just about prefference.
post #18116 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by weird 23 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

weird 23, Congratulations! The system looks great. I have the C2s, SCX, and the 1.3s driven by BAT VK-6200 and CBIII. My system is too much for the room. My room is
20' x 12' x 8. I've been meaning to get a photo of my system on this site. I'll get around to it ...perhaps in the next couple of days or so.
What are you using to power your system? What kind of music do you listen to? I've been considering the S5.4s for my room and brining the C2s to another room (2-channel). I heard the S5.4s a long time ago. MAN, it blew me away. I never forgot how they sounded. The music was open and airy. Just wondering which cables you use in your system? Very nice system!!!
sparks81

Thanks Sparks.

My room is 15 x 16 in the basement of our house and don't feel the speakers are overwhelming. I think I may have different tastes and goals for my system than the typical Dyn owner in this thread, then again maybe not so different. I don't really listen to typical audiophile music, Kid Rock, Metallica, Stevie Ray Vuaghen, Deadmau5, Wolfgang Gartner, Paul Van Dyke to name a few. Don't really care about mangling the signal as some would say with eq, look at what the room is doing to it anyway. As long as I can get the sound I like it doesn't really matter to me how I get there and will use any tools available to reach my goal.

My system besides the Contours is as follows,
The surround speakers are the Focus 110's and Paradigm Atom Monitor.
Integra DHC 80.2 with Audyessy Pro
Emotiva XPA-1 x 3, Emotiva XPA-5
Oppo BDP 95
PS Audio PPP x 2
Oyaide Cables
Seaton SubMersive Hp x 2
ATS bass traps/acoustic panels

I'm actually using some Blue Jeans Cable speaker wires right now, the Oyaide's are too long, one day I'll get around to shorting them and put them back in service.

I've tried other mid-fi power amps such as Anthem and Parasound Halo before the Emo's. Don't feel I'm giving up anything by using these amps. They're not the best by any stretch but they get the job done for me.

If you feel the C2's are too much for your room I'm not so sure your going to feel any differently about the 5.4's, you may want to look into something a bit smaller. I like to crank my system up for movies so the added output of the towers is an attribute that I was specifically looking for, the 5.4's keep up to the subwoofers well and work together well to form an impressive combo. I did have the C1's at one point in time and found them to dynamically limited for my tastes.

What is it about your system that makes you think it's too much for your room?

What kind of levels do you listen at?

This may determine how large or small of a speaker you'll need.

weird 23, Sounds like you have things dialed in just fine. My room is somewhat narrow. And while I've positioned my speakers to sound the best they are going to sound, given the size of the room, I know that they could benefit from a wider room and acoustic treatments. I've heard your speakers in a much larger room. I really enjoyed what I heard from that experience... greater deminsionality and wider sound stage. I'm experimenting with acoustic treatments and that's getting rid of the echo in my room. I started out with Contours S3.4s and the smaller Contour center at a previous residence. I enjoyed them a lot! Back then, I was using B&K separates and an Arcarm DVD (FMJ) player. At my present residence, and new relationship, the idea was to upgrade the system (C2s and SCX) and move to a larger house. Well, as you know, the real estate market went south and we found ourselve staying put...with the small room.  I listen at moderate levels... genre ranges from Sinatra to the Stones and everything else in between.  The S3.4s are probably more suitable for the room size. But, after having the C2s in this room, It's tough knowing that I'm giving up performance. But, then again, this room is HT. I have a large and powerful, clean amp and the Theta CBIII. I was hoping to retain some of the performance by getting the S5.4s.

post #18117 of 21659
Thanks all. Awesome info on subs for me. I listen to mainly female vocals, jazz and alternative. I am afraid of the boom as someone suggested as well as the setup.

I first heard the 160's with a nad c390dd it was awesome. It is a bit expensive. Is it overkill for the 160's? I think it adds a good amount of bass though.
post #18118 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by motobonsai View Post

That's what I'm afraid of. Properly setting up things is not what I'm know for.
Well I have the C1 Signatures and I use a Rel B3. Overall and in general the sub isn't necessary. But it does add slightly to things like female voices besides the low bass notes the C1's can't reproduce. I have only a handful of songs that do go very deep and that's when the Rel makes the C1's sound like larger floorstanders. That being said there are 2 thoughts when integrating a sub. 1 would be to add more bass to what already exists - meaning a high crossover point like 80 - 100 hz. You will pick up the lowest octave then add to what the speakers can reproduce which for my taste is an unbalanced sound. Then the other way is to cross over much lower (in my case is 34hz) which just picks up where the C1's drop off.

The hardest part of setting up a sub is getting the timing/phasing right. You don't want the sub lagging or leading the speakers (typically a boomier sound). Once you get that right then crossing over and loudness is fairly easy. Just don't try to make more low notes where they do not exist otherwise it will sound unrealistic when the real low notes are there.
Quote:
Now Rhett was using a Rel B2 sub with his sapphires and felt that was better then the Sapphires on their own... so Im sure its just about preference.
I remember going to Rhett's the first time. I brought over a cd that had 2 songs that really went low. I wanted to compare the bass to what I was used to hearing with my system. After the song was over I wasn't impressed as I expected to be. So I looked at his sub to find he had it set for his HT not 2 channel. I hooked it up and and replayed that song. Well Rhett jumped off the sofa when the bass note was hit. biggrin.gif Ok now I was impressed and entertained. That note really pressurized the room.
post #18119 of 21659
Quote:
Originally Posted by motobonsai View Post

Thanks all. Awesome info on subs for me. I listen to mainly female vocals, jazz and alternative. I am afraid of the boom as someone suggested as well as the setup.
I first heard the 160's with a nad c390dd it was awesome. It is a bit expensive. Is it overkill for the 160's? I think it adds a good amount of bass though.

Im sure the c390dd would be just fine for the 160s. NAD is known for having good bass, if you feel its too much to spend then ask your dealer for the C375dac, then you will have good power similar to what the other will give you plus a built in dac. My Naim Nait 5i is $1650 and it produces a good amount of bass with these speakers.

back to the sub issue, it would be up to you whether you want a sub or not.
post #18120 of 21659
It's all good on the sub thing. Dyns really do pretty well all on their own.

It's taken me a while, but I now have my system pretty well dialed in, including with the sub. My last remaining obstacle was to decouple my sub from the wood floor to eliminate secondary resonance. I added an Auralex SubDude HD sub platform and that has solved that problem, at least 90%. No matter what I listen to, it sounds good. Classical, jazz, rock. I never have to turn the sub off. It never sounds boomy. Of course, it would sound great without the sub too, but I've gotten used to the improvements. It's just a bigger, fuller sound with a more expansive and accurate soundstage. You wouldn't know I have a sub it it wasn't sitting there in plain view.

I think the biggest reason people get tuned off by subs for two-channel is they make the mistake of setting it up like it's for AV. They set crossovers too high, and without AV bass management that just makes things boomy and unnatural sounding. My speakers are rated down to 35 Hz. I've found that setting my crossover at around 32 Hz works best, so the sub isn't adding to what's there, but extending downwards, just a little bit, but enough to provide real benefit.

I guess it's not for everyone because it can be a PITA to get it integrated correctly.
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