Guide to 1080i DVI on Radeons

Guide to 1080i DVI-HDMI with ATI Radeon

Many users have reported problems getting older ATI Radeon cards (such as 9xxx series) to drive HDTVs at 1080i resolution through DVI-HDMI. The suggestion I see most of the time is to just give it up and buy the ATI Component dongle - or to switch to an NVidia card.

After countless tests with and without PowerStrip and using various ATI Catalyst driver versions, I finally found a pattern and a way to consistently make the ATI drivers do 1080i properly on my own Radeon 9550 through DVI-HDMI to my Toshiba 56HM195 DLP as well as DVI-DVI to my HP 2335 LCD. Standard 1080i as well as custom resolutions that eliminate overscan.

It is NOT just about finding the right PowerStrip modeline (timing parameters) as I first thought. I am convinced that there is a bug in all Catalyst drivers 5.5 and later that prevent them from doing interlaced modes through DVI with older Radeon cards.

Users with newer ATI cards generally seem not to have this particular problem - although they too have other issues with ATI and HDTVs. Maybe some HDTVs are also more tolerant than others. This guide is for those who DO have problems and have been unable to get their ATI cards to deliver a 1080i signal their HDTV can sync to.


With or without PowerStrip

As much as I have tried to work around it, I am finding that PowerStrip is necessary with Catalyst drivers 5.5 and later. I am currently using PowerStrip 3.65 in combination with Catalyst 6.5 and Catalyst Control Center (CCC).

CAUTION: PowerStrip is a powerful and dangerous tool. You can damage you hardware and your HDTV if you don't know what you are doing. You can also corrupt your display setup badly. If you use this guide, it is your own responsibility! I will not provide tech support if you have problems and I accept no liability!

For troublefree 1080i WITHOUT PowerStrip, use Catalyst 5.4 drivers. They do not support custom resolutions, so overscan cannot be eliminated, but they do 1080i right out of the box. The interlace problems seemed to start only from Catalyst 5.5.

Even with PowerStrip, the newer ATI drivers will ONLY do interlaced resolutions properly if specific steps are followed EXACTLY. If you make even one little mistake, you may not be able to get into 1080i mode no matter how much you try. If that happens, you have to un-install and re-install the ATI drivers (and preferably also PowerStrip) and start over. I suggest using the AtiCimUn utility to get rid of all ATI driver files before re-installing. AtiCimUn.exe is in the same folder as Setup.exe when you unpack the Catalyst download.

Also, even after getting 1080i working, there are still some annoying, but minor issues with the ATI drivers. But that said, 1080i looks absolutely STUNNING on my Toshiba 56HM195 (1080p DLP set, max 1080i through HDMI). Totally crisp one-to-one pixel rendering. I can clearly read even small text 12-14 feet away. Pictures and HD videos look amazing.


How to do it (if you know your stuff)

The main trick to get 1080i (standard and custom resolutions) is to add each resolution to the ATI driver with 60Hz progressive refresh rate BEFORE trying to switch to it as interlaced resolution in PowerStrip.

In the case of 1920x1080, you use Catalyst Control Center's "HDTV Support" panel to add 1080p60 to the driver as a predefined HDTV format. In the case of other resolutions, you must use PowerStrip to add the resolution as 60Hz progressive. In both cases must you do this BEFORE actually using PowerStrip to switch to the resolution in interlaced mode. Once a resolution is added with progressive refresh rate to the ATI driver, you can enter interlaced mode in PowerStrip - and it should actually work.

The important thing is NEVER to let the ATI drivers try to do 1080i on their own. They THINK they can do it, but they really can't - and once they've tried, not even PowerStrip can get that resolution working again.

Setting up these resolutions is done easiest and safest on a PC monitor that supports true 1080p, but it is also possible on your 1080i-only HDTV using the steps below.


Steps to standard 1080i (1920x1080 with overscan)


1. Re-install your ATI Catalyst drivers

If you have already tried to do 1080i with your currently installed ATI drivers, you may not be able to get this working at all because the drivers have stored information in the registry that prevents interlaced from working - even with PowerStrip. There are ways to fix this, but the best way is to un-install the ATI drivers completely and re-install the latest Catalyst version (6.5 at time of this post).

Also, if you have already played with PowerStrip and have some custom resolutions added, I suggest you un-install that as well. In theory, deleting PSTRIP.INI should be enough, but I found it wasn't always. Don't re-install PowerStrip until step 5 in this guide.

It is often a lot easier to do this step on an LCD or CRT monitor BEFORE connecting the PC to the HDTV.


2. Set "Use centered timings" in CCC

After you have re-installed the ATI drivers and re-started Windows, open CCC (Catalyst Control Center) and enter the Advanced mode.

Under "Digital Panel Properties-Attributes-Image Scaling" select "Use centered timings" and click Apply.


3. Add 720p and 1080p modes in CCC -- but don't switch yet

In CCC under "Digital Panel Properties-HDTV Support-HDTV modes supported by this display" select "Add 720p60 formats to the Display Manager" and "Add 1080p60 formats to the Display Manager". This only makes these modes available for selection, but does not actually switch to them.

Switching to 1080p could cause problems or even damage your HDTV.

Do NOT select "Add 1080i30 formats to the Display Manager" - we don't want the ATI drivers to attempt 1080i on their own.

Select Yes if you get a warning when you try to add these modes. Click Apply (NOT "Apply Format") and notice that the added modes now appear below under "Predefined and Custom HDTV formats".


4. Create a working 720p profile and hotkey in CCC

While still in CCC under "Digital Panel Properties-HDTV Support" under "Predefined and Custom HDTV formats" select "720p60 standard" and click "Apply Format". This will switch to 720p mode.

All ATI driver versions should be able to do 720p without problems (except some overscan) and I am not going to elaborate on 720p. If you DON'T get a working 720p picture, your problems are beyond this guide. Just wait 15 seconds, and the drivers will revert to the previous mode. Sorry

If there is too much overscan, you could choose "720p60 optimized" instead or you can customize a 720p resolution by clicking "Add" while "720p60 standard" is selected.

Once you have a working 720p mode, create a profile with a hotkey so that you can always switch back to 720p if you ever loose the picture on the HDTV. Use CCC "Profiles-Profiles Manager" and make sure you check "Display manager" under "This profile includes". I have profiles for 720p (Ctrl-Alt-7) 540p (Ctrl-Alt-5) and 480p (Ctrl-Alt4).

Test your profile and make sure you can return to 720p using the hotkey. You will need it!


5. Install PowerStrip while in 720p mode

Install PowerStrip while in 720p mode and re-start Windows as prompted. The first time PowerStrip is loaded, it will save the current resolution as a default. Until 1080i is stable, you want that default to be 720p. Once you have 1080i working, you can force PowerStrip to re-scan and save 1080i as your default.

In PowerStrip Quick setup, make sure you enable "Auto-load with Windows". Otherwise you may accidentally switch to 1080p mode when PowerStrip is not there to force 1080i mode. Worst case, this could damage you HDTV.

If you have been using a PC monitor other than your HDTV up until this point and if that monitor does NOT support 1920x1080 at 30Hz interlaced, then now is the time to shut down your PC and connect it to the HDTV instead. On the other hand, if your monitor DOES support 1080i (or even 1080p) the following steps are best continued on the PC monitor until you have 1080i working.


6. Enter 1080i interlaced mode under PowerStrip Custom resolutions

Now that 1080p is added to the ATI driver (i.e. 1920x1080 with 60Hz progressive mode refresh rate) 1920x1080 can be created as a custom resolution in PowerStrip using 30Hz interlaced mode. As long as PowerStrip controls the 1920x1080 resolution, it will force the proper 1080i mode - even though the ATI driver thinks it is in 1080p mode.

While still in 720p mode, enter PowerStrip Custom resolutions: Right click the PowerStrip tray icon and select "Display profiles-Configure-Advanced timing options-Custom resolutions".

CAUTION: I have to warn again that one wrong click in here could render your display setup useless - or worst case even damage your HDTV.

This is not meant to be a PowerStrip course. My focus here is really how to make the ATI drivers actually do interlaced mode properly. Elaborate descriptions of PowerStrip custom resolutions can be found on Karnis original guide here:

Karnis Custom Resolution Guide for 1080i HDTV-HTPC-POWERSTRIP-RADEON

But just briefly:

Different HDTVs use different variants of 1080i mode, referred to as timings (or sometimes T&R). You have to find the right timings for your HDTV. PowerStrip includes many Predefined timings for various resolutions (displayed by selecting the Predefined radio button). Also, your TV reports recommended resolutions and timings (displayed by selecting the E-EDID radio button).

By selecting a resolution from the list (either Predefined, User defined or E-EDID) its timing values will be displayed under "New resolution". "Active pixels" is the resolution as seen by Windows (e.g. 1920x1080 or 1280x720). All the other fields under "New resolution" define the timing parameters of how this resolution is actually sent from the graphics card to the HDTV.

The "Add new resolution" button adds the values under "New resolution" to the "User defined" list and attempts to switch to the resolution. Once a resolution is confirmed and saved here, PowerStrip will take control of that resolution whenever it is selected anywhere in Windows and force the refresh rate and other timings accordingly.

Using the icons at the bottom right, a resolution can be copied or pasted to and from the Windows clipboard as lines of text (called a modeline) which is used to save specific resolutions and timings and exchange them with other users. Hold the mouse cursor over each icon to display its tooltip.

Right now we are only interested in 1920x1080i resolutions. I suggest trying resolutions in the following order:

A) A 1920x1080i mode should be listed under E-EDID which I suggest trying first. It should work in theory - but doesn't always, as was the case with my Toshiba 56HM195. If no 1920x1080i mode is listed here, your HDTV may simply not support 1080i through DVI/HDMI.

B) If you have a working modeline for your HDTV from another user on this forum or elsewhere, copy that to the Windows clipboard and paste it using the pasteboard icon. For example my Toshiba accepts the following modeline (which is a little different from the E-EDID one that didn't work).

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,48,144,1080,4,10,32,74250,2312

C) Try the Predefined 1920x1080i resolutions. In particular, I would recommend the following for recent models of fixed resolution HDTVs (LCD, DLP, LCoS etc):

1920x1080i 60Hz (EIA/CEA-861B) - for NTCS TVs
1920x1080i 50Hz (EIA/CEA-861B) - for PAL TVs

There are other Predefined 1920x1080i resolutions that may or may not work with your HDTV - CRT HDTVs in particular are generally more tolerant with timings.

Click the "Add new resolution button" to try each of these resolutions. If the screen goes blank or becomes unreadable, just press ESC or wait a few seconds without pressing any keys and PowerStrip should revert to the previous resolution. Otherwise hit your hotkey to switch to the 720p profile created earlier.

You could also hit Ctrl-S to switch to PowerStrip's default mode, but this can cause some ATI driver versions to crash Windows - which is the reason I recommended creating a 720p profile with CCC.

Once you (hopefully) have a stable picture in 1080i, click Yes to keep it then Close to exit "Custom resolutions". This will get you back to "Advanced timing options" where you can use the left set of arrows to shift the image up/down/left/right. If you want to make the picture smaller due to overscan, you should create a custom resolution as described later in this guide rather than using the right set of arrows in here.

Click OK to leave "Advanced timing options" and OK again to close "Display profiles". Your 1080i custom timings have been saved and will now be enforced by PowerStrip whenever 1920x1080 is selected anywhere in Windows.

NOTE: If you are setting this up on a PC monitor that supports 1080p as well as 1080i, you may occasionally find that PowerStrip tries to enter interlaced mode but is really still in progressive mode. You can see in "Advanced timing options" that the Interlaced check box is clear. You will also notice that the refresh rate is most likely 60Hz and not 30Hz. This can be tricky and happens mostly with Catalyst 5.x drivers. The solution is usually to exit to "Display profiles" (hit OK or Cancel in "Advanced timing options") and uncheck the lock icon to revert control of the resolution to Windows and the ATI drivers. Click Apply to save this. Now go back into "Custom resolutions" and select or paste the interlaced timings again. Don't select from "User defined" as it will contain the incorrect 1080p timings.


7. Create a 1080i profile and hotkey in CCC

Now that you have a working 1080i mode, create a profile with a hotkey to activate it. Use CCC "Profiles-Profiles Manager" and make sure you check "Display manager" under "This profile includes". I use Ctrl-Alt-1 for 1080i.

Test switching between 720p and 1080i using hotkeys. You may find that your HDTV sometimes is unable to pick up the 1080i signal from the ATI card - particularly immediately after starting Windows or when the input source on the HDTV has been switched away from the DVI or HDMI port connected to the PC. When this happens, just switch to 720p with the hotkey, and once you have a picture switch to 1080i with the other hotkey.


Custom 1080i resolutions to eliminate overscan

Once the standard 1080i resolution has been made to work, custom resolutions can be created to eliminate overscan. A custom 1080i resolution uses the same total timings as the standard resolution so that the HDTV sees it as 1080i, but it has fewer "Active pixels" and is seen by Windows as a lower resolution.

For example, I have a custom resolution of 1848x1040 - which my Toshiba HDTV sees as 1080i, but the active picture area is smaller so that I can see the entire desktop and taskbar. It extends only a couple of pixels beyond the edge of the TV screen on all sides.

For playing full-screen video, you actually want some overscan to hide black edges of the source material. 1080i OTA recordings are often 1934x1088 resolution with some black edges and you may want to use the standard 1080i resolution when playing them. But for games and other Windows applications you want to eliminate the overscan.

Catalyst Control Center has a feature to create custom HDTV resolutions that eliminate overscan. But it works only with 720p and 1080i modes, not 1080p. Since the ATI driver thinks that our 1080i mode is really 1080p, CCC cannot be used to make custom resolutions for a 1080i mode controlled by PowerStrip.

Instead you have to use the "Design a resolution-in-a-resolution" function under PowerStrip "Custom resolutions" to create a smaller resolution with the same total timings as 1080i. When you click "Add new resolution" it will be written to the registry, after which Windows needs to be re-started for the ATI driver to see the resolution.

HOWEVER, remember that because of the interlace bug in the ATI drivers, any interlaced resolution must be added to the driver with a progressive 60Hz refresh rate BEFORE switching to interlaced mode in PowerStrip. This presents a chicken-and-egg-problem since you really need to be in 1080i mode to view the picture and determine the amount of overscan to eliminate on your HDTV. Yet you MUST save the new resolution as progressive the first time. Here is how:


Steps to custom 1080i (eliminate overscan)


1. Determine visible "Active pixel" area in 1080i

Connect the Radeon to your HDTV through DVI and switch to 1080i mode. As always, make sure PowerStrip is running before switching to 1080i mode.

Enter PowerStrip "Custom resolutions": Right click the PowerStrip tray and select "Display profiles-Configure-Advanced timing options-Custom resolutions".

Click the icon "Design a resolution-in-a-resolution" and determine the number of "Active pixels" by resizing the black window so that it extends just a couple pixels beyond the screen borders. You may want to use a calculator and make sure the resolution has a 16:9 aspect ratio.

Now make a note of the resolution (e.g. 1848x1040 works well for my Toshiba 56HM195) and click Cancel. DO NOT save this resolution yet by clicking "Add new resolution". Just make a note of the resolution when you have sized the black window.

If you were to save this 1080i based resolution now (by clicking "Add new resolution") the ATI driver would see the new resolution as an interlaced resolution - but we don't want the ATI driver to even think of interlaced resolutions.

If you accidentally save it at this point, this particular resolution will be "lost" to you as interlaced resolution -- unless you uninstall and re-install the ATI drivers completely.


2. Enter new custom resolution based on 1080p

Still in "Custom resolutions" under Predefined, find and click "1920x1080p 60Hz (EIA/CEA-861B)" BUT DO NOT ADD IT. Alternatively you can paste the following modeline, but again DO NOT ADD IT:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,48,144,1080,4,5,36,148500,1

Check "Lock total geometry".

Now type in the custom resolution values you noted before under Active pixels (e.g. 1848x1040). Don't worry about the Horizontal and Vertical timings or the Pixel clock or other settings. This mode will never be used, the purpose is only to add a 1080p based progressive custom resolution for the ATI driver to see.


3. Save new 1080p based resolution and restart - do not switch to it

After entering the "Active pixels" for your custom resolution, you can now click "Add new resolution". PowerStrip will show a popup saying that the resolution has been added and Windows must be restarted. Click the Restart button to have PowerStrip restart Windows.

NOTE: If PowerStrip DOES NOT suggest to restart Windows it is because you entered a resolution that happened to already exist in the ATI driver. This is sometimes OK, but it's safer to create a completely new custom resolution. DO NOT click OK when PowerStrip asks if you want to switch to the new resolution. Click Cancel instead and go back to step (1) and use the black window to find a resolution that is a little larger or smaller.

If your HDTV has problems picking up the 1080i signal after you restart Windows, just switch to 720p with the hotkey, and once you have a picture switch to 1080i with the other hotkey.


4. Create new custom resolution based on 1080i

After Windows has restarted and PowerStrip has loaded, the ATI driver should now be aware of the new resolution. Do not switch to this resolution yet. Instead switch to 1080i (if not already there) and go back into PowerStrip "Custom resolutions": Right click the PowerStrip tray icon and select "Display profiles-Configure-Advanced timing options-Custom resolutions".

Under "User defined" find your 1920x1080i resolution (NOT the new custom resolution) and click it, but DO NOT click "Add new resolution" yet.

Check "Lock total geometry" - this is VERY important!

In the "Active pixels" fields type in the custom resolution values you noted earlier (e.g. 1848x1040). This time it's the real deal, and you can click the "Add new resolution" button. PowerStrip will check that the ATI driver accepts the new resolution and ask if you want to switch to it. Click OK and watch your custom resolution fill the HDTV screen without overscan!

If you do NOT have a stable picture (or any picture at all) just press ESC or wait a few seconds without pressing any keys and PowerStrip should revert to the previous resolution. Otherwise hit your hotkey to activate the 720p profile created earlier.

The most likely reason for this is that the ATI driver already had a record of this resolution and has previusly tried to switch to it in interlaced mode - which, as I described, will prevent this resolution from ever working. Or you did not follow this guide EXACTLY. You can try exit to "Display profiles" (hit Close to exit "Custom resolutions" then hit Cancel to exit "Advanced timing options") and uncheck the lock icon to revert control of the resolution to Windows and the ATI drivers. Click Apply to save this. Now go back into "Custom resolutions" and try this entire step (4) again. If this still does not work, I know of no other way than to un-install and re-install the ATI drivers and start over on this guide.

Assuming you have a stable picture, click Yes to keep it then Close to exit "Custom resolutions". This will get you back to "Advanced timing options" where you can use the left set of arrows to shift the image up/down/left/right.

Click OK to leave "Advanced timing options" and OK again to close "Display profiles". Your custom resolution and timings have been saved and will now be enforced by PowerStrip whenever the new resolution is selected anywhere in Windows.


5. Create a profile and hotkey for the custom resolution in CCC

As with 720p and 1080i I suggest you create a profile and hotkey in CCC to make it easy to switch to the new resolution. Use CCC "Profiles-Profiles Manager" and make sure you check "Display manager" under "This profile includes".

Test switching between 720p, 1080i and your new custom resolution using hotkeys. As with 1080i, you may find that your HDTV sometimes is unable to pick up the interlaced signal from the ATI card - particularly immediately after starting Windows or when the input source on the HDTV has been switched away from the DVI or HDMI port connected to the PC. When this happens, just switch to 720p with the hotkey, and once you have a picture switch to the custom resolution with the other hotkey.

-----------------------------

Of course this particular issue with the ATI drivers is becoming less critical as more users buy new ATI cards or switch to Nvidia - which I hear is much more HDTV friendly. But for now, I am able to run applications, games and play HD video at the ultimate resolution and quality supported by my TV - at it looks great!

Hope it works for you as well. Of course I welcome any comments on success - or failure - to make this work with your setup.

I look forward to hearing your results, vaporeOn.

When you say 1080i looks bad, do you mean it doesn't look as nice as 720p or that it's just not working at all?

I ask because the issue that this guide addresses is one where the TV screen goes black entirely or scrolls or flickers wildly when attempting 1080i. The TV just won't sync to the signal. I think when you say timing problem, that's what you mean.

If what you are seeing is "merely" problems of picture quality, then probably your card and drivers are at least doing 1080i OK -- even though there may be other issues that affect quality.

Indeed, nearly but not completely impossible...

After trying for many months, I had concluded that it WAS indeed impossible to get 1080i working. Yet I kept trying and almost couldn't believe it when one day I suddenly managed to get my TV to sync in 1080i -- and it looked gorgeous!

Before that, I actually had a number of exchanges with ATI where at one point they admitted that there was a problem -- which they claimed was related to HDMI and that a solution would come in a later driver version.

But the problem I am addressing here is not limited to HDMI -- I can reproduce both the problem and the described solution on my HP 23" LCD monitor on straight DVI-D.

If you know of another (maybe easier) way to make this work I would certainly love to hear about it.

Thanks!

I just tested the latest Catalyst 6.6 drivers, and the 1080i problem described in the guide is still the same: 1080i or other interlaced resolutions will not work on older ATI Radeons (9xxx) unless specific steps are taken.

In short:

* Standard 1080i only works if 1080p is enabled in CCC under "HDTV modes supported by this display". Once that is done PowerStrip can be used to switch to interlaced mode, and the Radeon will actually output a beautiful 1080i signal.

* Custom resolutions using 1080i timings (to eliminate overscan) MUST be added first as 1080p based progressive in PowerStrip "Custrom reoslutions". After Windows restart, go back into "Custom resolutions" and enter the 1080i based interlaced timings. Now you can switch to the new resolution and the Radeon will actually output a proper interlaced signal.

For more detailed instructions and background, please read and follow the steps in the Guide that started this thread.

Hi t10,

Thanks a lot for the feedback, sorry to hear that it didn't work for you. With a 9250 I would have thought that your card would have about the same problems as my 9550 -- and respond to the same fix.

If it's OK with you, I would like to dig a little deeper and try to understand what happened. Maybe something can be added to the guide to help others.

1) What TV do you have?

2) Was 1080p added as an HDTV resolution in CCC?

3) Was 1080i added as an HDTV resolution in CCC?

4) Were the ATI drivers (within a given install) allowed to attempt 1080i on their own? Or rather, was the first switch to 1920x1080 done from inside PowerStrip?

5) Was PowerStrip uninstalled as well when you re-installed ATI drivers?

6) Would you have the E-EDID settings reported by your TV for 1080i (either from PowerStrip custom resolutions or from MonInfo)?

7) Did you try custom resolutions on only standard 1080i?

I ask the last question because with Catalyst 5.12 CP I simply couldn't get standard 1080i to sync no matter how much I tried, whereas custom resolutions worked perfectly when done using the steps in the guide. The ATI driver's interlaced bug seemed to be hard coded for 1080i but not for any new custom resolutions.

With more recent Catalyst 6.x CCC driver I could get both 1080i and custom resolutions working consistently (again using the steps in the guide).

Of course I am eager to see if we can get it working after all, but if you have already switched to Nvidia and don't want to mess around with ATI more, I understand as well.

Thanks a lot for the VNC tip. That's a great tip. I just always switch to 720p whenever I lose the screen, that never fails. But with a second laptop your suggestion is brilliant.

Thanks again for the feedback!

t10, one thing I forgot to respond to in you post was the one of flickery in 1080i and that it may be primarily for desktop use:

Again, I don't know which kind of TV you got, but on my 1080p DLP the 1080i picture is BY FAR the preferred for playing HD as well as SD video and for Windows desktop use. Image is rock solid and crystal clear.

The only exception is the mouse cursor or dragging a window, there I can see a bit of interlaced effect at the edges of the object being moved. So I probably wouldn't use my TV for intense Photoshop work ;-)

Of course this will depend on the type of TV, but on my TV there is absolutely no question about which resolution looks better.

And hey, once again thanks for taking the time to write your findings!

t10, wow, thanks a lot for reporting all this.

It is clear that you did indeed give these steps a very thorough try, and it still didn't work out. That bugs me, and I am truly baffled as to why that would be and about the fact that there would be several independent bugs in the Cat drivers that each prevent interlaced output from working on these old cards.

As I said, I could think of a couple more things to try, but I understand absolutely and completely why you don't want to spend more time on it!

From your description, I don't think re-installing Windows would make any difference here when you already re-installed both Catalyst and PowerStrip. I re-installed Windows several times and in the end it was the exact sequence of steps after installing the ATI drivers that made the difference -- and now I can reproduce that on any of the old Windows images that I saved along the way.

On my last question, I meant if you also tried to add an entirely new resolution as described in the second half of the guide. For example, I used PowerStrip to add a custom resolution of 1848x1040 to eliminate overscan on my TV. The resolution still has the same total timings as 1920x1080 and the TV sees it as 1080i, but the ATI driver responds differently (and better) to a fresh new resolution added by PowerStrip.

Obviously the driver has some built-in settings for 1920x1080 (which we know doesn't work interlaced) and since that resolution cannot be deleted, there is no way to reset it completely. As I mentioned, I had found that Cat 5.12 wouldn't do standard 1080i no matter what I did, but it would do 1848x1040 (and several other new custom resolutions) just fine when the proper steps were followed.

I'll look over your report a little more and see if I can conclude something that should be reflected in the guide. Once again thanks a lot for trying this out and taking the time to report it!

Thanks mpgxsvcd,

I am aware that there are many users of the ATI Component dongle on this forum, and as I mention in my opening post, I see it recommended in many posts as the standard fix for problems with ATI cards on HDTVs.

Indeed, for those who have variable resolution CRT based TVs, which convert HDMI to analog anyway, I am sure the quality of going through the component adapter is fine. Also, I am well aware of the signal qualities of coax and component separation -- I have used high res monitors in prepress work since mid 80'es, most of them with 5-connector BNC cables for the same reason.

But like many people, my HDTV experience is based on fixed resolution displays that take a digital signal natively -- in my case DLP and LCD. The picture I get on my displays through DVI/HDMI is totally crisp, perfectly de-interlaced, 1-1 pixel mapped.

I just cannot imagine that converting the signal from my video card to analog, then back to digital at the TV can maintain that perfect de-interlacing required to produce a 1-1 pixel image.

That said, I have not tried the Component dongle -- and I don't intend to. In addition to the reasons mentioned above, I stubbornly refuse to reward ATI another purchase for keeping a bug in their drivers that produces flaws in the interlaced signal on digital connections.

I believe I found a way to work around that bug to enable ATI Radeon cards to actually deliver a working interlaced signal through DVI-HDMI. I wrote this guide and started this thread for those others who want to use a single cable HDMI approach -- or at least want to give it a try.

I hope we can preserve the thread on that subject, since there are thousands of other posts that discuss ATI cards based on the component approach.

Thanks.

Hey teenie, thanks a lot

There is a good suggestion. I think I'll try to keep a list of confirmed results at the end of the guide -- assuming of course that we get some results in

So far, the only confirmed results are on my own Abit Radeon 9550 connected to Toshiba 56HM195 (1080p DLP - HDMI) and to HP 2335 LCD (1920x1200 LCD - DVI). Neither of those displays would accept the Radeon's interlaced signal before, and both of them happily and perfectly accept 1080i as well as custom resolutions when using the steps in the guide.

Given that the 9550 is just a crippled Radeon 9600, I have to believe that this should work on 9600s as well. And since the nature of the problem (and the workaround) are so closely related to the driver, I would think it might apply to most 9xxx series cards. But of course, without actually trying it, we cannot confirm that yet.

t10's results on his Radeon 9250 were disappointing to me, but as you probably gathered from the posts, neither he nor I am ready to conclude definitively that his card could not be brought to work eventually. I would have liked to try a couple more things, but he felt he'd spent enough time on it and got an Nvidia card instead -- which I certainly cannot blame him!

It was interesting, though, to hear from t10 that "it is not all sunshine and lolipops in Nvidia camp either" including the less precise overscan compensation. With the custom resolution steps described in the guide, I can get any resolution to a precision of one pixel vertically and eight pixels horizontally. So maybe ATI has an edge there after all for those who are willing to go through the hoops.

I would obviously love to hear your findings if you try this out. I realize that the guide is very long and verbose -- to make sure nobody shoots themselves in the leg. But the essential steps are few, and it actually shouldn't take more than 10-15 mins to go through for most people.

Thanks again!

A general comment which I should probably have included in the reply to teenie on the subject of which hardware this guide applies to:

* This guide is a workaround for a bug in the ATI Catalyst drivers that prevent interlaced resolutions from working on some ATI Radeon cards through DVI connections (DVI->DVI and DVI->HDMI.)

* It applies to SOME but not ALL ATI Radeon cards. I have confirmed it on my Abit Radeon 9550 and strongly suspect it will work at least on other 9550s and 9600s. I have seen posts from users of Radeon 9700s and 9800s that would indicate that they have the same problem with 1080i through DVI, but no tests yet to confirm the workaround on those cards. One user has attempted the workaround on a Radeon 9250, but so far without luck.

* If you have already managed to connect your ATI card through DVI at 1080i using plain ATI drivers, and get a stable picture on your TV, your hardware is NOT affected by this bug -- at least not for standard 1080i resolution. The second half of the guide may still be of benefit to you if you want to create new custom resolutions based on 1080i.

* Also, the guide only deals with 1080i and 1080i based custom resolutions. It does't provide anything on 720p or any other progressive (i.e. non-interlaced) resolutions.

Hope this clarifies.

Hey t10, thanks for the response. You know I am eager to give your Radeon 9250 another shot, so I hope you'll take me up on it

Your last question first: I watch SD as well as HD movies in 1080i since my TV simply looks best with a 1080i signal. I don't watch much SD stuff though. I guess I could also feed 720p movies in that res and let the TV scale it, it does a fine job at that.

I have to say though, I don't watch that many movies from the PC yet since it's not a dedicated HTPC. DVDs are watched from my Oppo DVD player and most recordings are made with and watched from a 160GB AVHDD (RCA DVR 2160) connected directly to the TV thru firewire. I use the PC to backup TS files from the AVHDD, but since I haven't found a way to write them back to the AVHDD thru firewire (or to the TV, which I would love to) I play them directly from the PC thru HDMI - in perfect 1080i

Custom resolutions without a working 1080i

Now, if you want to give your Radeon 9250 another try with custom resolutions, here is what I would suggest:

I assume you are swapping your Nvidia card and starting from a fresh install of Catalyst 6.5 (since 6.6 doesn't support 92xx cards any longer). Also, probably a good idea to start with a freshly re-installed PowerStrip. Make sure you have enabled "Centered timings" in CCC (sorry, I know it's trivial, just wanna make sure).

If there is any way you can do this without VNC, you may want to try that. I have no specific reason to believe that VNC should be the cause of any problems, but I am trying to eliminate as many differences as possible between your setup and mine.

Also, you may want to make sure that you have a "Plug and Play Monitor" connected to the Radeon. You can create a custom monitor driver later if you want. I use that to solve some other Windows nuisances. But for now let's stick to the "Plug and Play Monitor" which should be detected automatically.

Start out with a working 720p resolution and make sure you have a hotkey so you can switch to it if you loose the picture.

The whole procedure for creating custom resolutions based on 1080i in a way that works around the ATI bug is described in the Guide under Custom 1080i resolutions to eliminate overscan. But since you don't have a working 1080i to start with, you won't be able to do Step 1 (Determine visible "Active pixel" area in 1080i).

I suggest to simply start from Step 2 (Enter new custom resolution based on 1080p) and enter 1912x1076 in "Active pixels" as your custom resolution - this is the largest valid resolution smaller than 1920x1080. If we manage to get that working, we can create a more exactly fitting resolution from there.

Here is that 1080p based modeline for your convenience, including the new custom resolution. Just copy this to the clipboard and paste it in PowerStrip's "Custom resolutions":

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1912x1076=1912,92,48,148,1076,6,5,38,148500,1

Re-start Windows after saving the new resolution - don't try to switch to it yet (sorry, you know that ;-)

When you get to Step 4 (Create new custom resolution based on 1080i) you can use the working modeline from your X800XL and enter 1912x1076 under "Active pixels". Make sure you check "Lock total geometry" before entering the new resolution.

OR you could also just try and paste these modelines which are based on your X800XL timings, but with the new resolution. If one doesn't work, just hit ESC and try the next one:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1912x1076=1912,100,40,148,1076,6,10,33,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1912x1076=1912,100,40,148,1076,6,10,33,74250,2312

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1912x1076=1912,100,40,148,1076,6,10,32,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1912x1076=1912,100,40,148,1076,6,10,32,74250,2312

All four of them work when I try them here. With some luck, one of these should give you a working picture. If so, hit Close/OK a couple times out to PowerStrip's "Display profiles" screen and save it!

After that you can go back into "Custom resolutions" and use the "Design-a-resolution-in-a-resolution" button to create a more exactly fitting resolution. Of course you'll still have to enter and save it as 1080p based, re-start Windows, then update it with interlaced timings before you can switch to it. This is what's described in great detail (probably too much) in the Guide.

I cannot wait to hear how this work for you. With your already very thorough tests of the predefined 1080i, I don't want to get my hopes up too high. There is the risk that your card and/or TV has some other issues altogether. There is also a risk that 9250 doesn't accept custom resolutions at all. Or it could also just give you that perfect picture

Good luck!

mpgxsvcd, that's fair enough -- and valid points.

I think that there is absolutely no risk that people will miss those other threads and posts about component. Most posts in Karnis sticky thread lead to that as well, so any new reader will see them immediately when he enters the HTPC forum.

May I ask what kind of TV you were using for those comparisons of HDMI and component?

I ask because I had other discussions of picture quality (related to DVD player input signals) and it turned out that the frame of reference was very different between users of CRTs and my own experience from DLPs and LCDs. I would go "do you guys also see these imperfections at edges and diagonal lines?" and oldtime CRT users would respond "nope, the signal from this player is perfect, we established that long time ago". Then when we compared actual photos of our screens, it was clear that individual pixels on those CRTs were so blurred they wouldn't be able to see the details I was talking about. (I am fully aware of the other qualities of CRTs, let's not get into that.)

Of course now I am taking us off topic...

But if you can tell me that you have compared HDMI and component inputs on a 1080p LCD or DLP and seen 1-1 pixel perfect rendering of 1080i signals from both inputs, you have accomplished to move me in that direction. That would be very valuable input!

Thanks.

Thank you for the fast response, mpgxsvcd. Sorry it took a while for me to get back. I am traveling these days and unable to respond as quickly as I would like.

I think you must have meant 1366x768 resolution on those Sony GWs. And you pretty much confirmed my suspicion that we ARE indeed discussing this with very different frames of reference: If you have compared 1080i DVI and component signals at that resolution, you have never seen the glorious sight of a fully resolved 1920x1080 picture on your TV.

In fact, you have only seen about half of it, sort of, since each 1080i field only has 1M pixels, but the entire frame has 2M pixels -- about twice the resolution of your TVs.

Though I am sure they truly have phenomenal PQ, your TVs will have to de-interlace and downscale the 1080i signal before displaying it. Any difference between digital and component will be lost long before you see the actual picture on your screen. This is not a bad thing for general use where some material is 720p other is 1080i.

But the discussion here is about fully and perfectly rendering a 1920x1080 source image through a 1080i signal to a 1080p display. (Actually the thread discussion was about working around a bug in ATI drivers, but you sucked me into this other discussion ;-)

As stated in my previous posts, my reference is a Toshiba 56HM195, which is a 56" 1080p native res DLP which unfortunately only takes 1080i input. It de-interlaces this signal and displays everything as 1080p. (Sure, it also takes 720p, 540p, 480p and upscale those to 1080p).

Had it accepted a 1080p signal, of course I would not have bothered messing around with 1080i, but as you point out, few current generation 1080p HDTVs actually do take 1080p signals. So the only way to get that native resolution is to feed it 1080i.

Although it does a fine job with lower resolutions, the difference is striking once you feed this TV a 1080i signal and it hits that native 1080 resolution. It is just incredibly detailed and crisp, almost as sharp as an LCD monitor, but without the screen door effect. With a magnifier, you can make out the individual pixels (such as in text fonts) but you don't see any spaces between then.

Many people seem to be under the impression that 1080p DLPs are not able to fully resolve 1920x1080 - due to wobulation and/or because of the fact that they only accept 1080i signal. And they often insist that 960x1080p60, 960x540p60 or even 1280x720p60 will be just as good or better signals. Obviously those people never actually LOOKED at one of these TVs in action -- at least not mine. When you feed it a properly timed 1080i signal you KNOW you hit the native res and that you are looking at a fully resolved picture.

Of course this is most noticeable when looking at a PC desktop, windows and text on the screen, and much less so with video that's constantly moving. For HD video, 540p (1920x540p60) is almost as good as 1080i.

But to your question, in order to get this exact one-to-one pixel mapping, the de-interlacing has to be perfect, so that it essentially just combines two interlaced 1080i fields into a single progressive 1080p frame which it then updates at 60Hz. I assume this is why my TV only accepts a very narrow range of 1080i timings through HDMI, because otherwise it cannot perform this perfect de-interlacing.

As I wrote in my first reply to you, I am highly skeptical that it can do that through component - although it may be more tolerant about signal timings. Maybe it CAN hit a perfect de-interlacing through component, and I would love to hear if someone have tried that and can verify that they get the same result as through HDMI - on a 1080p HDTV. If so I may well be willing to look at the component dongle, but until then I am not going to shell out more money to ATI or for Monster cables.

So that is why I go through the trouble of making 1080i work through HDMI.

BTW, I also use a HP 2335 23" LCD monitor for general PC use and for testing. This one does take 1080p as well as 1080i so I can test all combinations on it.

Thanks again for your response. You loosened me up on the subject of the dongle, but I have to say that your tests are not comparable to what I am doing here.

Hi teenie,

Thanks a lot for trying this -- and for reporting back.

I am on the road these days, so I am not able to give you as full feedback as I would like, but here's at least something to get you going:

First off, you're currently hitting the wall that most are running into: That of finding timings that work for your TV. If we can find the right timings, I believe there is a good chance to get it working.

This guide was actually written because EVEN with the right timings, the ATI drivers have a bug that prevent 1080i from working properly through DVI, which is that what the guide aims to address. But we still have to find the right timings...

* When PowerStrip says that "the parameters may be beyond the capablilites of the monitor", that's just a warning not an error, and you have to click OK (or Yes) to give it a try.

* If PowerStrip asks you to restart Windows, you have actually entered a NEW resolution (i.e. not 1920x1080). So far we are just looking at getting standard 1080i working, so you don't want to go there.

* You do NOT want to change resolution from Windows Settings until you have entered working 1080i timings in PowerStrip, successfully switched to 1080i mode from there and saved the timings. If you DO attempt to change resolution from Windows Settings before that, you may not be able to get 1080 without re-installing the ATI drivers again.

So, here's what I suggest:

1) Follow the steps 1-5 again, including uninstall and re-install of the ATI drivers and PowerStrip. I am sorry, I know it's a pain, but we could spend a long time with no progress if the drivers have already tried to do 1080i on their own. Uninstall PowerStrip first, then uninstall ATI drivers. Now re-install Catalyst 6.6 CCC and proceed through the steps as before.

2) Remember to set "Use centered timings" in CCC.

3) Add 720p and 1080p formats in CCC. The important thing is to make sure 1080p formats are added. I am really surprised if you say that 1080i30 formats were already added. It actually should be OK, though, as long as you don't switch to any of the 1080 formats from CCC until we have successfully switched in PowerStrip.

4) Once you get to step 6 and enter PowerStrip "custom resolutions" try the timings below and see if they should work. For each attempt, copy the two lines to the clipboard, paste using the middle icon in the lower right corner of the "custom resolutions" screen and click "Add new resolution". PowerStrip will warn you and ask for confirmation, just click OK/Yes to that. If one doesn't work, just hit ESC and try the next one:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,10,30,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,10,30,74250,2312

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,10,31,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,10,31,74250,2312

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,10,32,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,10,32,74250,2312

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,5,36,74250,776

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,5,36,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,5,36,74250,2312

WARNING: as much as I want to help you and as much as I want you to ty this out, I have to warn that you are doing this on your own risk and responsibility. Although rare, improper timings or improper use of PowerStrip can cause damage in severe cases. You know this, I just have to say it.

There are numerous other possible combinations, but try these first and let's see.

5) If your TV syncs to one of these and you get a working picture, just keep following the steps in the guide to save it.

The road doesn't stop here if you dont succeed, there are more things we can try. But if so, I would like you to download MonInfo from the Entech website, run it and post the results from it.

URL to MonInfo on Entech website

Good luck. Can't wait to hear your results.

Hi teenie,

Thanks for trying this out and posting the info. I must say I had hoped that one of those timings would, and I tend to believe that if they don't, there may be something else going on here.

I am still on the road and have only a couple minutes right now. I would suggest the following, but don't have time to describe them elaborately right now:

1) Try a few more combinations of timings based on the modelines I gave you:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,8,32,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,8,32,74250,2312

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,8,33,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,8,33,74250,2312

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,8,34,74250,9

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,88,44,148,1080,4,8,34,74250,2312

2) Try to bypass standard 1080i for now and go straight to custom resolutions. With some 5.x Catalyst versions I found that to work best. This is what I suggested and described to t10 in a previous post, you may take a look at that and try it out.

3) Try Catalyst 5.4 without PowerStrip. If that works we may be able to get a working modeline from it.

Once again, I am sorry I don't have time to give you more details right now. I WILL get back to you later this week.

Good luck.