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Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 644

post #19291 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

I did not hear them myself but know 3 different people who have owned (some of them even multiple models) or liked Dynas until they heard the Raidhos. some of them afforded and bought them.
in all honesty, the only people I met who spoke bad things of the Raidhos were the ones with a conflicting financial interest. except those, everyone who heard them, and I do mean everyone had only superlative things to say. one of the ex Dyna fanboys said "after you hear the Raidhos you're Dyna what?".
My complaint regarding Raidho's is the price. That's because I can't afford them - plain and simple rolleyes.gif Honestly I had to really really stretch my budget just to get the C1's.
post #19292 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

My complaint regarding Raidho's is the price. That's because I can't afford them - plain and simple rolleyes.gif Honestly I had to really really stretch my budget just to get the C1's.
no, don't get me wrong, I was kinda confirming what you said not trying to convince you of something.
post #19293 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

no, don't get me wrong, I was kinda confirming what you said not trying to convince you of something.
I didn't get you wrong. I know there are a lot of people that will will bad mouth products they can't afford. Instead they should admit it's better and chalk it up to the old 'point of diminishing returns'. That's how I look at it (since I can't afford them). Are the D1's 3 times better than the dyn C1's. No - Not even close. In my opinion I would say they are a good 25% better for over 3 times the price. But every % does count - just are you willing to pay it?
post #19294 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

I would say they are a good 25% better...

Impossible!
post #19295 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

I didn't get you wrong. I know there are a lot of people that will will bad mouth products they can't afford. Instead they should admit it's better and chalk it up to the old 'point of diminishing returns'. That's how I look at it (since I can't afford them). Are the D1's 3 times better than the dyn C1's. No - Not even close. In my opinion I would say they are a good 25% better for over 3 times the price. But every % does count - just are you willing to pay it?

And it's always that last nth, that costs the most. I mean, you might get "10 times better" (though that's an awfully hard thing to quantify)...going from $1k to $10k; but you won't necessarily get twice as good...going from $10k, to $20k. I don't begrudge anyone...who will spend thousands, just to get that last, little bit; if it suits them (or really just for bragging rights). But most of us in the real world, have to be bang-for-buck champions; even if that means "slumming it" with Dyns...lol biggrin.gif

Still...I'd love to hear them! The missus is from Chicago; in fact she's there right now. I beg-off the trips most of the time; but maybe I'll have to pay my in-laws a visit soon. Oh...and stop by Tyler's while I'm there. wink.gif

See what happens Dyn; when all you offer us, is an "Excite" update? The biggest topic of conversation in the thread, is Raidho...lol. (and I still want to know, what happened with that "you get to name it" contest???)

Speaking of Law Of Diminishing Returns; anyone catch this blurb http://onlycreative.it/

Your eyes aren't deceiving you; that's 2 x 60,000 strong watts per side! (or 6 x 20,000, you know...for that kick-ass HT; with a total headroom of 160,000 watt peaks) eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

Most outrageous thing...this doesn't appear to be some absurd, publicity stunt; that'll never make it past trade-shows and prototype. It appears, this is a sequel...to the downright wimpy, Opera One http://www.hometheater.com/content/pivetta-opera-one-multichannel-power-amp. That unit...was a mere 12 x 1600; at a cost of $650k. So...just guess what this new Opera Only will go for.

Here's a question: what speakers will you use, that won't just shatter...at the mere hint of 60,000 watts? Maybe that driver, from Back To The Future?
post #19296 of 21640
Some Dyn porn for everyone...and of course my cat cosmo...



post #19297 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

And it's always that last nth, that costs the most. I mean, you might get "10 times better" (though that's an awfully hard thing to quantify)...going from $1k to $10k; but you won't necessarily get twice as good...going from $10k, to $20k. I don't begrudge anyone...who will spend thousands, just to get that last, little bit; if it suits them (or really just for bragging rights). But most of us in the real world, have to be bang-for-buck champions; even if that means "slumming it" with Dyns...lol biggrin.gif

Still...I'd love to hear them! The missus is from Chicago; in fact she's there right now. I beg-off the trips most of the time; but maybe I'll have to pay my in-laws a visit soon. Oh...and stop by Tyler's while I'm there. wink.gif

See what happens Dyn; when all you offer us, is an "Excite" update? The biggest topic of conversation in the thread, is Raidho...lol. (and I still want to know, what happened with that "you get to name it" contest???)

Speaking of Law Of Diminishing Returns; anyone catch this blurb http://onlycreative.it/

Your eyes aren't deceiving you; that's 2 x 60,000 strong watts per side! (or 6 x 20,000, you know...for that kick-ass HT; with a total headroom of 160,000 watt peaks) eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

Most outrageous thing...this doesn't appear to be some absurd, publicity stunt; that'll never make it past trade-shows and prototype. It appears, this is a sequel...to the downright wimpy, Opera One http://www.hometheater.com/content/pivetta-opera-one-multichannel-power-amp. That unit...was a mere 12 x 1600; at a cost of $650k. So...just guess what this new Opera Only will go for.

Here's a question: what speakers will you use, that won't just shatter...at the mere hint of 60,000 watts? Maybe that driver, from Back To The Future?
That would be something to be used in a theater with an array of evidence masters biggrin.gif

The other problem I would see if I did get the Raidho's is then I would have to upgrade my amp. eek.gif

Speaking of amps now that I've had a little time with the Octave V110 I will say it has a hair more control of the music compared to the V70. The problem for me is I don't really care for the KT120's. A little too forward and bright for my tastes. In time I'll some different 'little' tubes. I would like to 'like' the KT120's but for now I have some Ei KT90's running in high power and they are much more to my liking. Again it's all personal taste. I have still yet to try some of my other tubes in 'low' power mode. I assume I will lose that hair more control but that's OK with me. smile.gif
post #19298 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

The problem for me is I don't really care for the KT120's. A little too forward and bright for my tastes. In time I'll some different 'little' tubes. I would like to 'like' the KT120's but for now I have some Ei KT90's running in high power and they are much more to my liking. Again it's all personal taste. I have still yet to try some of my other tubes in 'low' power mode. I assume I will lose that hair more control but that's OK with me. smile.gif

Help me, Obi-Wan wink.gif

Now that I've made my Sophie's Choice (omg...is that really just wholly inappropriate; when referring to audio kit...lol), and decided on the ARC VSi-55 (and yes...it appears the CA-200 has a new home); I want to try a new Quad for her OD_D.

It came with Svetlana Winged 6550Cs...which are supposed to be like, the "best" fit; and you get no argument from me...hence the packing of the aforementioned C-J. But what audiophile can leave good-enough-to-make-me-sell-my-amp good, well enough alone? I asked the ARC guy, about whether KT88s would work easily enough in this circuit. He actually suggested KT120s!

I was ecstatic to hear, it should have no problem handling this high-output tube...as that makes ALL variants; KT88, 90, 120...an option. And I've always wanted to try this tube...as it seemingly gets universal praise.

But at the same time...I haven't pulled the trigger; because I've wondered...is the KT120, sort of the un-tube tube? High power, big bass, etc. Don't get me wrong; love me all that...but at what expense; do you lose, some of what is great about tubes to begin with? You're the first one, I can recall, kind of saying something along those lines OD_D (not to put words in your mouth).

Also...even if the KT120s, might be "better" than a KT88; I also...at least as I start my venture in tube-rolling...want something that is different, than the Winged 6550Cs. So...wise-one; what would you suggest? A Quad of KT120s, or...Genelex Gold Lion KT88s (which is also a tube, I lusted after...back when a tube amp, called to me like a siren-song)?
post #19299 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

That would be something to be used in a theater with an array of evidence masters biggrin.gif

Spec says their power-handling is >600w; think they mean 59,400 watts greater? biggrin.gif
post #19300 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Help me, Obi-Wan wink.gif

Now that I've made my Sophie's Choice (omg...is that really just wholly inappropriate; when referring to audio kit...lol), and decided on the ARC VSi-55 (and yes...it appears the CA-200 has a new home); I want to try a new Quad for her OD_D.

It came with Svetlana Winged 6550Cs...which are supposed to be like, the "best" fit; and you get no argument from me...hence the packing of the aforementioned C-J. But what audiophile can leave good-enough-to-make-me-sell-my-amp good, well enough alone? I asked the ARC guy, about whether KT88s would work easily enough in this circuit. He actually suggested KT120s!

I was ecstatic to hear, it should have no problem handling this high-output tube...as that makes ALL variants; KT88, 90, 120...an option. And I've always wanted to try this tube...as it seemingly gets universal praise.

But at the same time...I haven't pulled the trigger; because I've wondered...is the KT120, sort of the un-tube tube? High power, big bass, etc. Don't get me wrong; love me all that...but at what expense; do you lose, some of what is great about tubes to begin with? You're the first one, I can recall, kind of saying something along those lines OD_D (not to put words in your mouth).

Also...even if the KT120s, might be "better" than a KT88; I also...at least as I start my venture in tube-rolling...want something that is different, than the Winged 6550Cs. So...wise-one; what would you suggest? A Quad of KT120s, or...Genelex Gold Lion KT88s (which is also a tube, I lusted after...back when a tube amp, called to me like a siren-song)?
Since I am familiar with the SED 6550 I can say the KT120's are very similar. Very linear. As far as the KT120 in a lower voltage circuit I haven't tried that yet. Octave low voltage is 540V which is actually quite high compared with a lot of tube amps. In high voltage it is 620V. Do you have any idea what the plate voltage is with the ARC? Now the SED KT88 is much warmer in the mids and low end with slightly rolled off highs. The Gold Lion re-issue is somewhere in the middle. Not quite as warm as the SED but very nice. Now vintage Gold lions are a lot more like the SED 6550 but not as dry sounding but a world more expensive when you can find them. OK as far as dry it isn't earth shattering but a we are talking a couple of those percent things LOL biggrin.gif So what would I recommend? Well if you like the linearity of the SED 6550 the KT120 is a good choice. They are able to be pushed harder due to their specs. But if you are looking for a little warmer the GL re-issues would be my choice. Another option I have not heard myself but come highly recommended are the EH KT88 or KT90. A couple of other Octave mre owners preferred the EH over the SED and GL re-issue. If you are looking at KT120's - GL re-issue or EH I highly recommend Jim McShane for he matches tubes much better than the factory. Make sure to tell him what amp you have.

Again the reason I haven't tried too many current production tubes is because I can get them any day of the week. Vintage tubes on the other hand will never be made again. And when they are like the GL they are not even close to originals. The original Tung Sol 6550 solid grey and black plates are my favorites to date. Original Tesla NOT JJ are a super close second but they were not designed to higher plate voltages and they blow in less than 50 hrs for me. Eat is the same way but talk about linear. They are the best. At 450 a tube I need them to last longer than 50 hrs eek.gif
post #19301 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Spec says their power-handling is >600w; think they mean 59,400 watts greater? biggrin.gif
When I said arrry I mean at least a dozen pairs run in both series and parallel biggrin.gif
Got to give them a little headroom.
post #19302 of 21640
Forgot to mention you will get NOT any more power out the KT120's. Why because power is voltage times current and the only way would be to increase the voltage. Again you MAY be able to push them a little harder giving you the impression they have more power. SS on the other hand is current squared times resistance which is why a lot of ss amps can double their power when cutting the impedence in half !!
Edited by OctaDyn_Dude - 5/11/13 at 12:38pm
post #19303 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Since I am familiar with the SED 6550 I can say the KT120's are very similar. Very linear. As far as the KT120 in a lower voltage circuit I haven't tried that yet. Octave low voltage is 540V which is actually quite high compared with a lot of tube amps. In high voltage it is 620V. Do you have any idea what the plate voltage is with the ARC? Now the SED KT88 is much warmer in the mids and low end with slightly rolled off highs. The Gold Lion re-issue is somewhere in the middle. Not quite as warm as the SED but very nice. Now vintage Gold lions are a lot more like the SED 6550 but not as dry sounding but a world more expensive when you can find them. OK as far as dry it isn't earth shattering but a we are talking a couple of those percent things LOL biggrin.gif So what would I recommend? Well if you like the linearity of the SED 6550 the KT120 is a good choice. They are able to be pushed harder due to their specs. But if you are looking for a little warmer the GL re-issues would be my choice. Another option I have not heard myself but come highly recommended are the EH KT88 or KT90. A couple of other Octave mre owners preferred the EH over the SED and GL re-issue. If you are looking at KT120's - GL re-issue or EH I highly recommend Jim McShane for he matches tubes much better than the factory. Make sure to tell him what amp you have.

Again the reason I haven't tried too many current production tubes is because I can get them any day of the week. Vintage tubes on the other hand will never be made again. And when they are like the GL they are not even close to originals. The original Tung Sol 6550 solid grey and black plates are my favorites to date. Original Tesla NOT JJ are a super close second but they were not designed to higher plate voltages and they blow in less than 50 hrs for me. Eat is the same way but talk about linear. They are the best. At 450 a tube I need them to last longer than 50 hrs eek.gif

I don't OD_D; and can't find it anywhere either. I'll probably call the ARC guy, because that's info I wouldn't mind having.

Sounds like a Quad of Gold Lions is in my future (first anyway; I'm sure I'll get around, to KT120s at some point...lol). So...if I can ask; why do you recommend someone like Jim McShane...over say Kevin at Upscale (who I've also heard is very helpful) (or do you just recommend him over the factory?)
post #19304 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I don't OD_D; and can't find it anywhere either. I'll probably call the ARC guy, because that's info I wouldn't mind having.

Sounds like a Quad of Gold Lions is in my future (first anyway; I'm sure I'll get around, to KT120s at some point...lol). So...if I can ask; why do you recommend someone like Jim McShane...over say Kevin at Upscale (who I've also heard is very helpful) (or do you just recommend him over the factory?)
Well I've personally met Jim. He lives about an hour away and I was at his house when he was rejecting some GL's because they didn't meet the Jim McShane standards. Funny you mention Kevin at Upsacale. Jim knows Kevin and highly recommended him too based on his matching technique. Jim also won't give out his phone # which is a good thing because when I met him he loves to talk like me so we got along. biggrin.gif I do not recommend E-pray for new tubes for most sellers use the factory matching which is far from good. Now I do have to ask a stupid question. Do you know how to bias tubes in the ARC? I ask because you just can't throw a set of tubes in unless the ARC is auto biasing. Also if the ARC is auto biasing you need a real tightly matched set.

As far as ARC plate voltage you may want to pm Hifigeek1 on A'gon. I don't think if you asked how to bias the tubes on the forum he would answer that because he is an authorized repair station for ARC.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1368115837&&&/Audio-Research-Reference-5SE-reliability
post #19305 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Well I've personally met Jim. He lives about an hour away and I was at his house when he was rejecting some GL's because they didn't meet the Jim McShane standards. Funny you mention Kevin at Upsacale. Jim knows Kevin and highly recommended him too based on his matching technique. Jim also won't give out his phone # which is a good thing because when I met him he loves to talk like me so we got along. biggrin.gif I do not recommend E-pray for new tubes for most sellers use the factory matching which is far from good. Now I do have to ask a stupid question. Do you know how to bias tubes in the ARC? I ask because you just can't throw a set of tubes in unless the ARC is auto biasing. Also if the ARC is auto biasing you need a real tightly matched set.

As far as ARC plate voltage you may want to pm Hifigeek1 on A'gon. I don't think if you asked how to bias the tubes on the forum he would answer that because he is an authorized repair station for ARC.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1368115837&&&/Audio-Research-Reference-5SE-reliability

Maybe we're officially OT now OD_D. I'll PM you with more. Thanks
post #19306 of 21640
The white grill looks pretty slick, didn't think I'd like it all that much by the sound, but that's pretty cool.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-dynaudio-x36-speaker-pair-in-beautiful-gloss-white-2013-05-10-speakers-94110-san-francisco-ca
post #19307 of 21640
Well hey guys, I haven't been around this place for quite some time.. guess the C1's have been satisfying my needs for a good while, but yeah.. the 'itch' is starting again I guess, so I read up the posts I've missed. Most names here still look familiar, thats good I guess.. so yeah... the 'itch'..

Lets sum up my gear so far:
iMac > USB >
rDAC > some kind of interlink I forgot the brand/type.. but who cares anyway... >
Roksan Kandy K2 (IA; 190W into 4Ω) > Kimber cables & WBT plugs > C1's
> Stock REL High Level cable > REL B1

All of that in my terrible room that is something like 11 x 17, left side has windows and also the roof slopes on the left side from the 2 meter (approx 7') to something like more then 3 meters (approx 10') on the right.

Looks something like this (yeah, my room is like a jungle):


I am looking for stuff to upgrade. I am mostly interested in room treatments. I will probably only stay for around 1~2 years in this room, before I move (unless house prices start rising real soon), but I want to use this opportunity to experiment a bit with room treatments. You guys have tips on where to start? My biggest problem is poor bass performance. I have a big peak @ 33Hz and the B1 can't compensate, so I pretty much miss all lows below that point. Also I seem to miss a lot around the 50Hz range.

I am also looking for upgrading my amp, but a bit later, after I've worked on my room. While the Roksan is good for its price (around € 900 iirc), it has a little defect on the right channel, making it slightly weaker then the left channel and on low volumes the right channel sometimes completely disappears. Since the Roksan pretty much beat most amps I auditioned back then till the 2k price range, I will be looking for something above that price range. I listen to all sorts of genres, but also a lot of electronic music, which has high dynamics, and lots of bass, so I am looking for an amp that can easily control the C1's. I am open for all kinds of suggestions. I will then search for dealers that have both C1's and the suggested amps (luckily I live in one of the smallest countries in the world, so there are quite a few large dealers always nearby) and audition them.

Also other possible upgrades are welcome ;-)
post #19308 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

Also other possible upgrades are welcome ;-)

First thing I would do is "upgrade" the room setup.

Have you experimented with different speaker position and listening position placements?

And the table between the two speakers like that won't be doing you any favours either.

Good room orientation is the biggest factor in what you hear from a certain set of speakers.

Neglecting this first and most important step is going to create an awful lot of compromises in the additional steps.
post #19309 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

Well hey guys, I haven't been around this place for quite some time.. guess the C1's have been satisfying my needs for a good while, but yeah.. the 'itch' is starting again I guess, so I read up the posts I've missed. Most names here still look familiar, thats good I guess.. so yeah... the 'itch'..

Lets sum up my gear so far:
iMac > USB >
rDAC > some kind of interlink I forgot the brand/type.. but who cares anyway... >
Roksan Kandy K2 (IA; 190W into 4Ω) > Kimber cables & WBT plugs > C1's
> Stock REL High Level cable > REL B1

All of that in my terrible room that is something like 11 x 17, left side has windows and also the roof slopes on the left side from the 2 meter (approx 7') to something like more then 3 meters (approx 10') on the right.

Looks something like this (yeah, my room is like a jungle):


I am looking for stuff to upgrade. I am mostly interested in room treatments. I will probably only stay for around 1~2 years in this room, before I move (unless house prices start rising real soon), but I want to use this opportunity to experiment a bit with room treatments.

I am also looking for upgrading my amp, but a bit later, after I've worked on my room. While the Roksan is good for its price (around € 900 iirc), it has a little defect on the right channel, making it slightly weaker then the left channel and on low volumes the right channel sometimes completely disappears. Since the Roksan pretty much beat most amps I auditioned back then till the 2k price range, I will be looking for something above that price range. I listen to all sorts of genres, but also a lot of electronic music, which has high dynamics, and lots of bass, so I am looking for an amp that can easily control the C1's. I am open for all kinds of suggestions. I will then search for dealers that have both C1's and the suggested amps (luckily I live in one of the smallest countries in the world, so there are quite a few large dealers always nearby) and audition them.

Also other possible upgrades are welcome ;-)

I found adding sand to the Stand4 will make all tones a little more pronounced and clearer. Me personally have only the rear leg 3/4 full.
Quote:
You guys have tips on where to start? My biggest problem is poor bass performance. I have a big peak @ 33Hz and the B1 can't compensate, so I pretty much miss all lows below that point. Also I seem to miss a lot around the 50Hz range.

Where do you have the sub crossed over? I have C1's with just a Rel B3 and it sounds fine below 30hz (per test frequency cd's). I have my B3 crossed over at 30hz and the gain up at almost 11 o'clock. Switching out the stock Rel cable will get you better attack and decay in the lows. Also are you sure you have the timing/phasing on the sub right. I mean the sub should not either lead or lag the C1's. For me That wass the hardest part of setting up the sub. Once I had the phase switch set it still took movement/placement of the sub to get the timing right. The B1 has a lot more power than my B3. I might suggest (as a starting point) to set the crossover at 32hz (B1 positions of the crossover) and the gain to about 10 o'clock. Again listen to the timing of the sub.
post #19310 of 21640
The sub location may also be a contributing factor. Have you done the "put the sub at the listening position and crawl around" drill? I found that after that test, my sub was better served in-between my speakers than outside of them.
post #19311 of 21640
I also agree with the others above me. Sub location, crossover frequency and volume took me about 2 weeks to get just right with my focus 110s. I am sure it will take you less time to tweak having 1 sub vs 2 however I noticed certain frequencies were emphasized with improper sub location.
post #19312 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

Well hey guys, I haven't been around this place for quite some time.. guess the C1's have been satisfying my needs for a good while, but yeah.. the 'itch' is starting again I guess, so I read up the posts I've missed. Most names here still look familiar, thats good I guess.. so yeah... the 'itch'..

Lets sum up my gear so far:
iMac > USB >
rDAC > some kind of interlink I forgot the brand/type.. but who cares anyway... >
Roksan Kandy K2 (IA; 190W into 4Ω) > Kimber cables & WBT plugs > C1's
> Stock REL High Level cable > REL B1

All of that in my terrible room that is something like 11 x 17, left side has windows and also the roof slopes on the left side from the 2 meter (approx 7') to something like more then 3 meters (approx 10') on the right.

Looks something like this (yeah, my room is like a jungle):


I am looking for stuff to upgrade. I am mostly interested in room treatments. I will probably only stay for around 1~2 years in this room, before I move (unless house prices start rising real soon), but I want to use this opportunity to experiment a bit with room treatments. You guys have tips on where to start? My biggest problem is poor bass performance. I have a big peak @ 33Hz and the B1 can't compensate, so I pretty much miss all lows below that point. Also I seem to miss a lot around the 50Hz range.

I am also looking for upgrading my amp, but a bit later, after I've worked on my room. While the Roksan is good for its price (around € 900 iirc), it has a little defect on the right channel, making it slightly weaker then the left channel and on low volumes the right channel sometimes completely disappears. Since the Roksan pretty much beat most amps I auditioned back then till the 2k price range, I will be looking for something above that price range. I listen to all sorts of genres, but also a lot of electronic music, which has high dynamics, and lots of bass, so I am looking for an amp that can easily control the C1's. I am open for all kinds of suggestions. I will then search for dealers that have both C1's and the suggested amps (luckily I live in one of the smallest countries in the world, so there are quite a few large dealers always nearby) and audition them.

Also other possible upgrades are welcome ;-)
Most rooms benefit most from bass treatments. I have had good experience with GiK acoustics.
Something like this would probably help a lot:
http://gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-tri-trap/
They also give you advice about the setup of room treatments.
post #19313 of 21640
I've been meaning to ask you... what are your experiences with soundstage width/depth? I have to admit, I'm too lazy to experiment (will do so one day) with placement, but what I've heard from others so far is that some work with it is worthwhile. I remember one experience with Audience 52s at someone's place. the soundstage was huge, but the electronics weren't anything fancy. the guy told me it took a lot of work placement-wise to make them sound like that wrt sound staging.
post #19314 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

Well hey guys, I haven't been around this place for quite some time.. guess the C1's have been satisfying my needs for a good while, but yeah.. the 'itch' is starting again I guess, so I read up the posts I've missed. Most names here still look familiar, thats good I guess.. so yeah... the 'itch'..

Lets sum up my gear so far:
iMac > USB >
rDAC > some kind of interlink I forgot the brand/type.. but who cares anyway... >
Roksan Kandy K2 (IA; 190W into 4Ω) > Kimber cables & WBT plugs > C1's
> Stock REL High Level cable > REL B1

All of that in my terrible room that is something like 11 x 17, left side has windows and also the roof slopes on the left side from the 2 meter (approx 7') to something like more then 3 meters (approx 10') on the right.

I am looking for stuff to upgrade. I am mostly interested in room treatments. I will probably only stay for around 1~2 years in this room, before I move (unless house prices start rising real soon), but I want to use this opportunity to experiment a bit with room treatments. You guys have tips on where to start? My biggest problem is poor bass perfohave a big peak @ 33Hz and the B1 can't compensate, so I pretty much miss all lows below that pointthat point. Also I seem to miss a lot around the 50Hz range.

I am also looking for upgrading my amp, but a bit later, after I've worked on my room. While the Roksan is good for its price (around € 900 iirc), it has a little defect on the right channel, making it slightly weaker then the left channel and on low volumes the right channel sometimes completely disappears. Since the Roksan pretty much beat most amps I auditioned back then till the 2k price range, I will be looking for something above that price range. I listen to all sorts of genres, but also a lot of electronic music, which has high dynamics, and lots of bass, so I am looking for an amp that can easily control the C1's. I am open for all kinds of suggestions. I will then search for dealers that have both C1's and the suggested amps (luckily I live in one of the smallest countries in the world, so there are quite a few large dealers always nearby) and audition them.

Also other possible upgrades are welcome ;-)

Your peaks you speak of....are they from measurement? I don't know what you mean by "missing" info.

I can't see your entire room in the photo, but as others have mentioned, placement of the subwoofer for optimal performance is critical. The kicker is, it's rarely in the place that looks best. Also, bass traps can make a HUGE difference in the quality and quantity of bass. It's hard to have too much bass trapping in a room, but if you visit Ethan Winer's website (real traps) there are great articles to read that will help you out immensely. Once you have the best location figured out, then you can work with the phase setting of the sub. There are tutorials on line that will help. Setting the phase will help, but not to the degree that placement and treatments will.

For imaging, you really need to try to handle first order reflections, but it will be difficult with that large window to your left. Kiwi had some very good comments. Are you willing to change the orientation of the room?
post #19315 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

First thing I would do is "upgrade" the room setup.

Have you experimented with different speaker position and listening position placements?

And the table between the two speakers like that won't be doing you any favours either.

Good room orientation is the biggest factor in what you hear from a certain set of speakers.

Neglecting this first and most important step is going to create an awful lot of compromises in the additional steps.

Well yeah, I've experimented a lot with positions when I got the C1's two years ago. I've rearranged my room on both long walls (or windows on one side wink.gif ). It improved the size of the soundstage, but in return I got a very boomy bass. So I soon reverted back to the short wall. Toe-ing in did't make it much better. I haven't tried to move them a bit more away from the table. I could try that I guess.
Quote:
I found adding sand to the Stand4 will make all tones a little more pronounced and clearer. Me personally have only the rear leg 3/4 full.

Can I just poor sand in the stand, or are there some special kind of bags for that?
Quote:
Where do you have the sub crossed over? I have C1's with just a Rel B3 and it sounds fine below 30hz (per test frequency cd's). I have my B3 crossed over at 30hz and the gain up at almost 11 o'clock. Switching out the stock Rel cable will get you better attack and decay in the lows. Also are you sure you have the timing/phasing on the sub right. I mean the sub should not either lead or lag the C1's. For me That wass the hardest part of setting up the sub. Once I had the phase switch set it still took movement/placement of the sub to get the timing right. The B1 has a lot more power than my B3. I might suggest (as a starting point) to set the crossover at 32hz (B1 positions of the crossover) and the gain to about 10 o'clock. Again listen to the timing of the sub.
Lets see, it's crossed @ 27Hz and the gain is a little below 9 o'clock, and I feel the bass is already to much on some of the low frequency's. Is any non stock HI level cable okay? or is there a specific one I should get?

I am pretty sure I got the phasing switch on the sub right (I picked the one that was the loudest). The phasing in terms of 'distance from the walls', I am still not very sure about that. I did the best I could by just listening, but it might not be optimal yet. I will see if I can get better results.
Quote:
The sub location may also be a contributing factor. Have you done the "put the sub at the listening position and crawl around" drill? I found that after that test, my sub was better served in-between my speakers than outside of them.
I've moved the sub to each corner of my room (my poor back), but didn't hear much difference. Other then the corners, I don't have much room to place it somewhere else. The B1 is a little to high to fit underneath my desk iirc, so can't put it in the middle. I indeed tried to do the drill, but also couldn't really find a spot that made it any better.
Quote:
Most rooms benefit most from bass treatments. I have had good experience with GiK acoustics.
Something like this would probably help a lot:
http://gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-tri-trap/
They also give you advice about the setup of room treatments.

Thanks for the link. The articles are quite informative.
Quote:
Your peaks you speak of....are they from measurement? I don't know what you mean by "missing" info.
Well, just listening using test tones. the 33Hz tone seemed the loudest in my room. I should add that this is also when I just run the C1's without the sub. What I meant by 'missing' is that all the frequency's below 33Hz are barely audible, from any place in my room. With the B1 specced to reach down to 13Hz, I'd expect to at least hear down to the 27Hz.
Quote:
I can't see your entire room in the photo, but as others have mentioned, placement of the subwoofer for optimal performance is critical. The kicker is, it's rarely in the place that looks best. Also, bass traps can make a HUGE difference in the quality and quantity of bass. It's hard to have too much bass trapping in a room, but if you visit Ethan Winer's website (real traps) there are great articles to read that will help you out immensely. Once you have the best location figured out, then you can work with the phase setting of the sub. There are tutorials on line that will help. Setting the phase will help, but not to the degree that placement and treatments will.

For imaging, you really need to try to handle first order reflections, but it will be difficult with that large window to your left. Kiwi had some very good comments. Are you willing to change the orientation of the room?

As I just said, the bad bass performance is also there with just my C1's. I've tried switching my room to both long walls. It made the soundstage larger, but the bass got very 'boomy', so I switched back. On the other long wall I have closets and a door, so not much room to handle reflexions. By switching the room orientation again, I could fix the first order reflexions, but the rear wall reflexion would be a lot worse and untreatable. Sadly I will have to do with the bedroom/audio room combination for a while. I will pay a visit to the Real Traps website. I will try looking into corner traps and bass traps on rear wall / behind the speaker.


Anyway thanks for all the tips guys! I will surely try to fiddle with the speaker position and B1 configuration a bit more, but I won't have high hopes of it solving my problems.
post #19316 of 21640
Well, people generally have problems hearing frequencies below 30Hz smile.gif
post #19317 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

Well, just listening using test tones. the 33Hz tone seemed the loudest in my room. I should add that this is also when I just run the C1's without the sub. What I meant by 'missing' is that all the frequency's below 33Hz are barely audible, from any place in my room. With the B1 specced to reach down to 13Hz, I'd expect to at least hear down to the 27Hz.

Are you using real measurements or just your ears? If the latter, I don't know many if anybody that can accurately do that and by purchasing at least a db meter it will help a lot with this task.

Getting a sub integrated can be a challenge but well worth the time and effort once you get it right.
post #19318 of 21640
Quote:
Can I just poor sand in the stand, or are there some special kind of bags for that?
You can do that only in the front tubes without bags. The back tube is set up for possibly running a speaker cable through it. So you would have to have bags for that. Both pairs of stand4's I have had came with bags just for that. CAUTION::::::: To fill the stands it is ideal to use the insert that the C1's were packed in and put the speaker in that (upside down of course). Remove the bottom plate and add the filler you want to use. But make sure you get no filler on the tweeter. I leave the grills on and then wrap the speaker in an old sheet. Also make sure your filler is very dry. It's very difficult to get off the tweeter (been there done that with the original C1's)
Quote:
Lets see, it's crossed @ 27Hz and the gain is a little below 9 o'clock, and I feel the bass is already to much on some of the low frequency's. Is any non stock HI level cable okay? or is there a specific one I should get?

I am pretty sure I got the phasing switch on the sub right (I picked the one that was the loudest). The phasing in terms of 'distance from the walls', I am still not very sure about that. I did the best I could by just listening, but it might not be optimal yet. I will see if I can get better results.
Sounds like the crossover and gain is set at a good starting point. Really sounds as if you need bass traps. As far as phasing/timing you have to really listen close and listen for the sub lagging or leading the C1's. The switch only gets you in the ballpark!!! Physically moving the sub closer or farther is the final touch. Stop using test tones in my opinion. I set everything for a very flat response using test tones and honestly to me it was horrible only when I played any music. I used my ears from that point forward. I'm very happy with the sound. When I doubt my sub settings I find a cd with super low notes and play it with and without the sub. But that varies from recording to recording. Try and find a happy balance. As far as the B1 spec 13hz is at @ -6db. My B3 is 18hz @ -6db. As a rule of thumb every 3db doubles the loudness.

Again these are just things to try at a minimal cost if any. Oh and again as far as the Rel cable. It aluminum wire. Not very good as a conductor (OK the dyn's use aluminum wire in the voice coil but it done for weight to give the speed the dyn driver have). I use a Nordost baseline made to Rel spec and the difference was all in the attack and decay. Honestly it may be easier to listen to the timing with an upgraded cable. Almost any copper cable will sound better. Here is a link from Agon and I am Xti16 regarding my and a couple of others opinions.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1367106194&&&/Which-REL-sub-R528-or-B2
Edited by OctaDyn_Dude - 5/15/13 at 4:39am
post #19319 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

Well hey guys, I haven't been around this place for quite some time.. guess the C1's have been satisfying my needs for a good while, but yeah.. the 'itch' is starting again I guess, so I read up the posts I've missed. Most names here still look familiar, thats good I guess.. so yeah... the 'itch'..

Lets sum up my gear so far:
iMac > USB >
rDAC > some kind of interlink I forgot the brand/type.. but who cares anyway... >
Roksan Kandy K2 (IA; 190W into 4Ω) > Kimber cables & WBT plugs > C1's
> Stock REL High Level cable > REL B1

All of that in my terrible room that is something like 11 x 17, left side has windows and also the roof slopes on the left side from the 2 meter (approx 7') to something like more then 3 meters (approx 10') on the right.

Looks something like this (yeah, my room is like a jungle):


I am looking for stuff to upgrade. I am mostly interested in room treatments. I will probably only stay for around 1~2 years in this room, before I move (unless house prices start rising real soon), but I want to use this opportunity to experiment a bit with room treatments. You guys have tips on where to start? My biggest problem is poor bass performance. I have a big peak @ 33Hz and the B1 can't compensate, so I pretty much miss all lows below that point. Also I seem to miss a lot around the 50Hz range.

I am also looking for upgrading my amp, but a bit later, after I've worked on my room. While the Roksan is good for its price (around € 900 iirc), it has a little defect on the right channel, making it slightly weaker then the left channel and on low volumes the right channel sometimes completely disappears. Since the Roksan pretty much beat most amps I auditioned back then till the 2k price range, I will be looking for something above that price range. I listen to all sorts of genres, but also a lot of electronic music, which has high dynamics, and lots of bass, so I am looking for an amp that can easily control the C1's. I am open for all kinds of suggestions. I will then search for dealers that have both C1's and the suggested amps (luckily I live in one of the smallest countries in the world, so there are quite a few large dealers always nearby) and audition them.

Also other possible upgrades are welcome ;-)

My 2 cents... First, I think the kandy is a killer amp for the money but I'd be looking for a used plinius 9200, bryston b100 or b135, or maybe try my amp the NAD m2.

As for the bass problem, why not try a sub with built in EQ room correction. The velodyne DD series is very well respected. Comes with a good mic and software to adjust for your room.

The room treatments are really a crap shoot IMO. Other than the obvious first reflection points, treating a room for acoustics is way too complicated and few people really know how to do it. I'd say don't waste your time or money on it. Especially since you are planning to move in the future.
post #19320 of 21640
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxwired View Post

My 2 cents... First, I think the kandy is a killer amp for the money but I'd be looking for a used plinius 9200, bryston b100 or b135, or maybe try my amp the NAD m2.

As for the bass problem, why not try a sub with built in EQ room correction. The velodyne DD series is very well respected. Comes with a good mic and software to adjust for your roomThe room treatments are really a crap shoot IMO. Other than the obvious first reflection points, treating a room for acoustics is way too complicated and few people really know how to do it. I'd say don't waste your time or money on it. Especially since you are planning to move in the future.
uote]

I have to disagree. Bass trapping, specifically, is fairly easy to pull off. When you start getting into time-delay, comb-filtering, then, yes, acoustics is definitely a science that requires a lot of research. Realistically, taking care of primary reflection points and bass trapping will, by far, improve a system much more than changing amplifiers, preamps, etc.

You don't have to go "whole hog" to make a big improvement. For bass trapping, more is better. If you want a quick and easy way to figure out where to put the panels.....put them in every corner of the room. Simply by doing that, you will improve the bass performance. The bass will become very "tight" and detailed. The bass guitar will easily be heard separately from all other instruments. The biggest shock to me after treating my room (and I have more to go) was that the bass became louder. So, I had to turn down the gain. Plus, acoustic treatments can be taken with you when you move...they are lightweight and easily portable depending on how you build them.

Until you take care of the room and the setup, I wouldn't spend a dime on amplifiers, etc., as you will be thowing money away.
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