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Sell Magnepan 3.6R's and buy NHT Xd? - Page 3  

post #61 of 179
[quote=Alimentall]Perhaps, but even so, when you flatten the response, you still end up with a close to 10dB peak at 47Hz and a wide, deep trough of a good -5dB or so in the upper midrange/lower treble, just like every other Maggie I've ever heard! And the response is still rather erratic. Note that Linkwitz's dipole speakers use a SEAS Excel magnesium driver, just as Xd does. But then you know that, eh Mac? Sorry, I mean Zissou. John you are remarkably adept at showing a complete lack of understanding of all things acoustic. You really, really need to get off the NHT obsession. I realize it's all you carry but try to broaden your horizons and then you won't need to reregister under another pseudonym.
I see you're being slaughtered again on Asylum. Doesn't it ever get tiresome for you? :D
post #62 of 179
This had gotten way off base.

The OP asked about the NHT speakers,keeping in mind that he currently owns Magnepans.Panel speakers are a very different animal,measurements,listening requirments,and power are vastly different from box speakers,any box speaker.

Magnepans,NHT's,will suit some people but not all.NO speaker is perfect.

The point where I was "Rubbed the wrong way",was when it became a "Maggies are a speaker people take a fling with ,then move on".The same can be said about any speaker brand,particularly in todays upgraditis era.

Magnepans,NHT's,Martin Logans,Kef's,Wilson's and any other number of speakers are a thing of wonder.They each have their merits,but to say that Blank brand sucks and blank brand is so much better,is just pure hogwash.
It is the perfect way to rile someone up to post a nasty response,ergo,most of the posts in this thread.

O,BTW,I've heard a full 7.1 HT with NHt speakers and I own a full Maggie HT.I like them both,although they are very different.
post #63 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
I realize it's all you carry
You mean, besides PSB? Or all the brands that I've carried that NHT ended kicked to the curb within a year or so?
Quote:

but try to broaden your horizons
Mac/Zissou, I've personally sold more than 25 different brands of speakers and I've traded in more speakers than you'll ever hear in your lifetime.
Quote:

and then you won't need to reregister under another pseudonym.
You mean like Zissou? :rolleyes:
Quote:

I see you're being slaughtered again on Asylum. Doesn't it ever get tiresome for you? :D
Uh, yeah, it's like a war zone over there. About what the hell are you speaking? :confused:

Didn't you once say that Magnepans were okay, but you couldn't live with them because they lacked dynamics?!? I mean, really, it's one thing to have a strong opinions, but you waffle more than Michael Moore at Denny's, then act like you always believed that. Your problem isn't your pseudonym, it's that you're completely full of crap and just want to cause trouble rather than helping.
post #64 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzin
This had gotten way off base.

The OP asked about the NHT speakers,keeping in mind that he currently owns Magnepans.Panel speakers are a very different animal,measurements,listening requirments,and power are vastly different from box speakers,any box speaker.

Magnepans,NHT's,will suit some people but not all.NO speaker is perfect.

The point where I was "Rubbed the wrong way",was when it became a "Maggies are a speaker people take a fling with ,then move on".The same can be said about any speaker brand,particularly in todays upgraditis era.

Magnepans,NHT's,Martin Logans,Kef's,Wilson's and any other number of speakers are a thing of wonder.They each have their merits,but to say that Blank brand sucks and blank brand is so much better,is just pure hogwash.
It is the perfect way to rile someone up to post a nasty response,ergo,most of the posts in this thread.

O,BTW,I've heard a full 7.1 HT with NHt speakers and I own a full Maggie HT.I like them both,although they are very different.
Funny the doc mentioned that as Magnepan has the highest brand loyalty of any high end speaker. Yet another case of Ashman making up tales to suit his needs. :eek:
post #65 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
You mean, besides PSB? Or all the brands that I've carried that NHT ended kicked to the curb within a year or so?

Mac/Zissou, I've personally sold more than 25 different brands of speakers and I've traded in more speakers than you'll ever hear in your lifetime.

You mean like Zissou? :rolleyes:

Uh, yeah, it's like a war zone over there. About what the hell are you speaking? :confused:

Didn't you once say that Magnepans were okay, but you couldn't live with them because they lacked dynamics?!? I mean, really, it's one thing to have a strong opinions, but you waffle more than Michael Moore at Denny's, then act like you always believed that. Your problem isn't your pseudonym, it's that you're completely full of crap and just want to cause trouble rather than helping.
Who the hell is Mac? Everyone slaughters you on the Asylum because you're biased, closed minded and lacking knowledge. As for hearing more speakers that is HIGHLY doubtful and no matter what you've heard apparently proper sound reproduction hasn't sunk in. As for PSB I'm going to give them a call and get the skinny on that.
post #66 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
Magnepan has the highest brand loyalty of any high end speaker.
That's because, if you like their sound over dynamic speakers, then there's no real great options for you. Like dipole ribbons? You pretty much are going to own Maggies. But if you like dynamic speakers, you have 200+ brands from which to choose that all have a surprisingly similar presentation. And if 50% of Maggie owners buy another set, and 50% don't, that's a high rate of people loving them *and* a high rate of people that say "the sound is not for me".
post #67 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
Who the hell is Mac?
A very small penis with a bad attitude :D
Quote:

Everyone slaughters you on the Asylum because you're biased, closed minded and lacking knowledge. As for hearing more speakers that is HIGHLY doubtful and no matter what you've heard apparently proper sound reproduction hasn't sunk in.
:rolleyes:
Quote:

As for PSB I'm going to give them a call and get the skinny on that.
Go for it. I just ordered Platinum T8s for a customer. In cherry. FWIW. Not that it's any of your business. 1-800-263-4641. Great company.
post #68 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzin
The point where I was "Rubbed the wrong way",was when it became a "Maggies are a speaker people take a fling with ,then move on".The same can be said about any speaker brand,particularly in todays upgraditis era.
Sorry, what I really meant was that Maggies are speaker with whom a *many* people have a fling and move on. And many others wouldn't give up for anything. Like I said, I would probably consider carrying them for diversity's sake, except that home theater and the fascination with ever smaller speakers makes them hard to sell and my trade-ins generally take care of the demand. I used to carry Genesis and they measured badly too, but still managed to sound great *if* you had the right room and setup.
post #69 of 179
"That's because, if you like their sound over dynamic speakers, then there's no real great options for you. Like dipole ribbons? You pretty much are going to own Maggies."

Thats absolute hogwash.As I said before,take a look at the audio review forum.There are many many companies (not garage builders) making this type of speaker.

"Sorry, what I really meant was that Maggies are speaker with whom a *many* people have a fling and move on. And many others wouldn't give up for anything. Like I said, I would probably consider carrying them for diversity's sake, except that home theater and the fascination with ever smaller speakers makes them hard to sell and my trade-ins generally take care of the demand. I used to carry Genesis and they measured badly too, but still managed to sound great *if* you had the right room and setup."




That makes much more sense.:) Although the" measured badly too "was uncalled for .
post #70 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzin
Thats absolute hogwash.As I said before,take a look at the audio review forum.There are many many companies (not garage builders) making this type of speaker.
Like...........? I mean, sure, there are a few, but the fact that I have to go to a small forum on the internet to find a group that knows of other brands (and I'm a dealer!) tells you something. They're small companies that have no where near the clout, longevity, dealer base or popularity of Magnepan. In fact, I'd bet that Magnepan is bigger than all other ribbon speaker companies combined. At least those that exclusively build ribbon designs, anyway.
Quote:

I understand your need to push NHT speakers but,spreading disinformation only discredits your opinion.
I'm not pushing NHT, just defending them against total nonsense. That "disinformation" was a) a compliment to Magnepan and b) recognition that there really aren't any other *major* ribbon players of whom 99%+ of the population would have any knowledge.
post #71 of 179
'I'm not pushing NHT, just defending them against total nonsense. That "disinformation" was a) a compliment to Magnepan and b) recognition that there really aren't any other *major* players of whom 99%+ of the population would have any knowledge."

The same can be said of most of the brands talked about on this forum.99% of the population has never heard of brands like Magnerpan,NHT,Kef,Wilson,ML.

If it isnt sold at BB,Circuit city,then most folks have never heard of it :)
post #72 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
Like...........? I mean, sure, there are a few, but the fact that I have to go to a small forum on the internet to find a group that knows of other brands (and I'm a dealer!) tells you something. They're small companies that have no where near the clout, longevity, dealer base or popularity of Magnepan. In fact, I'd bet that Magnepan is bigger than all other ribbon speaker companies combined. At least those that exclusively build ribbon designs, anyway.

I'm not pushing NHT, just defending them against total nonsense. That "disinformation" was a) a compliment to Magnepan and b) recognition that there really aren't any other *major* ribbon players of whom 99%+ of the population would have any knowledge.
Yes as usual you are pimping the brand you sell. Nobody is espousing nonsense. The lack of dynamics in the xD I mentioned was also duly noted by Atkinson. The fact it does not produce a believably scaled soundstage is also fact. Live music does not have pinpoint imaging. You really need to start attending symphonies.
post #73 of 179
"Like...........?"


Apogee,Acoustics,Magnepan,Acoustat,SoundLab,Quad,Audiostatic ,,Perigee,Analysis Audio,Innersound,Alternate A.,Lightning Sound,Transmission Audio,to name a few :)
post #74 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
The lack of dynamics in the xD I mentioned was also duly noted by Atkinson.
And other reviewers can't get over how dynamic they are. Like I said, most people think coloration is "dynamic". Xds have virtually no color and never let you know how loud they're playing because they just don't distort at any sane volume. Ask any NHT owner. They play play about 5dB louder without distortion than many big reference speakers, but do so effortlessly so you don't even recognize the dynamics of the speakers, just that of the music.
Quote:

The fact it does not produce a believably scaled soundstage is also fact. Live music does not have pinpoint imaging. You really need to start attending symphonies.
Well, I'm not a classical guy. I've gone to hear some symphonies (and even played in the high school one), but it's just not my cup of tea. So, I could listen to you (who still hasn't heard or seen Xd anywhere) or I could listen to Mr Clean who plays trumpet for the LA Symphony. He loves his Xds as do his comrades. They replaced $15K dipole speakers :)
post #75 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzin
"Like...........?"
Apogee - DOA
Magnepan - we knew that
Acoustat - electrostatics, not ribbons
SoundLab - electrostatics, not ribbons
Quad - electrostatics, not ribbons
Audiostatic - electrostatics I assume
Perigee - who?!?
Analysis Audio - who?!?
Innersound - electrostatic, not ribbons
Alternate A - ???
Lightning Sound - ??????
Transmission Audio - ???????

I think that proves my point. You do realize that we've been talking about ribbons, right?
post #76 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
And other reviewers can't get over how dynamic they are. Like I said, most people think coloration is "dynamic". Xds have virtually no color and never let you know how loud they're playing because they just don't distort at any sane volume. Ask any NHT owner. They play play about 5dB louder without distortion than many big reference speakers, but do so effortlessly so you don't even recognize the dynamics of the speakers, just that of the music.

Well, I'm not a classical guy. I've gone to hear some symphonies, but it's not my cup of tea. So, I could listen to you (who still hasn't heard or seen Xd anywhere) or I could listen to Mr Clean who plays trumpet for the LA Symphony. He loves his Xds as do his comrades. They replaced $15K dipole speakers :)
No D-Y-N-A-M-I-C-S

JA says:


There was also something I noticed with the toneburst track on my Editor's Choice compilation (CD, Stereophile STPH016-2). This track comprises equal-length tonebursts that move from 32Hz up to 3.2kHz in half steps, then back down again. I created this signal to investigate room and speaker-cabinet resonant problems, but when I played it over the Xd system, I was puzzled to hear what sounded like very faint "ghosts" accompanying the sinewave bursts, almost but not entirely like modulation noise. A puzzle, though I did wonder if this phenomenon had something to do with the veiling I had noticed on music.

I have written before about how the choice of playback equipment can change the choice of music played. The discontinuity between the satellites and subwoofers was more audible with rock music, with its ubiquitous four-in-the-bar kick drum, than it was with classical recordings.


With first one subwoofer, then two, and using the same filter set Kal had used, I couldn't eliminate the upper-bass discontinuity no matter how I experimented with subwoofer positioning. The bass region was rich and deep, but didn't integrate sufficiently well with the satellites. In addition, while midrange tonalities were reproduced with a delightful lack of coloration, there was a somewhat reticent quality to the highest frequencies. Whether or not these problems bothered me was very dependent on the music played.

Repeating this torture test with the 150Hz crossover filters didn't result in any shutdowns with the Clarke solo, and the chord that begins "In the Flesh," from Pink Floyd's Is There Anybody Out There? (The Wall Live) (CD, Columbia C2K 62058), sounded positively cataclysmic. The low-frequency crash of the wall being demolished on this album gave the XdW subwoofers one heck of a workout. However, the drum-and-unvoiced-guitar intro of Eric Johnson's "East Wes," from his live Austin City Limits CD, still managed to shut down the left XdS woofer amplifier if I wasn't careful with the volume control. (Setting the NHT PVC's control to –6dB, equivalent to an in-room SPL of around 108dB, could trigger an amplifier shutdown with this track.)

I listened again to the half-step–spaced tonebursts on Editor's Choice. Despite the revised filters, I could still hear the slight modulation noise accompanying the tonebursts. Probably not too much should be made of this phenomenon; I mention it only because I had never heard it before with conventional loudspeakers.


It's true that the NHT Xd system still lacks ultimate dynamic range, but there's only so much you can ask in terms of ultimate loudness from a pair of drive-units with a radiating diameter of just 3".

Give it up Sybil. No surprise you're not a classical guy and even less surprising now that you clearly haven't a clue about proper sound reproduction.
post #77 of 179
"Perigee - who?!?
Analysis Audio - who?!?
Alternate A - ???
Lightning Sound - ??????
Transmission Audio - ???????"

Ask the general public about NHT(or any other brand mentioned on this forum),they'll give you the same answer,NHT- who?
post #78 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
No D-Y-N-A-M-I-C-S

It's true that the NHT Xd system still lacks ultimate dynamic range, but there's only so much you can ask in terms of ultimate loudness from a pair of drive-units with a radiating diameter of just 3".

Give it up Sybil. No surprise you're not a classical guy and even less surprising now that you clearly haven't a clue about proper sound reproduction.
First of all, he said "ultimate dynamics", which means "it won't play as loud as Klipschorns." Neither will a Magnepan. The Xds are WAY more dynamic than Maggies. And most other speakers. Most expensive high-end speakers have well over 1% and even as much as 5% midrange distortion at 90dB, typically 1W of power. Xds have .2% midrange distortion at 97dB and so they sound *effortless*, which is different than what most audiophiles incorrectly call "dynamic". You'd KNOW that if you'd have HEARD an Xd. The fact that you claim to own them when you most certainly don't wrecks any hint of credibility you have on this issue.

As for "haven't got a clue", then you'll have to also tell that to Mr Clean and my customer from Thursday who bought TWO pairs of Xd and is a professional conductor and musician and his wife is a musician. And I played percussion in my high school orchestra and in regionals. So while I don't *love* classical music, I know it very well and know what live sounds like. And Xd is one of the most lifelike speakers I've ever heard. You should actually try listening to one some time instead of pretending to own a speaker you think you hate.

Anyone else here think it's funny Mac, errrr Zissou, claims to own a speaker he despises?!? Or that he went on a bender trying to get Newform Research put out of business and almost got sued for it? Newform being a ribbon hybrid dipole, ironically enough.
post #79 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzin
Ask the general public about NHT(or any other brand mentioned on this forum),they'll give you the same answer,NHT- who?
You'd be surprised. Yes, maybe 5-10% of the population. Magnepan is probably more known. But Perigee? Like, what, .01%? Maybe? I haven't even heard of them. Like I said, most of the brands you listed are e-stats, not ribbons. All I'm saying is that Magnepan is better known and more popular than every other ribbon speaker combined. Ribbons, I'm afraid *are* fading.
post #80 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
BTW, WHO is calling the Magnepan tweeter "the best tweeter ever made"?!? Reviewers seem to say this about *every* speaker. The JMLab is "the best", the Genesis tweeter is "the best", the B&W Diamond is "the best", the Revelator is "the best". Gimme a break. There's no consensus on anything in the reviewing industry except that spending more money is better than spending less because that means more advertising $$$.
Someone said that the JM Lab tweeter was the best? Did they have complete hearing loss above 10K? Never heard the Genesis, but the other ones I understand and would agree with (esp. B&W).

mr little jeans,
Too bad the thread has been hijacked. The Xd does seem like an interesting speaker that's worth a demo but not a blind purchase. Its sound may be a complete departure from the typical NHT sound (which the T6s exhibit) which is quite different than how Maggies sound. I've owned and still own NHTs (the original 0's, Super 0's w/ North Creek XO Mod) for more than 15 years and used to sell them back in the late 80's/early 90's. I've had pleasant exchanges with John at audiocircle (I think it was). I have nothing negative to say towards him but, just to note, he was pushing the Xd there as well.

While, it's true there are only a few large scale manufacturers of ribbon-based speakers out there, some of those manufacturers, IMO, are among the best.

I just bought a new pair of Magnepan MG12s last Friday after having heard Maggies in various systems for almost 20 years. There are a couple of great (monopole) ribbon alternatives that are more dynamic: VMPS Ribbon Monitors (ribbon from 167Hz up) and Newform Research (ribbon from 1K up).

I've owned VMPS speakers since 1988 (or around there). I just have the sub now but I did have the Ribbon Monitor 2's (RM2) which are incredibly dynamic and provide a "you are there" experience. I auditioned the Newform R630 at what was/is their only dealer...National Sound in Toronto. Ugly speaker but beautiful ribbon sound. Easy to drive and dynamic. Can play jazz, classical, and hard rock with ease. If it wasn't so ugly, that's what I would have bought based on that extended 3 hour (read...got a parking ticket) listening session.

For anyone who is still reading... George Short (aka North Creek Music), who used to work at Apogee, has just started producing a line of ribbon speakers. -> advancedribbontechnologies.com. He's an honest guy and produces good speakers. I bet these would be very good.
post #81 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharper
Someone said that the JM Lab tweeter was the best? Did they have complete hearing loss above 10K? Never heard the Genesis, but the other ones I understand and would agree with (esp. B&W).
Heck, yeah, not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing. There's 100 different audio reviewers and there's at least 25 different opinions on "the best tweeter".
Quote:

The Xd does seem like an interesting speaker that's worth a demo but not a blind purchase. Its sound may be a complete departure from the typical NHT sound (which the T6s exhibit) which is quite different than how Maggies sound.
Imagine the T6 overall sound, but with a lot more detail and a much bigger soundfield. Maybe halfway between the Maggies and the T6 in sound. They actually remind me of well set up Apogees running with servo subs, probably the closest overall sound, actually. The soundstage isn't quite as big as Maggies, but a lot of Maggie owners have really liked them when they hear them. Don't know if there's a dealer in TN, but I don't think so at the moment. Dealers don's seem to know what to do with active speakers. They just don't like the concept. Too much too explain, I suppose.

But I think the OP is doing the right thing in seeing how is speakers work in the new place before jumping ship.
post #82 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
First of all, he said "ultimate dynamics", which means "it won't play as loud as Klipschorns." Neither will a Magnepan. The Xds are WAY more dynamic than Maggies. And most other speakers. Most expensive high-end speakers have well over 1% and even as much as 5% midrange distortion at 90dB, typically 1W of power. Xds have .2% midrange distortion at 97dB and so they sound *effortless*, which is different than what most audiophiles incorrectly call "dynamic". You'd KNOW that if you'd have HEARD an Xd. The fact that you claim to own them when you most certainly don't wrecks any hint of credibility you have on this issue.

As for "haven't got a clue", then you'll have to also tell that to Mr Clean and my customer from Thursday who bought TWO pairs of Xd and is a professional conductor and musician and his wife is a musician. And I played percussion in my high school orchestra and in regionals. So while I don't *love* classical music, I know it very well and know what live sounds like. And Xd is one of the most lifelike speakers I've ever heard. You should actually try listening to one some time instead of pretending to own a speaker you think you hate.

Anyone else here think it's funny Mac, errrr Zissou, claims to own a speaker he despises?!? Or that he went on a bender trying to get Newform Research put out of business and almost got sued for it? Newform being a ribbon hybrid dipole, ironically enough.
You apparently are delusional as to who you think this is. The Newform are a fabulous speaker in every way. The R645 I owned for may years and very happily.
You seem to think there are one or two people who are put off by your shenanigans. You couldn't be more wrong. If you think the xD is remotely close in dynamics to the 3.6 or 20.1 you clearly have a screw loose, but then you've never heard the 3.6 have you Sybil?
post #83 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
You apparently are delusional as to who you think this is.
If it walks like a Mac and quacks like a Mac......

Oh, sure, you could be rnhood or musman maybe, but I still guess Mac. Or maybe you want to say what handle you use on AA so you're not hiding? [/quote]

If you think the xD is remotely close in dynamics to the 3.6 or 20.1 you clearly have a screw loose, but then you've never heard the 3.6 have you Sybil?[/quote]

What do you think "dynamics" is?!? Measure FR and distortion at 50 dB, 70dB, 90dB, 100dB on the Xd and then on Maggies and see. Want to bet money on the outcome? Dynamics isn't an illusion, it's the ability to play at a wide range accurately and with low distortion.

By your definition, you're right, the Xd is less colored than the Magnepans, so it will *seem* less dynamic to *you* because you think that coloration = dynamics. There are speakers that play louder, but few that are as legitimately dynamic as Xd, and especially not a ribbon. In fact, one of my beefs with Maggies is that they are *not* dynamic at all. They have to be cranked up to sound decent but only so much so you don't blow them. Xds can handle large scale stuff at volumes that will have the Magnepans going on an interstate tour.
post #84 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
If it walks like a Mac and quacks like a Mac......

Oh, sure, you could be rnhood or musman maybe, but I still guess Mac. Or maybe you want to say what handle you use on AA so you're not hiding?
If you think the xD is remotely close in dynamics to the 3.6 or 20.1 you clearly have a screw loose, but then you've never heard the 3.6 have you Sybil?[/quote]

What do you think "dynamics" is?!? Measure FR and distortion at 50 dB, 70dB, 90dB, 100dB on the Xd and then on Maggies and see. Want to bet money on the outcome? Dynamics isn't an illusion, it's the ability to play at a wide range accurately and with low distortion.

By your definition, you're right, the Xd is less colored than the Magnepans, so it will *seem* less dynamic to *you* because you think that coloration = dynamics. There are speakers that play louder, but few that are as legitimately dynamic as Xd, and especially not a ribbon. In fact, one of my beefs with Maggies is that they are *not* dynamic at all. They have to be cranked up to sound decent but only so much so you don't blow them. Xds can handle large scale stuff at volumes that will have the Magnepans going on an interstate tour.[/quote]

I feel sorry for you Sybil. You are truly delusional. Get yourself some help. You need it.
post #85 of 179
Ummmm, I guess that means you're not going to divulge your true identity, nor are you going to be able to produce any pictures of these speakers you allegedly own. You calling me delusional is like a double negative, so I'll take it as a huge compliment :)
post #86 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans
Title says it all. Thinking of selling my 3.6R's and amp and buying the NHT Xd system.

Or even maybe get the NHT Evolution T6 tower system?

Anybody have thoughts on this?
Quite different speakers! Try a line array with DEQX and you can get the best of both worlds :)
post #87 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Craig
Try a line array with DEQX and you can get the best of both worlds :)
Ya wanna fight about it?!? ;)
post #88 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou
Nuance you fail to understand how difficult it is to measure panel speakers. Panels by their nature are designed to measure flat at the listening position, that is 8 feet or more away from the speaker and Stereophile simply cannot do that. Logans measure just as badly when measured in th nearfield. Oh yes and Stereophile DOES NOT measure in an anechoic chamber. Please get your "facts" straight.
For a bad review see the Ceramique review featured prominently on the front page of the website right now.
The 3.6 remains the most praised speaker since the LS3/5A.
This is from the measurements section of the Maggie and EVERY large panel speaker has the same type of disclaimer. Please try to get even a basic understanding of things before spreading misinformation. Your rant has no basis in fact.


the microphone was at a 50" distance, which results in a significant proximity effect with such a physically large speaker. This accounts for much of the downward response tilt evidenced between 200Hz and 2kHz in this graph. The level mismatch between the midrange diaphragm and the ribbon tweeter is still evident, but I wonder how this will manifest itself at a normal listening distance. (Circumstances dictate that I use a 50" microphone distance for my acoustic measurements.) The logistics of the magazine's relocation to New York meant that I could not perform in-room measurements in BD's listening environment

As I have written before in these pages, measuring physically large speakers with in-room quasi-anechoic techniques is in some ways a fruitless task. The usual assumption, that the measuring microphone is very much farther away than the largest dimension of the speaker being measured, is clearly wrong. Yet without access to a large anechoic chamber costing many hundreds of thousands of dollars, in-room measurement techniques are all we have to rely on.

I hope you know who Mr. Linkwitz is:

Siegfied Linkwitz comments

Editor: The review of the Magneplanar MG3.6/R in the August Stereophile caught my attention. I am a proponent of open-baffle speakers because of their room acoustic advantages and the absence of sound coloring boxes. So I looked with great interest at figs.2 & 3 on page 89 showing individual driver frequency responses and their summation.

The nearfield measurements of woofer and midrange in fig.2, presumably taken only an inch or so from the driver surface, are a valid set of data. You also could have measured the tweeter at such close range and obtained useful information. Where things fall apart is in fig.3 when you form the complex sum of nearfield measurements and the 50" tweeter "farfield" measurement. This curve does not represent the frequency response a listener might experience at any distance and is therefore extremely misleading.

The nearfield frequency response of an acoustic source is only proportional to its farfield response if the source is small, ie, omnidirectional, and if it is in free-space. Summing a driver diameter corrected woofer nearfield response to a farfield midrange response works for a small monitor on a stand, but already has errors when the speaker is larger and the woofer is close to the floor—when the conditions move away from free-space or anechoic.

The Magneplanar is clearly not a point source and, being open-baffle, it has an acoustic short circuit between front and back. This causes a 6 dB/octave low-frequency roll-off in the farfield response. So from all open baffle nearfield measurements you have to subtract first a 6dB/octave (= 20dB/decade) slope before you can sum the data with other farfield measurements. When you apply this correction to the MG3.6 woofer response you see that it flattens from 400Hz to 60Hz and shows a peak at 47Hz. Similarly the midrange has to be corrected before you can use it for the composite response. The actual room response is still different from this composite, though, primarily due to the effect of the floor on woofer radiation.

You might consider to add a measurement taken with a 50ms time window at your listening position, spatially averaged and half-octave smoothed to include the room. I think as a measurement that allows true comparison between speakers, this would be more useful than the composite data that are correct only in a few special cases.

I hope this letter helps your readers to understand the difficulties in describing a loudspeaker by measurements.

No bad reviews? You sure seem set on this train of thought.


http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...rs/kharma1000/

My first clue was that, as I put the CE-2.0s through their paces, some subtle aspect of visceral enjoyment eluded me. In the best of times, the music or the sound has the power to stop me in my tracks as I go about my other activities. The Kharmas never snared me as I passed through the music room. Moreover, when I auditioned familiar discs, I rarely got that jolt of presence when I didn't expect it, or even when I did. I know that I've written that I prefer neutrality to euphonics, but the Kharmas were just uninvolving. Whether this is due to the inherent performance of the driver, its interactions with the enclosure, or its phase/amplitude behavior with the crossover, I can't say. (But I betcha John Atkinson can!)


Male announcers on WQXR-FM sounded more baritonal than ever. In mono, they were bottled up in the CE-2.0 box with their voices escaping just from the midrange diaphragm. Male singers were just as near as ever, but lacked immediacy and impact.

If you can imagine it, Hans Theesink's voice on "Call Me" (from Burmester Sampler CD II) was big, but more bluff than buff. Female voices suffered, too. For an analytic example, use any of Rickie Lee Jones' recordings and dissect her voice into three components: the pitched tones, the nasal twang, and the breathy overtones. Only with the proper balance of all three does Jones sound like Jones. Unfortunately, the CE-2.0's low-mid bump sapped the breathy overtones and emphasized the nasal twang. Result: Jones sounded just like Jones, but with a head cold.


The consistent mid-low bias, coupled with the de-emphasis of breath and mouth sounds, made most male and female voices rounder and richer than normal, but less explicit. Even such a gorgeous recording as Lorna Hunt's All in One Day (Classic DAD 1015) was rendered unexciting and a bit plummy over the Kharmas. I once had the pleasure of hearing Hunt sing many of these songs as I sat about as far from her as I do from the speakers in my room, and I know that this 24/96 disc captures her voice and presence with accuracy. With the Kharmas, she was somewhere else; consequently, so was I.


When I pushed the CE-2.0s in order to assess their dynamic capacity, the lower-midrange bias very quickly became obtrusive. Sure, they played and pounded real loud with no sign of stress or distortion, but it was too easy to play them louder than I cared to hear them.

All of these problems seemed to result from a tonal bias at the expense of presence. I have no reason to believe that these samples were not representative, and the removal of the fabric grilles had no significant audible influence. I've recently added a pair of double-sided panels in the corners behind the speakers, and another pair of single-sided ones on the walls to catch the first side reflections. Repositioning or even removing these failed to change the Kharma's midrange.

The Kharma CE-2.0 is a wide-range, low-distortion speaker of high quality. A pair of them driven by good electronics will make many listeners very happy. Aside from that midrange bump, the CE-2.0's performance and panache are everything one demands from a speaker in its exalted price range. Others of us would not accept the midrange aberration even in a $500 speaker, although application of equalization confirms the Kharma's superb potential. Like noble Achilles, the CE-2.0 has every strength but one fatal flaw.


http://ultimateavmag.com/surroundsou...ors/1205arcam/

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...nt/index1.html

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...on/index1.html


http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...5ml/index.html


blame this on the cabinet and port. "Way Down Deep," from Jennifer Warnes' The Hunter (CD, Private Music 01005-82089-2), did indeed go way down deep at moderate levels, with substantial air movement at the rear port and only moderate vibration from all surfaces of the main enclosure. If I turned up the volume to the point where it impressed my friends, the port volume increased a bit but the cabinet vibrations rose in alarming proportion, accompanied by a loss of that delightful bass definition. I didn't remove either mid/bass driver to see how the cabinet was made, but it doesn't matter. Whether a matter of materials or of assembly, no speaker enclosure should vibrate like this unless the design brief is to have the whole thing act as a sound source.


Like Kal, I found that the Montage reached its dynamic limits sooner than I was anticipating. During the review period I was working on a new recording of Cantus, Comfort and Joy, Volume Two, the second part of the choir's Christmas music project, due for release in the fall. On one track, the African "Betelehemu," the singers are accompanied by a battery of percussion, including two djembes of different size. The djembe is a relatively small drum held between the player's knees; it is basically designed to be a bass "cannon," producing an enormous wash of low frequencies when struck. Asked to reproduce these drums, the Montage lost definition, blunting the attack and reducing the differentiation of the drums' pitches.

Was it the cabinet resonances that were muddying the sound? When I auditioned the half-note-spaced toneburst track on Editor's Choice (CD, Stereophile STPH016-2), while I could hear the coloring effect of the resonances mentioned above, they were definitely in the lower midrange rather than the upper bass—too high in frequency to explain what Kal and I heard. A mystery.

There are many examples of extremely bad reviews. The Audio Research LS8 springs to mind and as you seem to be so up on things I am sure you've read Collom's blistering attack right?
Yes I know who Linkwitz is, he designed the Orion loudspeaker. Your quotes from him are meaningless to me. Thanks for all the mumbo jumbo whooey and quotes (yes I am being sarcastic). All that proves is that *some* people have differing opinions than I. So what!?


You say stereophile gave the Kharma CE-2.0 a bad review (I assume that is what you meant by posting that link). Then why does the author conclude by saying this:

"The Kharma CE-2.0 is a wide-range, low-distortion speaker of high quality. A pair of them driven by good electronics will make many listeners very happy."

If that is in fact the speaker that you claim got a bad review, then I think you need to reread the conclusion.

I have plenty more to respond but little time; I have to get some cavities fixed...bummer. Be back later to rebuttal.
post #89 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow 8
This has become yet another personal attack thread on John. Still waiting for proof of ownership of the NHT's but apparently it is not likely to come. Finally, why would anyone pay $6K for a pair of speakers that perform so poorly? :rolleyes:

Still awaiting an answer to why you spent $6K on speakers that sound terrible to you.
post #90 of 179
If I claimed I had a threesome with Charleze Theron and Angelina Jolie, would I have to posts pics to prove it? :p
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