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Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 605

post #18121 of 19349
12/23/12 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by motobonsai View Post

Would the focus 160's need a subwoofer.
They would be for 2 channel audio only.
In a medium room with high ceilings.

Here's my take on subs with 2 channel hifi. I don't use one. Here's why; I prefer sins of omission to sins of commission. WIth a sub in a 2 channel system, you will see benefits with some tracks, but with other tracks you will absolutely hear bass issues that degrade the sound. Without a sub there are no issues like this. You simply might not get the last iota of deep bass. And with Dynaudio speakers, it really is just that last iota of bass since they are bass champs.

If you do get a sub, get one with built in DSP room correction. Subs like that have the ability to "mic" the room and compensate for room acoustics. Without that you will get lumpy bass guaranteed.

Finally, I would say that there's a big difference in how different amps deliver bass to the speakers. Some amps are much better at it than others. I'd focus on the right amp first.
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post #18122 of 19349
12/23/12 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

weird 23, Sounds like you have things dialed in just fine. My room is somewhat narrow. And while I've positioned my speakers to sound the best they are going to sound, given the size of the room, I know that they could benefit from a wider room and acoustic treatments. I've heard your speakers in a much larger room. I really enjoyed what I heard from that experience... greater deminsionality and wider sound stage. I'm experimenting with acoustic treatments and that's getting rid of the echo in my room. I started out with Contours S3.4s and the smaller Contour center at a previous residence. I enjoyed them a lot! Back then, I was using B&K separates and an Arcarm DVD (FMJ) player. At my present residence, and new relationship, the idea was to upgrade the system (C2s and SCX) and move to a larger house. Well, as you know, the real estate market went south and we found ourselve staying put...with the small room.  I listen at moderate levels... genre ranges from Sinatra to the Stones and everything else in between.  The S3.4s are probably more suitable for the room size. But, after having the C2s in this room, It's tough knowing that I'm giving up performance. But, then again, this room is HT. I have a large and powerful, clean amp and the Theta CBIII. I was hoping to retain some of the performance by getting the S5.4s.

Hey Sparks,

 

Before switching out your C2's I'd work on the room acoustics first, you may be able to solve the problems your hearing and keep the C2's. 

 

Send an email to GIK Acoustics,

http://gikacoustics.com

 

Enclose pics of your room in the email and measurements of your speakers if possible. They'll come up with a plan to best optimize your room acoustics, it's a free service with no commitment to buy. 

 

For speaker measurements I use this,

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-792

 

This kit is really easy to use and takes the guess work out of optimizing your speakers positioning. I've found that being able to see what's going on in the room really helps me understand what's going on and gives you an indication of what you need to do to correct any acoustical problems rather than just shooting in the dark.

 

I'm going to be doing some more experimentation dialing in the room acoustics further in the new year, going to try adding some diffusion. I've read that diffusion works well at increasing the soundstage size in smaller rooms. 

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post #18123 of 19349
12/23/12 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

It's all good on the sub thing. Dyns really do pretty well all on their own.
It's taken me a while, but I now have my system pretty well dialed in, including with the sub. My last remaining obstacle was to decouple my sub from the wood floor to eliminate secondary resonance. I added an Auralex SubDude HD sub platform and that has solved that problem, at least 90%. No matter what I listen to, it sounds good. Classical, jazz, rock. I never have to turn the sub off. It never sounds boomy. Of course, it would sound great without the sub too, but I've gotten used to the improvements. It's just a bigger, fuller sound with a more expansive and accurate soundstage. You wouldn't know I have a sub it it wasn't sitting there in plain view.
I think the biggest reason people get tuned off by subs for two-channel is they make the mistake of setting it up like it's for AV. They set crossovers too high, and without AV bass management that just makes things boomy and unnatural sounding. My speakers are rated down to 35 Hz. I've found that setting my crossover at around 32 Hz works best, so the sub isn't adding to what's there, but extending downwards, just a little bit, but enough to uess it's not for everyone because it can be a PITA to get it integrated correctly.

I have also benefitted from a pair of sub with my 5.4. The room where your system is could affect the way a sub integrate with your speakers. Although the contour 5.4 is a big speakers it did not gave me the bass that I want in my room. I have tried two different brand of subwoofers borrowed from my friends and it did help but not the way I wanted it to be. Then I borrowed a pair of Rel T1 (now discontinued) and within half an hour of setting it add to my system in a way I would never have though possible, it was like I have replace my 5.4 with bigger speakers. It was just what I wanted, so I ordered a pair of Rel T9 which replaces the discontunued T1. After a little more adjustment I was able to achieved a better integration, having now my T9 just about a month my system is playing at another level of performance. The other subs I have tried are not the cheap ones either. So, this is my experience with my system in my room, so I have to agree with Racetripper on his experience with the Rel. I also have it connected as per Rel recommendation and the step by step instruction that came with the Rel really is easy to set it up, you can checked that on their wed site by downloading the manuel.
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post #18124 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

I remember going to Rhett's the first time. I brought over a cd that had 2 songs that really went low. I wanted to compare the bass to what I was used to hearing with my system. After the song was over I wasn't impressed as I expected to be. So I looked at his sub to find he had it set for his HT not 2 channel. I hooked it up and and replayed that song. Well Rhett jumped off the sofa when the bass note was hit. biggrin.gif Ok now I was impressed and entertained. That note really pressurized the room.
I knew something was "off" with my system for a few weeks before you came over George, but I couldn't pin point it....What happened was the Neutrik cable of the B2 was unplugged hence the sub was actually disengaged for 2-ch music. tongue.gif

What CD was that , I most likely ripped that to my server, didn't I?
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post #18125 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

It's all good on the sub thing. Dyns really do pretty well all on their own.
It's taken me a while, but I now have my system pretty well dialed in, including with the sub. My last remaining obstacle was to decouple my sub from the wood floor to eliminate secondary resonance. I added an Auralex SubDude HD sub platform and that has solved that problem, at least 90%. No matter what I listen to, it sounds good. Classical, jazz, rock. I never have to turn the sub off. It never sounds boomy. Of course, it would sound great without the sub too, but I've gotten used to the improvements. It's just a bigger, fuller sound with a more expansive and accurate soundstage. You wouldn't know I have a sub it it wasn't sitting there in plain view.
I think the biggest reason people get tuned off by subs for two-channel is they make the mistake of setting it up like it's for AV. They set crossovers too high, and without AV bass management that just makes things boomy and unnatural sounding. My speakers are rated down to 35 Hz. I've found that setting my crossover at around 32 Hz works best, so the sub isn't adding to what's there, but extending downwards, just a little bit, but enough to provide real benefit.
I guess it's not for everyone because it can be a PITA to get it integrated correctly.
Hey Dean
I think you explained it better than I did. cool.gif Now with the T series does Rel still supply that cr@ppy aluminum cable. If so I would change it out. I took a shot with the Nordost baseline made to Rel spec and oh what a difference. Much better attack and decay. My brother in law did the same for his Q series with a copper cable and noticed the same.
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post #18126 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rded View Post

I knew something was "off" with my system for a few weeks before you came over George, but I couldn't pin point it....What happened was the Neutrik cable of the B2 was unplugged hence the sub was actually disengaged for 2-ch music. tongue.gif
What CD was that , I most likely ripped that to my server, didn't I?
Yes you did - That was the Yanni Truth of touch 2011. Tracks 4 and 6 both go real real low. biggrin.gif
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post #18127 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Hey Dean
I think you explained it better than I did. cool.gif Now with the T series does Rel still supply that cr@ppy aluminum cable. If so I would change it out. I took a shot with the Nordost baseline made to Rel spec and oh what a difference. Much better attack and decay. My brother in law did the same for his Q series with a copper cable and noticed the same.

I use a custom built cable based on Transparent Audio copper speaker cable and Cardas spade connectors. The ground wire is also shielded separately. It attaches at the amp (which only has 4 mm banana female sockets) using a Cardas double banana that accepts both the REL spades and my speaker cable bananas.
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post #18128 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:18am
So including a subwoofer this time are all these good choices?
Marantz pm8004
Bel canto c5i
Nad 375bee
Nad c390dd and
Peachtree nova 125
Rega brio r
Edited by motobonsai - 12/23/12 at 10:25am
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post #18129 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Yes you did - That was the Yanni Truth of touch 2011. Tracks 4 and 6 both go real real low. biggrin.gif

Thanks, try them out sometime today. I still have the Solid Gray Plate 6550s and Telefunken 12at7 and 12au7s up fromt! Let's see how low the C4s can really go!
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post #18130 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxwired View Post

Here's my take on subs with 2 channel hifi. I don't use one. Here's why; I prefer sins of omission to sins of commission. With a sub in a 2 channel system, you will see benefits with some tracks, but with other tracks you will absolutely hear bass issues that degrade the sound.
Jax - I highly disagree when set up to extend beyond what the speakers are capable of. I never used anything but my ears in the end (well I tried test cd's with frequency sweeps and that threw me way off to the point you are trying to make). I think the reason it took me almost a full year to get it right was because I had no 'absolute' reference. Like I said - don't try to add low notes where they don't exist. wink.gif Hard part if figuring out what is real eek.gif. The only Dyn speaker that I have heard to date that I feel a sub would be no help is the Consequence UE (but have not heard all Dyns). I think they would crack concrete if pushed hard enough biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif.
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post #18131 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Jax - I highly disagree when set up to extend beyond what the speakers are capable of. I never used anything but my ears in the end (well I tried test cd's with frequency sweeps and that threw me way off to the point you are trying to make). I think the reason it took me almost a full year to get it right was because I had no 'absolute' reference. Like I said - don't try to add low notes where they don't exist. wink.gif Hard part if figuring out what is real eek.gif. The only Dyn speaker that I have heard to date that I feel a sub would be no help is the Consequence UE (but have not heard all Dyns). I think they would crack concrete if pushed hard enough biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif.

The Consequence UE have sort of an isobarick design going down to 17 Hz., essentially giving them build-in subs. I heard these with a Boulder amp that looks like a big aluminum coffin. All I can say is...damn! eek.gif
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post #18132 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rded View Post

Thanks, try them out sometime today. I still have the Solid Gray Plate 6550s and Telefunken 12at7 and 12au7s up fromt! Let's see how low the C4s can really go!
The tung sol 6550 solid plates sure are a treat aren't they smile.gif
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post #18133 of 19349
12/23/12 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

The Consequence UE have sort of an isobarick design going down to 17 Hz., essentially giving them build-in subs. I heard these with a Boulder amp that looks like a big aluminum coffin. All I can say is...damn! eek.gif
I and Rhett heard them with the Octave Jubilee mono blocks. All I can say is WOW - damn biggrin.gif
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post #18134 of 19349
12/23/12 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

The tung sol 6550 solid plates sure are a treat aren't they smile.gif

The Black Plates are even better of a treat! tongue.gif
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post #18135 of 19349
12/23/12 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

The tung sol 6550 solid plates sure are a treat aren't they smile.gif

The Black Plates are even better of a treat! tongue.gif
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post #18136 of 19349
12/23/12 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rded View Post

The Black Plates are even better of a treat! tongue.gif
Eat your heart out LOL biggrin.gif
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post #18137 of 19349
12/23/12 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Eat your heart out LOL biggrin.gif
you mean EAT (KT88) my heart out?!! Now you're just showing off now, aren't hou?
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post #18138 of 19349
12/23/12 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Eat your heart out LOL biggrin.gif
you mean EAT (KT88) my heart out?!! Now you're just showing off now, aren't hou?
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post #18139 of 19349
12/23/12 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Jax - I highly disagree when set up to extend beyond what the speakers are capable of.

See, I guess this is what I don't get: let's say a C1 gives us usable bass down to, for the sake of this argument...let's just call it 30Hz. Can't we assume...if we all agree Dyns are engineered well, and balanced...that the crossover, and usable output of the mids and highs is set accordingly. So...in theory; if I add usable bass output, well below what the speaker is capable of. Aren't I, in essence, throwing the balance out of whack?

I know, I know; it's been pointed out to me that arguments in principle are worthless. Carry on.
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post #18140 of 19349
12/23/12 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rded View Post

you mean EAT (KT88) my heart out?!! Now you're just showing off now, aren't hou?
Caught me rolleyes.gif
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post #18141 of 19349
12/23/12 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

See, I guess this is what I don't get: let's say a C1 gives us usable bass down to, for the sake of this argument...let's just call it 30Hz. Can't we assume...if we all agree Dyns are engineered well, and balanced...that the crossover, and usable output of the mids and highs is set accordingly. So...in theory; if I add usable bass output, well below what the speaker is capable of. Aren't I, in essence, throwing the balance out of whack?
I know, I know; it's been pointed out to me that arguments in principle are worthless. Carry on.
NO - the unusable bass is what CAN NOT be reproduced by the speaker. By adding it - what can't be reproduced - IMO you are getting are much bigger sounding speaker. Nothing is out of whack. To me when it is out of whack is when I cross over to high which adds to what the speakers can already do with no problem. It's when you add in a big way that things sound out of whack. Not reproducing what the speakers can't do (unusable).
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post #18142 of 19349
12/23/12 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

NO - the unusable bass is what CAN NOT be reproduced by the speaker. By adding it - what can't be reproduced - IMO you are getting are much bigger sounding speaker. Nothing is out of whack. To me when it is out of whack is when I cross over to high which adds to what the speakers can already do with no problem. It's when you add in a big way that things sound out of whack. Not reproducing what the speakers can't do (unusable).

+1

That's what I refer to as bass extension (as opposed to bass augmentation). Use a sub to extend freq. response down below what the main speakers are capable of, not within what the speakers already reproduce. That is why it's very important not to cross over too high. If you do, that's where one gets the boomy bass and loss of definition in the other ranges. Not good.
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post #18143 of 19349
12/23/12 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post


See, I guess this is what I don't get: let's say a C1 gives us usable bass down to, for the sake of this argument...let's just call it 30Hz. Can't we assume...if we all agree Dyns are engineered well, and balanced...that the crossover, and usable output of the mids and highs is set accordingly. So...in theory; if I add usable bass output, well below what the speaker is capable of. Aren't I, in essence, throwing the balance out of whack?
I know, I know; it's been pointed out to me that arguments in principle are worthless. Carry on.

I think part of the problem is people assume that just because a speaker is rated down to certain frequency by the manufacturer is that said speaker will be able to achieve that in the users room, the same can be said of a subwoofer. The flip side of that is that sometimes the speakers or subwoofers will extend down lower than the specified rating as well depending on the amount of room gain that one has.

 

The most reliable way to determine this is through in room measurements, as I have said before it takes the guess work out of things. Finding the location that produces the flattest frequency response is absolutely key.

 

Another problem that can arise using the LFE input is that it will cause a dip in the frequency response at the x-over point. Increasing or sometimes decreasing the subwoofer distance setting in the avr/processor will most of the time eliminate the dip allowing for much better integration. Once again the only reliable way to achieve this is through measurement.

 

I've never understood how people can spend thousands, even tens of thousands and balk at spending $300 on a measurement system to optimize the system they've spent so much money on. Instead deciding to just throw more money at the problem replacing gear that wasn't the problem in the first place, unfortunately I learned this the hard way.

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post #18144 of 19349
12/23/12 at 3:33pm
Thanks CD and RaceTripper on Ocos replies.

More question for Dyn thread participants. smile.gif

Anyone has experience pairing Naim DAC with Dyn speakers? People on this thread expressed fondness for Dyn+Naim pairing and I got really intrigued by the Naim DAC.
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post #18145 of 19349
12/23/12 at 4:28pm
I'm surprised that nobody has grabbed the pair of 260's on audiogon. It's been there for a couple of weeks.. almost half off msrp. Tempted myself. I'm assuming people are hesitant to buy 2nd hand products?
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post #18146 of 19349
12/23/12 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alconzo View Post

I'm surprised that nobody has grabbed the pair of 260's on audiogon. It's been there for a couple of weeks.. almost half off msrp. Tempted myself. I'm assuming people are hesitant to buy 2nd hand products?
Because we're all ecstatic with the Dyns we already have. biggrin.gif
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post #18147 of 19349
12/23/12 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alconzo View Post

I'm surprised that nobody has grabbed the pair of 260's on audiogon. It's been there for a couple of weeks.. almost half off msrp. Tempted myself. I'm assuming people are hesitant to buy 2nd hand products?

when the time comes Ill grab the new 210C used, but I feel no need to get towers with the 160s. I love the 160s.
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post #18148 of 19349
12/23/12 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alconzo View Post

I'm surprised that nobody has grabbed the pair of 260's on audiogon. It's been there for a couple of weeks.. almost half off msrp. Tempted myself. I'm assuming people are hesitant to buy 2nd hand products?

I bought my mint Audience 82s off of Audiogon at a great price. If I hadn't picked up the 82s, and had the money for the 260s, I'd sure be after them!
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post #18149 of 19349
12/23/12 at 7:46pm
If I didn't have a wife, I'd have those, Haha.
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post #18150 of 19349
12/23/12 at 10:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alconzo View Post

I'm surprised that nobody has grabbed the pair of 260's on audiogon. It's been there for a couple of weeks.. almost half off msrp. Tempted myself. I'm assuming people are hesitant to buy 2nd hand products?

Looks like they are gone now.
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