Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 612

OK; let's put aside for a second...that the "facts" on are your side; numbers let's say. Now, we always argue...unfairly you might say...that you "objectivists" are all huddled around in the basement, crunching numbers. I don't say that to be inciteful; quite the opposite. Prove us wrong.

Have you ever auditioned C1s or Focus 160s for that matter? I don't say that to challenge, and provoke an "ah ha" moment. I truly hope you have. I want to know if you thought they sounded to have weak bass. If so...that's cool; your opinion (opinion: they have weak bass...then based on numbers/facts to support it). I would love to know, what speaker with the same size cabinet and drivers...you find to have "good" bass (and, of course...what's good for the goose is good for the gander; the numbers to support that speaker please).

Because...if after all this...you guys are simply going to say "we weren't singling Dyns out; all bookshelves have weak bass", we'll cry foul. The argument only stands up, in context. If Dyns have weak bass...by comparison to other speakers their size, then that's weak bass. If ALL bookshelves/monitors have weak bass...but Dyns have better measured bass than others of similar size; that, in fact, is good bass (for their size). Which is all anyone has ever said...and still, no one answers the other questions, lol.

Ok tell me what 7" driver that does bass (nothing else) down to 20hz without loosing any spl. I'll give you hint - none. To get to 20 you need at least 12" to pressurize even a small room. What irritates me about the statement is not the fact they don't go down to 20hz but saying they are for low level - late night tiny rooms only. Try putting the Consequence UE in even a 15 X15' room and tell me they sound good. They won't. The C2's are too much for my 12 X 26.5 room. Several people have come over to hear my C1's and all have stated how good the bass sounds and that's with the sub disconnected. But in all honesty these folks own Klipsch and they are are used to a 1 note bass thump. In other words what they hear are the lowest bass note that the C1's do but accurately and clean. So even I take issue with the fact you say If you absolutely need more bass yes get a sub but don't cross it over at 80hz. Why because you will pick up the lowest octave but at the same time you will add too much at the 40 - 80 hz region. Also you will be able to point where the sub is located which at least for me is too disjointed of the overall sound. Last there are very few recordings that go below 40hz anyway. Side note - there is a person on A'gon who had and loved Focals monitors and traded them for C1's. Then dumped the C1's for having too much bass in a 15 X 15' room. There are all types of listeners.

CD took the words out of my mouth. I was thinking the same thing. All animosity aside (don't really have any, just having fun), Beaveav seems to put a lot of faith in measurements and calculations to determine speaker quality. I don't discount this entirely, but i rely more on listening to make an assessment of speaker quality. It occurs to me that listening to a pair of Focus 160s could potentially lead to Beaveav's loss of faith in the use of the measurements to predict speaker quality. I only say this because the Focus 160 is such a outstanding bass performer that there appears to me to be a grossly obvious contradiction between reality and Arny's measurements and calculations. A objective person listening to the Focus 160s bass performance (compared to other real world book shelf speakers) would have a lot of trouble squaring this contradiction.

Is that why he's dumping them??

Or Jax, we could be grossly overestimating the Dyns good bass performance. If we listen to PMC, and Harbeth, and Paradigm, and Monitor Audio, and Usher, and B&W; and they ALL suck...so it's just that Dynaudio is better than all of those, but still terrible by comparison to some others. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Guys, can I be more clear? BRANDS...we want them! What are the same size speakers, that put Dyns to shame...with regard to bass response. If I see one more chart or graph, without the name of a speaker; this argument is over.

The point is, bookshelf speakers do not produce amazing bass by the nature of their construction and design; however, Dynaudios do well for their size. Arny's phrasing was what caused the problem. Look back to his original post in the other thread, see if you feel that his statements are accurate. I found his claims to be a bit exaggerated.

Not Khin That is NVP Paul in Europe somewhere. I went a few rounds with Paul on A'gon regarding the C1's and he bought them. Then dumped them for horns. I have a feeling some day he'll go back to the C1's and this time with either the MKII's or Sigs.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1325118156&openfrom&22&4#22
I can only guess but between some e-mails I think Khin prefers a slightly more forward sound in the mids and upper mids. He is eye balling some Focal floorstander and personally they like the Sapphires would be a better fit for the size of his room. In fact in Khin's room he could get away with Evidence Masters (but not with the Pass XA30.5).

Wow, how am I being made the bad guy here? I know what the 160s are capable of I own them, I love them, I think they're the best bookshelf $3k can buy. But I know for a bookshelf they will at some point have limitations.

However I don't believe 50 watts will over power them. I too have heard them with 50-100-150 and 300 wpc driven quite loudly. I don't think they are for a dormitory with thin walls. My house has thin walls and my wife always says the bass comes they the walls too much. As far as a sub is concerned, I think that's up to ones own preference. I don't use a sub for music ever.

Fwiw, I am a Dyn fanboy but I realize there are limits of what's capable. I also don't know if army actually measured the speakers or "just an estimate" which I'm guessing is an estimate.

I must have missed something. Who indicated you were the bad guy?? I haven't seen your name come up at all actually.

If you are looking for huge bass out of a bookshelf you are looking in the wrong place. That said I will say that in my room with 3 different sets of Dyn.'s and other speakers I have auditioned I have been most impressed with the bass quality versus quantity out of the Dynaudio's. Quantity was not in short supply especially with my Focus 140's when I had them. They offered more than my 1.4's or previous 1.3MKII's. Also in terms of overpowering them... In a real world depending on our listening habits our amps are rarely using the actual measured wattage. I powered all of my speakers so far with 600 watts from a cinenova grande and even at reference they loved every minute.

Distortion kills speakers so a crappy signal chain, amplification, or asking them to reproduce 20HZ at 110DB will kill them, aside from that, they love power.

I am NOT saying a bookshelf on it's own will fill the lowest octave's, however we enter the realm of listener preference as to what is acceptable to them in terms of performance.

Moral of the story, measurement smeasurement, I give a **** about measurement, my ears tell me in my room with my gear what I like and if I am happy. Not some random person on the internet or a graph or pie chart.

Deflection? Hardly. 

 

You just did exactly as I asked you too, discuss the topic at hand vs going off on your tangents. Now was that so hard?

 

As you can see the topic is very simple, either the speaker produces said frequency at the desired listening level with usable output or it doesn't. If someone who's interested in the Focus 160's can accept the compromised bass response or doesn't listen loud enough to get the driver to compress that's great. It's no skin off my back. 

 

I listened to the 160's back to back with the Monitor Audio GX 100's over the summer and while the Dyn bass was better I didn't feel at the time the gap was as big as most of the participants in this thread claim. I've owned the C1's and Focus 110's, so I am familiar with the capabilities of Dyn bookshelf's in the bass department. I sold the C1's after about a month and a half because the dynamic range was too limited for my tastes. If they suit yours or others that's good that you've found what your looking for, they just didn't do it for me. This is most likely due to bias for tower speakers and using subwoofers, which both the C1's and Focus 110's I used my subwoofers probably 85% of the time for muisc. I'm not a two channel music first guy like most of you in this thread so my take on things and priorities may not match up with yours or others.

 

Arny's measurements or guesstimates I should say probably aren't far off the mark but like you I call them into question for the same reasons you do. If you going to post numbers like that posing them as fact then you should provide some evidence to back them up. The comments about the speakers capabilities are obviously an exaggeration, that was pretty plain for all to see and should be taken with a grain of salt. As far as the overdriven comment you have to read between the lines on that one, the OP's definition of over driven seems to be at the first signs of compression which could be occurring around the 50w mark as in gn77b's model is suggesting, although I don't want to put words in his mouth.

 

It's not really your argument or that I vehemently disagree about Dynaudio speakers, obviously not as I own them. Again like you I take exception to your rhetoric that measurements are the devil and anyone who thinks measurements are a valuable tool are dorks hiding in the basement. I don't think they're the be all and end all but neither is just listening. The combination of the two usually produces the best results or at least I think so anyway. Just don't be so close minded about the subject CD, our ears aren't as good as we'd like to think. On the flip side of that a microphone can't measure everything we're hearing either, I just think you've taken the wrong fork in the road. ( but who am I anyway? ) You can agree or disagree with me, that's of no consequence to either of us, mostly I just enjoyed busting your chops when you get the wars drums started.

Fixed your post for you.

All speakers would sound bad in a 15x15 room. The square dimension would be an acoustic nightmare.

My guess would be...in each case, you heard them with less than 20 watts applied, continuous. That would still be quite loud.

Sorry. I don't get this. Measurements are the only way to determine the limitations of a speaker, amp, or, room. Unless you are trained in the art of listening to distortion, ringing, etc., your ears may not tell you the "truth", even though you may like the sound. If you like the sound, and that sound happens to have 10% THD, then great. But that doesn't mean what you're listening to is the best speaker on the planet.

Oh, and I own the s1.4 for a center and love it.

Also, love your room. Great job....looks fantastic.

^^^ What a joke; and not a great one either. This went from a holy war, and "don't mess with Arny...he's the second coming" to...oh, Dyns are fine; bookshelves in general don't produce much bass; to...um, they produce more bass than XYZ brand...just not enough to justify the difference in cost; to...bookshelves don't produce as much bass as towers; to...oh, Arny went too far with his rhetoric (which is all I ever took issue with from the start); to...we love Dyns CD, we were just busting your chops. Seriously; what a load.

As for those indicating "I'm on the wrong path"; WTF are any of you, to think you know me? That's a special kind of crazy; not even just your run-of-the-mill, I-post-on-the-Internet crazy. I'm not against numbers, in theory; what kind of maniac argues with science. I just don't see how they enter the process (and they don't for me).

I know about speaker brands. I have some that I have a natural curiosity about. Let's say, I've always been curious about...Spendor. Then, I read a good review about a certain Spendor model that catches my eye; I might go "hmm...don't always trust what the reviewers say; those guys like EVERYTHING. Plus they're on the take", lol. Better see what people on the boards think. Now...I know certain people, and I think...from getting to know them, and their tastes...whose opinion I can count on, to jibe with mine...more or less. So I might ask them "hey...what do you think of Spendor". If I get positive feedback, I might seek-out the Spendor group. Of course they'll like it; it's like when people come into our group, and ask about Dyns. But we try to be honest; if someone says "I really like bright-ass speakers", we might say "hmm, might not be for you". So I might ask the Spendor guys "I've liked Dyn...I like my Harbeths, for different reasons"; I'd hope they'd ask about my gear and taste in music (As I always do), etc. Then they might give me their take. Then...I'd probably ask the guys I've gotten to know here. Might not openly, in the forum...because it's rude, in the Dyn forum, to ask about another speaker; but I might ask the guys I trust, privately "hey man...thinking about trying Spendor; ever heard 'em? What do you think? Compare/contrast with Dyn?", etc.

If after ALL that, I'm still hot for these Spendor...I do the ONLY thing that matters; I GO LISTEN FOR MYSELF. I either audition (rarely, as that doesn't tell me how they'll sound with my gear, my room)...or I buy a pair (usually used), and give them a good evaluation. Either I like them or I don't. How can there be anything more than that? I'm really asking; at what point, do you guys pull out the microphone and say "hmm, EVERYONE loves them; and I love them too...sound great. But the mic says no good...off they go"? What I suspect, and hope...is that unlike me, you use the measurements to get curious about a speaker to begin with. You don't start the above process, without seeing that they've measured well. OK, that's cool. It's not my process, but if that's what you do...that's fine.

But I wish I had access to some FR responses for several speakers; and all kinds of pie-charts and graphs, as someone else put it (I don't even know where to find that stuff). I'd love to post one and say "tell me guys; how would this speaker do with some Jazz"? "Uh huh; and how does that speakers do with solo piano"? "OK great; and this speaker...will this speaker sound congested, when handling complex, dense passages"? "OK...and this sweep; can you tell me if it does a good job capturing hall cues from The Koln Concert"? That's fine if you guys use numbers; but yes, I will stand up and say...if I read a good review, everyone I talk to likes them. I listen to them, and I like them...even if you showed me "bad" numbers, I wouldn't say "oh...that's that then; back they go". I wouldn't like it; it's always nice, when what you think is confirmed by science. But in the end, I don't listen to those numbers...and I don't listen with a microphone. I listen with this brain, and these ears (and yes, everyone...to a certain extent, listens with their eyes); if they tell me I like it, that's the only frame of reference I'm going to have moving forward...so I'm going to go with that.

For the record: it's not cool to admit, you basically just wanted to rev someone up. In fact, it's probably a board violation. I'm not here for your amusement. Unlike some of my brethren, I'll fight-back when someone says "you're wrong...you're stupid; your speakers suck" (and they're not even my speakers anymore). But what I find...with a certain, unnamed ilk; is that as long as you're flailing about, like a maniac...they're happy to keep pushing button with non-sense. As soon as you calm down, and start asking pertinent questions...and actually asking them to defend their arguments; they're either no where to be found, or back-pedaling so hard, they're liable to break something.
Edited by CDLehner - 1/10/13 at 5:54am

Sorry; must not get the "joke". Harbeth twice; so Harbeth sucks? Is that the idea?

Hey listen, no one understands the trade-offs better than I. After all...I've owned Dyns and Harbeth, right in my very own listening room. Have you? Or are you just going by reputation and numbers?

Yes, Harbeth have compromises; but I don't think it's fair or accurate to say they "suck". There's more to music, than BIG BASS...and maybe someday, you'll come to the same conclusion, or it'll be a preference you'll trade for. Or not; but to say they suck, because they're not your cup of tea, is ignorant. Not offensive, mind you; I could less what you think. Just ill-informed.
Edited by CDLehner - 1/10/13 at 5:56am

Are you suggesting that I posted them as fact?

Remember, the tabular information that was attributed to me was not posted here by me.

It was brought here secretly by someone who lacks what it takes to deal with people in a straight forward fashion.

It appears to me that gn777b's post and the bastardized version of mine that was ripped off and mangled before posting here tell very similar stories.

You can only get so much bass out of a ca. 7" driver, according to the laws of physics.

How do you express that in a post on a forum? It would seem that the use of standard terms like frequency and SPL would be the best way to do that.

Apparently the use of industry-standard terms and methodologies is a controversial topic in some people's minds.

I'm under the impression that people don't buy Dynaudio speakers to have substandard systems.

To hopefully change the mood around here.....I've listed my McCormack pre/power combo for sale as A) I'd like a change B) need to do some downsizing. I currently have the LD-2/DNA-250 which I have enjoyed but won't lie, its probably more than I need for our small place. If I can sell it (tough market right now) I'd like to find a good integrated.

Speakers = S1.4
Sub = SVS PB12-Plus
Source = Oppo 103 and PC/HRT Music Streamer II+

Currently my system is connects like this:

Oppo L/R channels going through the HT bypass and the SUB is direct to the subwoofer. The Oppo controls the volume level.
PC - DAC - pre giving me straight 2 channel and no sub.

The Oppo is used mostly for movies and computer is mostly for music. Hope that all makes sense.

Anybody willing to recommend some IA to shop? Would still like to keep the same configuration if possible as I need the sub for movies. Budget is $1,000-1,500 but will to stretch to $2K if need be. New or used are OK.

Some ideas I had so far.

Atoll IN200 SE
NAD C375BEE
Niam (do they have a HT bypass?)
Simaudio i2 or i3

Listening levels are not crazy loud do to being in an apt (joys of the big city and overpriced housing) but still want something with enough grunt to drive the S1.4's.

I think you used a bit more than "standard terms like frequency and SPL" when you threw in your oh-so carefully-worded description.

Edit: I think I'm gonna stay off this forum for a few days and wait for things to cool down.

wantmorehd, if you're in to tubes, primaluna has some nice amps, if you're looking for something that's been reviewed well at a fairly budget price, the HK 990 could be an option. The peachtree nova 125 also has my interest at this point. Good luck in your search!
Edited by amatuerholic - 1/10/13 at 9:03am

Naim Nait XS (latest version) has HT bypass, and plenty of grunt to drive your S1.4s. I think the Nait 5i (latest) has HT bypass, but am not sure.

please someone fill me in. have we established yet who has the largest Internet p***s?

Anyone compare the usher be-718 to the dynaudio focus 160?

I have the largest internet bladder. I just piss on all of it.

no-one said that all bookshelves have weak bass, there is NO way anyone can tell the bass capabilities only by driver/enclosure size. some pro drivers would be considered subwoofer-worthy by audiophile standards if judged by size alone but some of them are mid-basses at best, incapable of real low frequency output, no matter what kind of enclosure you put them into.
but its a fact of physics that for real bass you need to move a large amount of air, which is proportional to cone excursion times cone area. so you either design a large driver which will be incapable of reproducing anything except bass (because of break-up and the fact that the larger the cone the worst the dispersion is at higher frequencies) or a smaller one with better midrange, but which will also have to move more. making a driver that is able to move by a lot while at the same stay linear is difficult. not necessarily impossible but it will be expensive.
so how come a bookshelf can still be listenable? for one, what one thinks is deep bass is actually many times in the range between 50 and 80 Hz. one can mistake punch for bass. take any song featuring a complete drum kit and look at the frequency content around bass drum kicks. it's in the 80Hz range, or maybe a bit lower, depending on the drum kit setup. if you look at the frequency response of many speakers you'll see that a large portion have a bump of few dBs in that range. coincidence? not.
then there is Fletcher-Munson, the lower the SPL, the lower perceived bass (and highs). some manufacturers have ways to compensate for this too, not sure if Dyna does it.

but even ignoring all the above, it would be enough to look at the fact that with almost any company the upper level models have more and digger bas drivers.

ok, I have the biggest e-p***s LOL

The nait 5i does have a htpb

^^^ This place is lord of the flies.

Thread dying.

if you stepped aside for a few seconds you'd realize that it's not that bad. I know it looks like a "my dad can beat your dad" thing but it's not that. it only becomes that if you want it to. also remember that I do own Dynaudio speakers (and expensive ones at that, I payed for my second hand ones about the price of a new pair of Focuses) and I didn't do it at gunpoint. hope I was able to get the message through. oh, and my last e-p**** remark was a joke. just like the previous ones were.

Do you really not find posts, such as the above one from gn77b, interesting?

Are you being serious, or just trying to drag this thing out? Do you mean the post, where he enlightens that..."no bookshelf speaker can have as much bass as a bigger speaker"? See...I can't tell if you guys really think we're that dumb, or if you're just laughing your a**es off. Believe it or not, I sure hope you just like that fact that it seems to get my goat.

And while we're at it...can we drop the "bookshelf" moniker; only an idiot, would sit a speaker like the C1 on a shelf. Please...a little respect; it's a stand-mount.

EDIT-gn77b, I don't mean to be a jerk. It's "nice" of you to offer, what you think is a welcome lesson. But sometimes an unsolicited lesson, isn't always welcome. Sorry; despite what some might think...I know enough about "audio", to know bigger drivers move more air than smaller ones.
Edited by CDLehner - 1/10/13 at 5:15pm