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Dynaudio Owner's Thread - Page 645

post #19321 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

I've moved the sub to each corner of my room (my poor back), but didn't hear much difference. Other then the corners, I don't have much room to place it somewhere else. The B1 is a little to high to fit underneath my desk iirc, so can't put it in the middle. I indeed tried to do the drill, but also couldn't really find a spot that made it any better.

It's a shame you can't locate the sub somewhere down the middle of a wall length. The last two rooms I set up, the subs gave a flatter response in the middle of a wall length. In the corners they just gave a large peak. That was with a one sub setup and a two sub setup.

I find this a good program to experiment with different placement options to get a rough idea before you start moving things around...

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

Enter in your room dimensions and other details of your room and select speakers and subs of a similar size and configuration as your own.

And from your pic, it looks like that chair is awfully close to the front of your left speaker..!

I tend to agree with jamhead above - until you sort out major room issues, worrying about different amps or cables is somewhat pointless. Those room issues sorted out will make a huge difference by itself.
post #19322 of 21661
Quote:
Are you using real measurements or just your ears? If the latter, I don't know many if anybody that can accurately do that and by purchasing at least a db meter it will help a lot with this task.

Getting a sub integrated can be a challenge but well worth the time and effort once you get it right.

Just my ears. I am interested in looking for some microphone/software combination that can give me more info about the frequency response in certain places in my room.
Quote:
Sounds like the crossover and gain is set at a good starting point. Really sounds as if you need bass traps. As far as phasing/timing you have to really listen close and listen for the sub lagging or leading the C1's. The switch only gets you in the ballpark!!! Physically moving the sub closer or farther is the final touch. Stop using test tones in my opinion. I set everything for a very flat response using test tones and honestly to me it was horrible only when I played any music. I used my ears from that point forward. I'm very happy with the sound. When I doubt my sub settings I find a cd with super low notes and play it with and without the sub. But that varies from recording to recording. Try and find a happy balance. As far as the B1 spec 13hz is at @ -6db. My B3 is 18hz @ -6db. As a rule of thumb every 3db doubles the loudness.

Today I've been fiddling with the settings of my B1. Trying different crossover points and gain settings, but eventually reverted back yo the 27Hz cross and 9 o clock gain, cause on other settings I was able to localize the sub location because of the boomyness of some frequency's @ my listening position on the couch. I've also tried moving the sub within the space I have left in my right corner, but it didn't make much of an audible difference from the couch. Moving the sub from the sidewall a few inches did improve the soundstage from my listening position behind my desk, so I kept it like that for now. As long as I don't have any real measurements, I will keep it like this.

I'd have to note that the bad bass response is also there with the B1 turned off, which is why I think my bass problems are caused by my room, rather then my sub integration. The problems are a lot less when I listen to music behind my desk. From my listening position on my couch, it's almost like the bass guitar just disappears when some notes are played, it's that bad. I am not just talking about bass frequency's below the 30Hz (the part my B1 should add), but also bass frequency's above it. I know because I do hear them in other parts of my room.

I should add that my couch is a little over the middle of my room. I want it as my listening position because it has the right distance from the speakers.
Quote:
Again these are just things to try at a minimal cost if any. Oh and again as far as the Rel cable. It aluminum wire. Not very good as a conductor (OK the dyn's use aluminum wire in the voice coil but it done for weight to give the speed the dyn driver have). I use a Nordost baseline made to Rel spec and the difference was all in the attack and decay. Honestly it may be easier to listen to the timing with an upgraded cable. Almost any copper cable will sound better. Here is a link from Agon and I am Xti16 regarding my and a couple of others opinions.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1367106194&&&/Which-REL-sub-R528-or-B2

Thanks. I am not much of a cable guy, so I just ordered a cheap one from Signal Cable. I will report back when it arrives biggrin.gif
Quote:
My 2 cents... First, I think the kandy is a killer amp for the money but I'd be looking for a used plinius 9200, bryston b100 or b135, or maybe try my amp the NAD m2.

Thanks, I will put them to my list.
Quote:
I have to disagree. Bass trapping, specifically, is fairly easy to pull off. When you start getting into time-delay, comb-filtering, then, yes, acoustics is definitely a science that requires a lot of research. Realistically, taking care of primary reflection points and bass trapping will, by far, improve a system much more than changing amplifiers, preamps, etc.

You don't have to go "whole hog" to make a big improvement. For bass trapping, more is better. If you want a quick and easy way to figure out where to put the panels.....put them in every corner of the room. Simply by doing that, you will improve the bass performance. The bass will become very "tight" and detailed. The bass guitar will easily be heard separately from all other instruments. The biggest shock to me after treating my room (and I have more to go) was that the bass became louder. So, I had to turn down the gain. Plus, acoustic treatments can be taken with you when you move...they are lightweight and easily portable depending on how you build them.

Until you take care of the room and the setup, I wouldn't spend a dime on amplifiers, etc., as you will be thowing money away.

Well, that is pretty much my idea. The room makes a lot of difference. I have a mere REL Quake (100W) in the HT room, which is bigger then my room, and it's LF response is far better then my B1 in my room from the listening position. Sure, my B1 can get louder, but it sounds like a mess, and my neighbors won't like me tongue.gif

I am not touching my amp until I have fixed my room. The Kandy is a great amp that I could live with a lot longer if wasn't for the defect in the right channel, that makes the sound stage get shifted slightly to the left. I correct this by moving the right speaker further forward, but it's not really the most optimal solution. I will probably keep the Kandy for an eventual other setup if I move to a place where I have multiple rooms.
Quote:
It's a shame you can't locate the sub somewhere down the middle of a wall length. The last two rooms I set up, the subs gave a flatter response in the middle of a wall length. In the corners they just gave a large peak. That was with a one sub setup and a two sub setup.

I find this a good program to experiment with different placement options to get a rough idea before you start moving things around...

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

Enter in your room dimensions and other details of your room and select speakers and subs of a similar size and configuration as your own.

And from your pic, it looks like that chair is awfully close to the front of your left speaker..!

I tend to agree with jamhead above - until you sort out major room issues, worrying about different amps or cables is somewhat pointless. Those room issues sorted out will make a huge difference by itself.

Thanks for the link. I will look into it.

I already moved the chair further back, just in case, but I only have the chair for a month, so it's not messing with the bass wink.gif

And I agree. I first plan to fix the room, before getting into a new amp.
post #19323 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

I should add that my couch is a little over the middle of my room. I want it as my listening position because it has the right distance from the speakers.

That's probably a major factor in your problem right there. The middle of the room is usually the worst place for good bass response. A LP at either 1/3 from the back of the room or 1/3 from the front of the room works better. If it was me, I would move the couch forward and toe in the speakers a bit.
post #19324 of 21661
Hi everyone,

I'm having a bit of a problem with my Dyns (well, if you search the archives for my posts on this thread, you'll see that I have been having lots of problems). I need an esotar 2 tweeter replacement for a Contour SCX and 2 esotec tweeter replacements for old vinyl laminate Audience 52s. For reasons I'd really rather not go into, I don't want to use the local distributor/dealer from who I purchased them (Australia). Also, due to all the previous hassles and the years(!) long wait(!) for replacement drivers to arrive(!), they are all out of warranty. Does anyone know where I can get cheap replacements? I saw a cheap esotar 2 advertised on audiogon, but it was intended for a Confidence C2, so I suspect it has an 8 ohm nominal impedance due to the C2s dual tweeter array?

Also, is there a centre channel stand for the Contour SCX that can stand freely off the floor a bit?

Thanks.
post #19325 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

That's probably a major factor in your problem right there. The middle of the room is usually the worst place for good bass response. A LP at either 1/3 from the back of the room or 1/3 from the front of the room works better. If it was me, I would move the couch forward and toe in the speakers a bit.

I just read the same on the real traps page about the so called 38% rule. I could't move forward, but I was able to move backward and it make a huge difference indeed from the couch listening position. The only bad part of it, is that I now have to think of how to design my room with my whole desk and speakers that had to move forward as well (to keep some sort of triangle).. rolleyes.gif Now I will have to fiddle with the sub again to optimize the response.

I am also still gonna experiment with bass trapping where I can, once I've filled my brains with the right information.
post #19326 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

I just read the same on the real traps page about the so called 38% rule. I could't move forward, but I was able to move backward and it make a huge difference indeed from the couch listening position. The only bad part of it, is that I now have to think of how to design my room with my whole desk and speakers that had to move forward as well (to keep some sort of triangle).. rolleyes.gif Now I will have to fiddle with the sub again to optimize the response.

I am also still gonna experiment with bass trapping where I can, once I've filled my brains with the right information.

Good.

Every room is different, but try a 1.2 ratio with your Dyns. and seating position. So, if your Dyns are 2m apart, try sitting back around 2.5m from them (for example). Also, try toe-ing in your speakers a little, so that the left tweeter is hitting your left shoulder and the right one hitting your right shoulder and see how that affects imaging.

Also, if I were you, I would consider raising your crossover to 60hz or so. The C1's can play lower, but if you can remove some of the bass from them and apply it to your sub, it may help the mid-range on your speakers.

Good luck and don't get frustrated....hopefully the improvement will continue to be substantial.
post #19327 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamhead View Post


Also, if I were you, I would consider raising your crossover to 60hz or so. The C1's can play lower, but if you can remove some of the bass from them and apply it to your sub, it may help the mid-range on your speakers.

Good luck and don't get frustrated....hopefully the improvement will continue to be substantial.
I believe Mr Q is using the High level input on the Rel. Raising the crossover point will only add to the C1's bass. eek.gif
post #19328 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

I believe Mr Q is using the High level input on the Rel. Raising the crossover point will only add to the C1's bass. eek.gif

I was thinking the exact same thing. Without bass management of the C1s raising the crossover point on the high level input of the REL will not only add to the bass, but will just kill the detail and refinement of the midrange. On my REL-T7 and S3.4s just going from 30 Hz to 35 Hz crossover has a detrimental effect on the midrange.
post #19329 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

I was thinking the exact same thing. Without bass management of the C1s raising the crossover point on the high level input of the REL will not only add to the bass, but will just kill the detail and refinement of the midrange. On my REL-T7 and S3.4s just going from 30 Hz to 35 Hz crossover has a detrimental effect on the midrange.
Can you imagine the mid bass gain. It would drown out any thing under 40hz with the C1's. eek.gif Now an external crossover would be a different story. biggrin.gif
post #19330 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Can you imagine the mid bass gain. It would drown out any thing under 40hz with the C1's. eek.gifNow an external crossover would be a different story. biggrin.gif
Ahh...but that would be a different system, effectively giving you bass management.
post #19331 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post

Ahh...but that would be a different system, effectively giving you bass management.
Yep it sure would
post #19332 of 21661
Evidence Platinum at the Munich Show:



post #19333 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

OK the dyn's use aluminum wire in the voice coil but it done for weight to give the speed the dyn driver have
Dynaudio doesn't use aluminum wire for the voice coils but copper.
the voice coil former is made of aluminum in some models.
post #19334 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

Dynaudio doesn't use aluminum wire for the voice coils but copper.
the voice coil former is made of aluminum in some models.
From Dynaudios website
Confidence C1 II and C1 Signature


The most refined and best sounding Confidence C1 ever

The Confidence C1 delivers a level of musical performance and sonic refinement that is unequalled by any other loudspeaker in its class.
The distinctive slim cabinet incorporates the advanced Esotar² tweeter, a mid/bass driver with aluminium voice coil on a Kapton former, plus the highest quality 1st order cross-over.

The C1 can be mounted directly onto the Stand4 for a synergy of performance and design. With the latest fine-tuning, the new Confidence C1 II and C1 Signature is the best sounding and most refined compact Confidence ever.

The Confidence Signature project was inspired by Dynaudio's founder Wilfried Ehrenholz.
He has always had the ambition of one day making the best even better.

Itself a perfect example of Dynaudio’s tradition of producing incredible compact speakers, the C1 II serves as an ideal building-block for any high-end music or home theater system.
http://www.dynaudio.com/int/home_loudspeaker_systems/confidence/confidence_c1.php
post #19335 of 21661
well, that's what they say.
but... someone managed to burn an expensive Dyna woofer. we took it a apart and there it was: a copper coil on an aluminum former. I can swear that the specific model is advertised by Dyna as having a "pure aluminum voice coil". have no idea why I didn't take pics but as far as a testimony from a complete stranger of unknown credentials (that's me) goes, there you have it.

some other models (cheaper ones) have Kapton formers, have no idea about the coils though, I didn't take them apart just out of curiosity smile.gif

one other thing, not necessarily related and it doesn't prove anything. Morel (Israel) advertises their drivers as having aluminum coils too. I burned a Morel woofer once myself and took it apart and there it was again: copper.

it's not unheard of that some manufacturers conveniently 'forget' to update spec sheets, happened many times smile.gif
Edited by gn77b - 5/18/13 at 4:30am
post #19336 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

well, that's what they say.
but... someone managed to burn an expensive woofer in one of their very expensive models. we took it a apart and there it was: a copper coil on an aluminum former. some other models (cheaper ones) have Kapton formers, have no idea about the coils though, I didn't take them apart just out of curiosity smile.gif
one other thing, not necessarily related and it doesn't prove anything. Morel advertizes their drivers as having aluminum coils too. I burned a Morel woofer once myself and took it apart and there it was again: copper.

it's not unheard of that some manufacturers conveniently 'forget' to update spec sheets, happened many times smile.gif
Besides the website my dealer told me the same thing. But like I had stated the reason they use aluminum is to keep the weight of the coil itself to a minimum which equates to speed. Personally I couldn't believe they would use such a poor conductor for a coil but considering the weight it can make sense. I'll e-mail Mick and see if I can get him to respond wink.gif
post #19337 of 21661
They just need to start using 24k gold. Bling on the outside, and bling on the inside.
post #19338 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctaDyn_Dude View Post

Besides the website my dealer told me the same thing. But like I had stated the reason they use aluminum is to keep the weight of the coil itself to a minimum which equates to speed. Personally I couldn't believe they would use such a poor conductor for a coil but considering the weight it can make sense. I'll e-mail Mick and see if I can get him to respond wink.gif

Aluminum is actually a good conductor.
post #19339 of 21661
Can you all comment on these two options:

NAIM SuperNait + cheaper DAC (Say < $1000) or perhaps NO DAC at all. (All depends how expensive the SN costs on the used market.)

vs.

NAIM Nait XS2 + nicer DAC (Say < $1500 like the Eastern Electric Minimax DAC Plus)


Can anyone on the sonic differences of the XS2 vs. SN when powering the Excite X16 or Focus 160 in a 2.0 setup?
post #19340 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by amatuerholic View Post

They just need to start using 24k gold. Bling on the outside, and bling on the inside.

My phono cartridge has 24 ct gold coil windings. smile.gif
post #19341 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post

Can you all comment on these two options:

NAIM SuperNait + cheaper DAC (Say < $1000) or perhaps NO DAC at all. (All depends how expensive the SN costs on the used market.)

vs.

NAIM Nait XS2 + nicer DAC (Say < $1500 like the Eastern Electric Minimax DAC Plus)


Can anyone on the sonic differences of the XS2 vs. SN when powering the Excite X16 or Focus 160 in a 2.0 setup?

If you get a SuperNAIT, it has a DAC built in. I don't think you'll really improve on it at <$1K. People who buy the SN tend to upgrade the DAC with something on the level of the Naim DAC. I haven't heard a SN, but it does have a more powerful amp section than the XS. Offhand, my guess is the SN should sound better, but it's nearly double the price at retail.

Nevertheless, a NAiT XS with an external DAC will sound great and is more than up to the task of driving the Focus 160 or comparable.
post #19342 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post

Can you all comment on these two options:

NAIM SuperNait + cheaper DAC (Say < $1000) or perhaps NO DAC at all. (All depends how expensive the SN costs on the used market.)

vs.

NAIM Nait XS2 + nicer DAC (Say < $1500 like the Eastern Electric Minimax DAC Plus)


Can anyone on the sonic differences of the XS2 vs. SN when powering the Excite X16 or Focus 160 in a 2.0 setup?

this is my opinion.

go for the SN, that way you will have enough power to power just about anything in the future. the 5i-2 is powering my 160s ok, but I can tell that the 5i tends to get pushed around sometimes. the XS2 should do better, but if confidence C1s ever somehow make their way to you, you wont have to upgrade the amp again. as for a dac, id first see how you like the dac on the SN first before buying an external dac.
post #19343 of 21661
^^^ I guess I'll dissent (what else is new, right?); I would go XS-2 and an external DAC.

I'm on record, as wanting an external DAC; I can upgrade, and A/B as need be. And as far as the upgrade in power you get...with the much more expensive SuperNait, over XS-2; you're still only talking about 80 over 60. I get that these "Naim watts" sound somewhat more stout than other watts; but only within reason guys. I still can't argue, that the 80wpc SuperNait...somehow pumps out more than your decent 150/200wpc unit.

My point being; get the "better" DAC, and XS-2; and if that's not "powerful" enough for you...there are always other brands. Just my take.
post #19344 of 21661
For anyone, who might have had first-hand knowledge of all 3; can I get thoughts...comparing/contrasting Contour 1.3, 1.3 mkII, 1.3 SE?
post #19345 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

^^^ I guess I'll dissent (what else is new, right?); I would go XS-2 and an external DAC.

I'm on record, as wanting an external DAC; I can upgrade, and A/B as need be. And as far as the upgrade in power you get...with the much more expensive SuperNait, over XS-2; you're still only talking about 80 over 60. I get that these "Naim watts" sound somewhat more stout than other watts; but only within reason guys. I still can't argue, that the 80wpc SuperNait...somehow pumps out more than your decent 150/200wpc unit.

My point being; get the "better" DAC, and XS-2; and if that's not "powerful" enough for you...there are always other brands. Just my take.

ok, so Ill go on record that I have been thinking and discussing with you, other brands. However Naim is still in the mix for me. That doesnt mean that I wont consider any other brands, cause as you know, other brands are high up on my list right now too. McCormack and Bel Canto being a couple of them. But as I told you, the 5i imo was better then the Rogue Cronus Magnum, Anthem 225, Rega Brio, and a few others. Be it bass reproduction and slam, musical timing and flow Naim does some very good things all together that are rare to find in other products. IDK what or how Naim generates their power, but they do it well with less power and relatively small housings. Bel Canto, T+A, AR are some of my favorites, but so is Naim... however I am really intrigued by Belle amps, McCormack, Odyssey, Cary and many other products, so Im not stuck on Naim.


An external DAC would be nice if GT wants to go with other brands down the road.
post #19346 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

ok, so Ill go on record that I have been thinking and discussing with you, other brands. However Naim is still in the mix for me. That doesnt mean that I wont consider any other brands, cause as you know, other brands are high up on my list right now too. McCormack and Bel Canto being a couple of them. But as I told you, the 5i imo was better then the Rogue Cronus Magnum, Anthem 225, Rega Brio, and a few others. Be it bass reproduction and slam, musical timing and flow Naim does some very good things all together that are rare to find in other products. IDK what or how Naim generates their power, but they do it well with less power and relatively small housings. Bel Canto, T+A, AR are some of my favorites, but so is Naim... however I am really intrigued by Belle amps, McCormack, Odyssey, Cary and many other products, so Im not stuck on Naim.


An external DAC would be nice if GT wants to go with other brands down the road.

It's all good Callas. I know there are Naim fans in the thread; so I'm not trying to discount their performance. And I know from talking to you privately, you've heard as much gear...as anyone I've ever talked to; so while all I can do is offer my opinion...I completely trust you have your finger on the pulse of what best suits you. Now, that being said...when it comes specifically to bass reproduction and slam; I've tried quite a few amps myself, and I personally have never heard an amp touch the McCormack DNA-225 I had...in those areas. So my point, with regard to the SuperNait...is while I'm sure it's a fine unit; I prefer the XS-2 and better DAC choice, for several reasons.

1. I don't like built-in DACs. I've stated the reasons why, and I don't believe in "good-enough". I like to occasionally put my gear to the test, by A/B-ing it against other comers.
2. I'm always for spending less, to get to a point where you're happy; if you can.
3. If the XS-2 doesn't offer enough power and slam; but the SuperNait does...I still say there are less-expensive ways to get there. I'm not putting Naim down; but I will state, unequivocally...that I think a McCormack DNA-225 (just for example), absolutely murders a SuperNait, with regard to bass and slam. While I'm willing to allow, the 80wpc SuperNait punches above its weight; the sheer numbers of the Mickie-C are staggering (262 into 8, 430 into 4, 795 into 2 with "headroom" numbers of 303 into 8, 575 into 4, 1018 into 2, and 1532 into 1ohm bursts. And this is as measured, by John Atkinson...who's not really prone to hyperbole, when it comes to specs). Forget all that; I had this amp, with my C1 Sigs...and nothing kicked you in the chest, like this amp! Now...does the SuperNait, walk a more balanced line; offering "really good" slam, more PRaT, and "musicality" than the DNA-225 (and suitable pre-amp)...that's the question. My point is only...if you're gonna love, and spend $3500-5k for the SuperNait; I'd do it for reasons other than the slam. There are less expensive ways to get that, and more IMO.
4. I don't like built-in DACs wink.gif

Also...we are talking about 2 different situations; you and GTA. And for the record...I didn't try to talk him off the Naim; just the preference for the XS-2 and external DAC combo.
post #19347 of 21661
Thanks for the feedback!

I am seeing the Naim SuperNait as being closer to $3K on the USED market and the NS2 being closer to $1,800-2,000 on the USED market.

Assuming I have max $3K to invest in a new integrated+DAC combo, which to choose? Either I max out on the SN or get an NS2 and spend $1K-1,200 on an external DAC.
post #19348 of 21661
Of course investing in the SuperNait as my only DAC also brings up the question of USB vs. SPDIF as the transfer method from say a music server.

The SN does not accept USB as a digital input.

I have read arguments for either standard. Some say USB is more versatile for the future (DSD) while SPDIF is more reliable and may even sound better.
post #19349 of 21661
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTaudiophile View Post

Of course investing in the SuperNait as my only DAC also brings up the question of USB vs. SPDIF as the transfer method from say a music server.

The SN does not accept USB as a digital input.

I have read arguments for either standard. Some say USB is more versatile for the future (DSD) while SPDIF is more reliable and may even sound better.

I would go to the Naim forums and see what is said about it there.
post #19350 of 21661
GTA/Callas...any updates?
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