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Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 611

post #18301 of 19341
1/9/13 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

I had a long, cordial PM session with callas01 about this. He's free to share my thoughts with you if he chooses to do so.
To say that he is coming into this forum and starting sh*t is hardly an accurate characterization of what has happened. amateurholic argued with him in another thread, then mentioned the argument here, and you guys were pretty quick to mock Arny's posts. So he's hardly coming here to start sh*t. More like you guys started sh*t with somebody who never backs down.

Nope; if we wanted to start sh*t with him, we would have posted over there.

The fallacy here is believing that people who want to start a fight want a fair fight. You and I have a history, and due to your wonderful apparent ability to regrow horns, ears, and tails at will, my trophy shelf is littered with piles of them. ;-)

There are people who badly need every tricky advantage they can get, and some might believe that one way to get an advantage is to falsely represent that I am biased against Dynaudio on a Dynaudio enthusiast's forum.

Fact is, things are what they are and all I'm interested in is finding out what they are.

I'm hardly a virgin when it comes to Dynaudio speakers, and I'm a fan of their midranges and tweeters. They've produced some awesome drivers that sound good to me in well-engineered systems.
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post #18302 of 19341
1/9/13 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post


You knows guys...and I address the entire forum here: I've really mellowed a lot over the last few years; and despite what they always try to say...we don't listen, we don't try to see their point, etc. I have listened.
But this is clearly a matter of extremes, and I think the statement above exemplifies it. What...just because we don't want to talk about speakers, in terms of this...
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...that means we want to talk about "re break-in"? If you were paying attention, you'd see a lot of us are on the record as that seeming suspect too. But let's talk about the "real" performance of Dyn speakers; because unless I'm missing your point...you seem to be indicating the "real" performance is what you can measure, not what you can hear. I've sold my Dyns, I've gone smaller and simpler; I could completely change my approach to the hobby...go 180-degrees, and still never understand a statement like this. What if Dyns had 100db up to 30k; would that make them better, in terms of "real" performance? Why...you couldn't hear it. Now I know low frequencies are different, but I just don't see how someone...with a straight face...can say what's "real" is what you can measure, versus what you can hear. Isn't how it sounds the end-game? And that's highly subjective. Do you know...and I know if you get around, you must...how many people I've heard say XYZ speakers sounds bright to them; while others have said it sounds dull?
Real is how you perceive the sound. Rating a speaker by how it measures, is like trying to judge a movie...by reading the script on the Internet; there are intangibles, and it just doesn't tell the whole story. Now...before you go all objectivist jihad on me; please pay attention to what I didn't say. I didn't say they meant nothing; I didn't say they aren't relevant. I never said "those numbers look like bullsh*t to me" (and for the record...as someone here suggested; do we really think, Arny measured those numbers himself? I just assumed...like most...he was re-posting someone else's work. OTOH, no one will still tell me who he is...and why I should suspect, he measures every loudspeaker, ever produced, in his very own listening-room). What I took exception to are two, specific assertions: one, that Focus 160s are over-driven by any amp over 50wpc. "Over-driven" in a "scientific" sense, whatever the hell that means...uh, whatever. Over-driven, in terms of real-world: producing audible distortion, sounding bad...breaking-up; see...I know that not to be true. And then this whole thing about Focus 160s only being good enough for low-level, late-night listening...or for your tiny apartment or dorm-room; that's just drivel.
But again, he and the rest of "you"; you're entitled to your opinion or your version of the facts. They always say "it's not opinion, it's fact". No...the opinion, is that selecting speakers by what measures best...is best. That's an opinion; an approach. Which is fine for you; keep listening with a microphone. I'll listen with my ears, and stay deluded.
And BTW...even though I've tried to reform, and obviously...lose my way occasionally, lol; I'll kick it old-school here, and conclude like I always used to, with the "objectivists". If speakers are judged to be, what sounds best by what measures best...then this ought to be easy as apple pie. Please share with us...what are the best speakers, I guess at any price; and then what speakers each of you has. I'm just curious about these great speakers I'm missing out on.

The topic is the bass reproduction of the Focus 160's, I don't see the OP disparaging any of the other attributes that your talking about. Do you? 

 

Is it really that surprising that a 2 way bookshelf speaker is going to need some help in the bass department when things get loud?

 

I do agree that the OP could have stated things more eloquently, I don't think the 160's are only suited for the listening environments he described. Setting them up according to their strengths should be a priority and if deep bass at spirited levels isn't one of them then why push them to do something they're not optimally suited for? If your are going to be listening to them at those kinds of levels how do you propose finding the best x-over point for them in the users own room? By looking at the Dyn website and seeing what they rate it at? Your getting extremely lucky if that works out for you. 

 

 

I'm not 100% in the measurement only camp but I'm not 100% in the golden ears camp either. All the best system I've ever heard are a combination of both, measurement and listening. That's how I've set up my system and you'd be very hard pressed to tell if the subwoofers are even on, sometimes I even have to double check. 

 

Right now I'm running the Dyn Contour 5.4's, Contour SCX, Focus 110's and so far they're the best speakers I've ever owned. 

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post #18303 of 19341
1/9/13 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The fallacy here is believing that people who want to start a fight want a fair fight. You and I have a history, and due to your wonderful apparent ability to regrow horns, ears, and tails at will, my trophy shelf is littered with piles of them. ;-)
There are people who badly need every tricky advantage they can get, and some might believe that one way to get an advantage is to falsely represent that I am biased against Dynaudio on a Dynaudio enthusiast's forum.
Fact is, things are what they are and all I'm interested in is finding out what they are.
I'm hardly a virgin when it comes to Dynaudio speakers, and I'm a fan of their midranges and tweeters. They've produced some awesome drivers that sound good to me in well-engineered systems.

We have a history? Either you're mistaking me with someone else...or if we do, it's more important for you to remember it than I. As I've stated...several times...I don't know who you are my man; a legend in your own mind?

Your arguments go round and round; littered with assertion of fallacies, and more theoretical world nonsense. You understand my points perfectly well. We could all counter your "arguments" (like define over-driven; is it your definition. Please point to us, the scientific community's, standardized threshold for "over-driven". Is the Focus 160, considered to be "over-driven"...by the fact that it only produces 81db at 20Hz? Uh huh; and what's "acceptable"; what's not over-driven...100db at 20Hz? Says who? Does everyone agree on that standard? Is 105db "better" than 100db? How about as to how that relates to the rest of the FR? Can a speaker be out of balance? Does any speaker, measure exactly the same at all FR? And please...I've asked before; what are these best speakers? Isn't complimenting some of the Dyn drivers, while discrediting others...a misdirection or fallacy of some kind? Sorry...my undergrad pre-reqs were long ago, and I'm only 45 rolleyes.gif); the fact that we choose not to, is not the same as defeat.

So...it's not my parts you have on your trophy shelf. I think if you'll look closely, it's a compensatory, also-ran of some kind. Like a "Good Job!" or "Nice Try!" statue of some kind. Now please; can we go back to bugging Mick about an update to the Contour S1.4? I have a small, thin-walled, dormitory room that needs a system. cool.gif
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post #18304 of 19341
1/9/13 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post


You understand my points perfectly well.

The problem isn't understanding them. The problem is making sense out of them!
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We could all counter your "arguments" (like define over-driven; is it your definition. Please point to us, the scientific community's, standardized threshold for "over-driven".

I'm not here to teach science to the recalcitrant or habitually argumentative so this will be brief.

Any speaker that whose diaphragm is being pushed beyond its linear travel or Xmax is being overdriven.

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Is the Focus 160, considered to be "over-driven"...by the fact that it only produces 81db at 20Hz?

I see the problem, a simple lack of ability to interpret a simple chart no matter how many times it has been explained.

Again: A computer model that is very optimistic suggests that trying to obtain more than 81 dB @ 20Hz will result in the speaker being over-driven or producing excess distortion.

As a side note, the threshold of hearing at 20 Hz is about 75 dB. 20 Hz @ 80 dB is thus a very faint sound, barely audible or even inaudible because it is masked by other sounds in the music.
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Uh huh; and what's "acceptable"; what's not over-driven...100db at 20Hz?

a clean 20 Hz @ 110 dB SPL is a pretty satisfying and generally clearly audible sound.
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Says who? Does everyone agree on that standard?

Obviously most people have no opinions in the matter, most because they've never even thought seriously about it. Among people who are serious audiophiles and experienced with systems with good bass capabilities, being limited to a clean 80 dB @ 20 Hz isn't acceptable but a clean 110 dB SPL @ 20 is OK.
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Is 105db "better" than 100db?

Yes, somewhat if both are referencing clean bass @ 20 Hz.
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How about as to how that relates to the rest of the FR? Can a speaker be out of balance?

In some sense they all are! ;-)
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Does any speaker, measure exactly the same at all FR?

That's a ridiculous question. Of course speakers measure differently. Therefore we concern ourselves with significant measurable differences.
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And please...I've asked before; what are these best speakers?

There are many of them. Dynaudio does not have a monopoly on good speakers. Nobody does.
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Isn't complimenting some of the Dyn drivers, while discrediting others...a misdirection or fallacy of some kind?

No, it is expressing an opinion.

BTW, how is not mentioning something discrediting it? I haven't yet mentioned BMW cars in this thread, does that mean that I am discrediting them? ;-)
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post #18305 of 19341
1/9/13 at 8:13am
^^^ Furthermore...Arny, you and I just see things differently my man. I'll use Art, as a parallel. Many people don't know what makes "good" art, "good". It's got an intangible, and it's spawned phrases like "I know it when I see it", and "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Now...if someone were to say to me (as many of the objectivists have): "hey ya dumb hick; why don't you stop being so closed-minded, and let me teach you a thing or two about art"...well, I agree; if I refuse, that's sticking my head in the sand.

Now...if I agree, and someone starts saying "well the thing that makes Monet so great (and let's go with Monet; you know, since you used him to trash the NuForce DDA-100 wink.gif)...is if you break his painting into quadrants, and you look at his composition in the upper-third"; they're gonna lose me. I don't take a scientific or analytical approach to many things; I take, for lack of a better word I suppose, an "artistic" or "subjectivist" approach. I guess if you want to make the argument that yours is "right"...you could probably win that argument, since yours has a discipline based on it, and mine doesn't. And I give you that.

But there's beauty in the world, that can't be measured. I really got under the skin of some, with an assertion like that; that audio could some how be "art". But I don't see "audio" as an ends unto itself; for me...and maybe I'm not an audiophile then...it's about the reproduction of music. The music is art. So when I listen to kit, my criteria is does it make the music sound better...to, and only to, me; and that's when it transcends what measurements might say.

I'm happy you concede it's a combination; but I ask you...do you listen, then measure...or the other way around? Because if you measure, then listen...well, then I suggest you're being as influenced as we are, when we read a positive review. I just always think of Robin Williams' line in Dead Poets Society: "I like Byron; I give him a 42". I can't measure sound that way. But then I'm sure, quoting movies is a fallacy of some sort. tongue.gif
Edited by CDLehner - 1/9/13 at 8:19am
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post #18306 of 19341
1/9/13 at 8:28am
^^^ Wow, I guess they were right; I can't say I wasn't warned (and even further testament, that I don't remember you...if we had some kind of run-in before). That kind of snippet and retort; focusing on a small part of an argument, and not the over-all spirit...is the garbage-man's debating style. Yuck!

Furthermore...if a so-called expert in a field, can't explain his discipline in a way that the laymen can understand; he's not as expert as he thinks (and technical jargon, like Xmax, is always the dead give-away; it's a way of bullying those, into thinking a guy knows something...because they don't understand the term). Your above post is littered with absurtity; it's gone backwards, IMO. You've gone from reasonable and moderate, if passionate...to down-right silly.

"Among people who are serious audiophiles and experienced with systems with good bass capabilities, being limited to a clean 80 dB @ 20 Hz isn't acceptable but a clean 110 dB SPL @ 20 is OK". I thought you were a scientist of some sort? That's about the most un-scientific thing I've ever seen. If you can define "serious audiophile"...and how we determine who's in and out of that group; I'll sell my Harbeths and get a clock-radio, lol (and please...come up with something better than the obvious joke).

Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. I really have little interest in anything you have to say...except do me the courtesy, of naming ONE...just one...good speaker IYO. See, that's where you guys loose me; you love to talk numbers...love to talk about what's not good, and why it's not. But from what I can tell (and you see I read the posts), you hate to talk about gear...what's good, and what you spend your own money on?

P.S. RT; looks like you were right to pull the popcorn out after-all. Good dinner-theater, huh? lol

P.P.S. And guys, that's it; sorry I helped drag this into the muck. Arny, go ahead and get the last word in (but I really would love to hear what you like), and then I'll have to put this one to bed. No one's going to win this anyway.
Edited by CDLehner - 1/9/13 at 8:37am
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post #18307 of 19341
1/9/13 at 8:37am
He seems like a perpetual critic, telling us what is bad, but never saying what is good. Sounds like a normal grumpy old man to me, Haha.
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post #18308 of 19341
1/9/13 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

At 80 Hz they may be able to in some sense handle 200 watts as well, but their woofer cones can be predicted to be flailing nonlinearly and not producing clean bass
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I'm hardly a virgin when it comes to Dynaudio speakers, and I'm a fan of their midranges and tweeters. They've produced some awesome drivers that sound good to me in well-engineered systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

unless these are only for night time use, or use in a tiny apartment or dormitory with thin walls, they would need a subwoofer to be able to cover even just the narrowest possible view of the musical frequency spectrum (down to 43 Hz) at fairly tame sound levels (100 dB SPL).
So which one is it? It seems that the Focus 160 does not meet your criteria of a "well-engineered system". tongue.gif
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post #18309 of 19341
1/9/13 at 9:59am
I hope this blows over soon.
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post #18310 of 19341
1/9/13 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHat View Post

I hope this blows over soon.

What? I just grabbed more popcorn.
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post #18311 of 19341
1/9/13 at 10:42am
My wife was laughing about the popcorn RT, glad you've got a good sense of humor!
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post #18312 of 19341
1/9/13 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amatuerholic View Post

So which one is it? It seems that the Focus 160 does not meet your criteria of a "well-engineered system". tongue.gif

I see what Arny is saying. And I would have to agree with the notion that if the listener was looking for a fantastic FR response (ie-fairly linear) throughout the audible spectrum, the focus 160 wouldn't be his speaker of choice...unless, he could go with a subwoofer to handle the frequencies the 160 cannot. Seems simple enough....I assume the modeling program takes into account the driver specifics, as well as enclosure volume, etc.

Realistically, the ability to produce low frequency without distortion is extremely difficult. Not only does it require a driver that can handle the power requirements, but also to be in a suitable enclosure (or, no enclosure for that matter - IB anyone).

Also, just FYI for those new to the Dyn world, they made a name for themselves manufacturing drivers for other speaker companies before developing their own enclosures....and their drivers are, indeed, excellent.

Oh, and for those who haven't heard a system that can reproduce 20hz cleanly at 105 dbs....well, hard to describe, other than Damn! I heard it once in a system with 4 IB subs. And by cleanly, I mean minimal distortion...unlike many boxed subs generate.
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post #18313 of 19341
1/9/13 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amatuerholic View Post

My wife was laughing about the popcorn RT, glad you've got a good sense of humor!

biggrin.gif
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post #18314 of 19341
1/9/13 at 11:39am
this is getting really ridiculous, try to imagine the discussion from the standpoint of someone who doesn't care which of you "wins" (you've said it yourselves that it IS a "war").

arnyk has a point. I've built speakers myself in the past. every manufacturer specifies an Xmax parameter (maximum excursion) for each mid-bass or woofer driver. now, what does this mean? first, it means that there's a point where the speaker becomes non-linear. for instance, because of the flux density at the end of the gap is lower. manufacturers take measures to solve that (copper rings for instance) but it can't be completely solved. you wouldn't believe how little it takes to reach that point. and no, Dynaudio doesn't build their drivers with extraterrestrial technology, they suffer from the same phenomena.
and there is the excursion that makes a speaker break, usually called Xmech which is obviously larger than Xmax. but you'll know when you reached it (in only happens once, usually).
if you do the math or use a simulator you wouldn't believe how little power it takes to reach Xmax when you put that driver inside a box that produces usable bass.
the problem is that, while it's the low frequencies that cause the cone to move, as long as you're in the non-linear region, all frequencies reproduced by that driver will be affected, more or less.
of course, music doesn't usually contain a large amount of very low frequencies and when it does it doesn't necessarily last for very long but when that happens and if you raise the volume you're likely close to the non-linear region. fortunately, the energy is not all concentrated in the bass region (but most of it is, though), so if you feed the speakers X watts, it's not X watts of bass.

here's a quick sim I did for the 20W75 (the driver my speakers use). mind that the sim is for a 30W input power. as you can see, 40hz already cause ~4mm of excursion and below that it heads for the sky. so if you play some organ music that even has sub 20Hz content you'll reach 5-6 mm in no time.

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post #18315 of 19341
1/9/13 at 1:21pm
Here's an idea. Shut up and LISTEN to and ENJOY your system! If you want to continue the **** fight take it to private message! Posting it here for all to see just offers us the ability to question your true motives. I, for one, do not think the intention is to prove or sort anything worthwhile; simply it is to sound smart or to prove you are right. IMHO it has no bearing on why we are here in this thread and as such is best served between the two of you.

Just to make this relevant I listened to my Contour S1.4's last night and I LOVED every minute of it!
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post #18316 of 19341
1/9/13 at 2:17pm
gn77b, good post!
same for weird 23 and jamhead.
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post #18317 of 19341
1/9/13 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

^^^ Wow, I guess they were right; I can't say I wasn't warned (and even further testament, that I don't remember you...if we had some kind of run-in before). That kind of snippet and retort; focusing on a small part of an argument, and not the over-all spirit...is the garbage-man's debating style. Yuck!
Furthermore...if a so-called expert in a field, can't explain his discipline in a way that the laymen can understand; he's not as expert as he thinks (and technical jargon, like Xmax, is always the dead give-away; it's a way of bullying those, into thinking a guy knows something...because they don't understand the term). Your above post is littered with absurtity; it's gone backwards, IMO. You've gone from reasonable and moderate, if passionate...to down-right silly.
"Among people who are serious audiophiles and experienced with systems with good bass capabilities, being limited to a clean 80 dB @ 20 Hz isn't acceptable but a clean 110 dB SPL @ 20 is OK". I thought you were a scientist of some sort? That's about the most un-scientific thing I've ever seen. If you can define "serious audiophile"...and how we determine who's in and out of that group; I'll sell my Harbeths and get a clock-radio, lol (and please...come up with something better than the obvious joke).
Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. I really have little interest in anything you have to say...except do me the courtesy, of naming ONE...just one...good speaker IYO. See, that's where you guys loose me; you love to talk numbers...love to talk about what's not good, and why it's not. But from what I can tell (and you see I read the posts), you hate to talk about gear...what's good, and what you spend your own money on?
P.S. RT; looks like you were right to pull the popcorn out after-all. Good dinner-theater, huh? lol
P.P.S. And guys, that's it; sorry I helped drag this into the muck. Arny, go ahead and get the last word in (but I really would love to hear what you like), and then I'll have to put this one to bed. No one's going to win this anyway.

Are you actually reading the same posts as everyone else? 

 

Garbage man debating style? If providing valid information is garbage what do you call your style? You haven't posted anything even on topic to the discussion you started. If your going to start these types of debates at least have something relevant to say on the topic, not waxing poetically about everything else but. Although it is entertaining to see what your going to come up with next and where you pulled that nugget of wisdom from.rolleyes.gif

 

I'm obviously just an enthusiast just like most others in this thread and don't consider myself an expert in any way. This just seems like a very simple topic that your blowing waaay out of proportion and starting the flame war that you insisted you didn't want. 

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post #18318 of 19341
1/9/13 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by weird 23 View Post

Are you actually reading the same posts as everyone else? 

Garbage man debating style? If providing valid information is garbage what do you call your style? You haven't posted anything even on topic to the discussion you started. If your going to start these types of debates at least have something relevant to say on the topic, not waxing poetically about everything else but. Although it is entertaining to see what your going to come up with next and where you pulled that nugget of wisdom from.rolleyes.gif

I'm obviously just an enthusiast just like most others in this thread and don't consider myself an expert in any way. This just seems like a very simple topic that your blowing waaay out of proportion and starting the flame war that you insisted you didn't want. 

You bet; are you. I still say cutting single lines, skews the big-picture of the argument. And saying something relevant, and something scientific are 2 different things.

Now please; won't you all just drop this? I can't argue with you guys, without pointing out certain things that would likely get a TOS. When you make the argument scientific, I can't debate on that level. But to say that makes anything else irrelevant; well...whatever. I'm just surprised the rest of the group has stood for it; well...maybe not that surprised.

Let's see what will get talked about now?
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post #18319 of 19341
1/9/13 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by weird 23 View Post

This just seems like a very simple topic that your blowing waaay out of proportion and starting the flame war that you insisted you didn't want. 

Please clarify the simple topic?
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post #18320 of 19341
1/9/13 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post


Please clarify the simple topic?

C'mon CD, for someone as educated as you are the topic shouldn't have to be spoon fed to you. Your the one who brought it up after all.

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post #18321 of 19341
1/9/13 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

gn77b, good post!
same for weird 23 and jamhead.
well, you know, just doing my best to at least look smart.

truth is that when I first realized how many millimeters of cone excursion are needed to reproduce decent bass with a regular woofer I was like "this can't be right". this doesn't mean that there's permanently a FFT analyzer connected to my amp's output or that I check cone excursion with a ruler from time to time, I just listen to music like everyone else. it's just that I try to integrate the theory and the practice. for instance, I have measured the distortion of my amp and (like with pretty much any amp out there), there is a point beyond which it starts to rise very rapidly. when I listen critically I don't exceed that point. just an example.
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post #18322 of 19341
1/9/13 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by weird 23 View Post

C'mon CD, for someone as educated as you are the topic shouldn't have to be spoon fed to you. Your the one who brought it up after all.

Ah...deflection (and btw...not a single brand mentioned yet; just for the record). No, I asked you...because I disagree it's a simple topic (that's been blown out of proportion). Side-tracked by some rhetoric, sure. But it's your assertion it's a simple topic; so...let's hear it? What is the topic?

While we wait for weird...you guys want a relevant discussion? I find that often you don't; but OK...let's set aside party lines, and talk about...what I see as the issue at hand. What I see as the issue at hand is this: Arny's characterization, that Focus 160s "...would need a subwoofer to be able to cover even just the narrowest possible view of the musical frequency spectrum". Furthermore, his assertion that they are "over-driven" by anything more than say a 50wpc amplifier; and his using numbers, rather than any evidence of actual listening...to support these arguments. That's the topic I see; and IMO, it is anything but simple (but don't worry weird...I'm still waiting to hear your take).

If we're really going to rationally discuss this...I guess rather than get emotional; we'd have to start with where did Arny get his numbers? Now, let me take extra-special care for anyone not to misunderstand (read: dumb it down a bit). I'm not saying I disagree; the numbers look about right, yes? But if we're going to have a real, rational discussion...about Arny's supposition, and the fact that he seems to be basing it on these numbers...rather than listening (and if he's listened, I'd love to hear about that; would have loved to before now, as I think it's pretty "relevant", no?); then I think it's only fair we establish where these numbers came from, and determine the likelihood of their accuracy?

Let's take it a step further. Assuming the numbers are right (and I repeat...they probably are); can we include some listening frame of reference? Arny himself says he believes in a combination of measurements and listening (although he never did answer which he did first). Arny, can you tell us about the system you tested the Focus 160s with? What over-50wpc amp, did you drive them with...that lead you to conclude they sounded "over-driven"?

No nut would argue, that a speaker of this size couldn't do with a subwoofer. It's a bookshelf/monitor for heaven's sake. When we say "produces good bass", we usually say...and I'm sure always mean...for its size. No one expects it to rumble down with 18" drivers, or infinite-baffle sub-systems. If you and your compadres look closely...you'll see I never said a peep about the numbers (and even, right off the bat... acknowledge they seem about right; although I still want to know where they come from). I only ever took exception with the rhetoric.

So tell me; in all honesty...even with the understanding that, to you, the "full musical spectrum" must mean 20-20k, at well over triple-digit DBs across the full FR sweep. Do you really feel...after listening to them...that Focus 160s can't "cover even just the narrowest possible view of the musical frequency spectrum"...without a subwoofer, and on their own? If so...again; please tell us about the listening sessions you conducted, because that's the part that kind of confuses me.
Edited by CDLehner - 1/9/13 at 4:19pm
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post #18323 of 19341
1/9/13 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

At some point a loudspeaker will reach its max spl from there the speaker compresses and loses spl, that is called compression. Compression drivers can put out much higher spls before compressing.
My guess is that is what arny's post was about...

Are you kidding me? Why do you feel the need to soften his post? He said the Focus 160 is a tiny speaker appropriate for late night use or use in a tiny apartment due to it's extremely restricted low frequency capabilities. It does not take an audiophile to determine this is a foolish and completely inaccurate statement. Anyone with even limited exposure to stereo equipment could quickly determine this after one quick listen to the Focus 160s.

It's the equivelent of saying that although I've never driven a corvette, I can tell from the engine specs that it would have very limited acceleration and would be appropriate only for elderly drivers on church outings.

The focus 160 as with all Dynaudio stand mount speakers is among the very strongest and most capable bass performers on the market today regardless of price. They will shame many floorstanding speakers both in quality and quantity of bass. Furthermore, it is far more likely to UNDER DRIVE them than over drive them. And, yes, I have personally owned them and at the time drove them with 300w/ch with no noticable distress what so ever.
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post #18324 of 19341
1/9/13 at 4:45pm
^Chart 3 in the link below tells a somewhat different story regarding Dynaudio bookshelf speakers and bass performance:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/dynaudio_confidence_c1/

Actually, that sounds like I'm singling out Dyns as being poor-performing in the bass range, and that's not my intent. My intent is to show that even the very best bookshelf speakers are generally poor performers in the bass region.
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post #18325 of 19341
1/9/13 at 4:56pm
From WhatHiFi review of Focus 160: "For speakers that stand just 35cm high, they deliver high volume and deep bass with impressive confidence. "

Not sure why they didn't mention Arny's dynamic range estimator...rolleyes.gif
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post #18326 of 19341
1/9/13 at 5:02pm
You're really quoting a review from What Hi-Fi, of all places, and thinking that helps an argument against a calculator developed by Sigfried Linkwitz?
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post #18327 of 19341
1/9/13 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

^Chart 3 in the link below tells a somewhat different story regarding Dynaudio bookshelf speakers and bass performance:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/dynaudio_confidence_c1/

Actually, that sounds like I'm singling out Dyns as being poor-performing in the bass range, and that's not my intent. My intent is to show that even the very best bookshelf speakers are generally poor performers in the bass region.

All speakers regardless of size have huge increases in THD in the bass frequencies. That is not indicative of poor bass performance. It is also not indicative of bass output capabilities.

That chart would be useful if we were comparing the Dyn C1 in that review to perfection. LOL! Unfortunately, we have to compare the speakers to OTHER speakers that exist. Using that more sane yard stick, the Dyns produce fantastic bass.

Qoute from that same soundstage review "Their bass was pitch defined and carried considerable weight into the 30Hz range,"

Please...rolleyes.gif
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post #18328 of 19341
1/9/13 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

You're really quoting a review from What Hi-Fi, of all places, and thinking that helps an argument against a calculator developed by Sigfried Linkwitz?

Does your magic calculator disprove any other well known facts? How about the earth rotating around the sun? What's your dynamic range calculator say about that?
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post #18329 of 19341
1/9/13 at 5:11pm
^Uhm, maybe all bookshelf speakers with a single 6 or 7 inch woofer have huge increases in bass THD, but not all speakers do. Look at some of their measurements for various tower speakers. Even the relatively cheap Energy RC-70 crushes the Dyns in bass performance.

And I think you may have just proved Arny's point by saying that. Ever seen THD measurements for subwoofers?

And, well, that Dyn is struggling even in the mid- and upper-bass, nevermind the truly deep bass.

What's more, look at Chart 4 and you'll see that the bass is beginning to compress (around 100Hz). For lots of speakers, they (NRC measurements) show an additional measurement at 95dB, and sometimes even at 100dB, and less compression is evident than what these show at 90dB.

So, continue, please, in making the case for a good subwoofer being used with bookshelf speakers for good bass....
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post #18330 of 19341
1/9/13 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxwired View Post

Does your magic calculator disprove any other well known facts? How about the earth rotating around the sun? What's your dynamic range calculator say about that?

I think you misunderstand what facts are, and what opinions are. I'm showing you facts, and you're hand-waving.
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