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Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 394

post #11791 of 12297
Agreed. Sounds like a film of dust/dirt.
post #11792 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang68 View Post

Posted this in the Hitachi Tweaks Thread but wanted to get it over here too.

Got my TV in yesterday. After 16 months of waiting and then a 17 hour trip it was fine. In fact it was great. The colors are still dialed in on my primary input. Gray scale and everything. I know because I watched Avatar in BR and it rocked. Alignment is off a little but I need my remote to adjust it. That comes in next week. Then I can move around in the service menu and check things out. Incredible how good the set looks. I need to go back and find the sequence for the remote to enter service menu and all my other old tricks like raster control ect...The best thing is its here.

As an update I too agree about the black level. LED seems to do better than LCD but still can't match CRT. Now with that said isn't LED just LCD with a different way to backlight the screen?

Yes. When OLED finally gets to market they will be fully disclosive when they call a flat panel LED. For now calling it an LED is simply not telling the whole story.

Makes for great press, tho.

biggrin.gif

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 7/2/13 at 9:10am
post #11793 of 12297
Just thought I would show some after cleaning pics. Thanks for all the suggestions.

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post #11794 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Awesome!

cool.gif

b
post #11795 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1rabid1 View Post

Just thought I would show some after cleaning pics. Thanks for all the suggestions.

*

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Just wondering - why is the picture so dark at the top - especially the second one? You can see his face is partially darker near the top.

Thanks,
Dave
post #11796 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Due to the way the fresnel/lenticular optics of the rear-projection viewscreen are set up, they gather the light to be in a straight line out from the screen, rather than having it go every which way, which is how frosted screens work. And front projection. On those, it's the same in many directions, where the only direction that really counts is straight out from center, on the horizontal, re. front or side to side viewing.

Rear projected ceiling or floor projectors give much better light levels than front projection in high lighted areas like daylight, and the only cost is being directional rather than blunderbuss about it.

In reality one rarely notices this, while watching. If you look for it closely it's there, but if you don't it's really not.

That said, if you try to watch your screen from above centerline or below centerline the image will be dimmer because of this same phenomenon. But that's OK. This can be compensated for by angling the set down to where the sweet spot in the middle hits the viewer straight between the eyes. I have a 2x4 under the back of my 73" Mit for just that purpose. Before I installed that, since the couch was lower then the display the pic always became brighter just after I stood up than when I was sitting, because of the sweet spot being aimed above my head while I was sitting.


It also comes from the camera, from the pic being taken from fairly close up. If those pix had been taken from 20' - 30' away instead, using the zoom feature of the lens, the light levels would be much more even, with the top and bottom areas being not diminished nearly as much.

b
post #11797 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post



It also comes from the camera, from the pic being taken from fairly close up. If those pix had been taken from 20' - 30' away instead, using the zoom feature of the lens, the light levels would be much more even, with the top and bottom areas being not diminished nearly as much.

b

Yes in this case it is all the camera. I used the 5MP rear camera on a Excite 10. To get any kind of resolution I had to turn all the lights off which turns any low level light black. Look at the blue power light.
post #11798 of 12297
Thread Starter 
If you want to know the stem to stern answer to the problem in the title of the thread that talks about the Pioneer Elite and non-Elite CRT RPTVs that start with blue flash and brightness fluctuations and do other odd things, then finally start shutting down and eventually won't come back on again at all, go to YouTube and watch this video:

http://youtu.be/I_VerYFt6Y8

It contains the model numbers affected and tells you all you need to know to keep your set safe and how to fix it as well, if you're qualified. (And where to send it if you're not. And believe me, if there's any question as to whether you are qualified or not, you're not! But that's OK, as very few people are.)

tongue.gif

So rest assured, it can be fixed either way. Watch the video.


b
post #11799 of 12297
Finally! Two weeks from today, Bob will be at my home doing his magic on my Pioneer Elite Pro-710 HD. After a few years of reading and participating in this thread, it's finally happening. Deep Optix cleaning, shim op, overscan, and full cal - looking forward to it!

Dave
post #11800 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Moi aussi! I've been chomping at the bit on this one for a long time. Dave and I go way back.

If anyone in the Tempe / Phoenix area would like to jump on board, contact me immediately. The tail end of the tour butts up against the Labor Day weekend, so I can't extend the tour, but I can add other participants in before my target date with Dave. You just pay the extra for changing the departure flight date plus chip in and help Dave out on the overall travel expenses.

While on tours I do optics cleaning on all projection systems, especially CRT and DLP projection. Plus calibrations on all displays, and repairs whenever possible. Plus lifetime warranteed resoldering work on the infamous blue flash issue.

I also do fine tuning on your audio, making it stealth grade. And professional troubleshooting, if you have a problem and don't know where to turn. I'll get to the bottom of it.

So if your display or system have any of those needs, climb on board.

Contact me

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 8/16/13 at 10:15am
post #11801 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Finally! Two weeks from today, Bob will be at my home doing his magic on my Pioneer Elite Pro-710 HD. After a few years of reading and participating in this thread, it's finally happening. Deep Optix cleaning, shim op, overscan, and full cal - looking forward to it!

Dave

Congrats, your TV will be better than when new.

You can start getting ready by buying spryway (walmart), make sure you have the most absorbent paper towels, a brand new medium size paintbrush and a sharpie marker.

I'm sure Bob mentioned wooden Lego blocks for the shimming!!!

Have a great time.
post #11802 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post

Congrats, your TV will be better than when new.

You can start getting ready by buying spryway (walmart), make sure you have the most absorbent paper towels, a brand new medium size paintbrush and a sharpie marker.

I'm sure Bob mentioned wooden Lego blocks for the shimming!!!

Have a great time.

Thanks! As you probably know, from other threads we're in, I was seriously considering using a two piece front projection system to replace my TV. I was thinking of the DIY Silver Fire screen. However, the RPTV just works better for our family right now, as the plexiglass on the front is outstanding protection from my two boys. In 5 years or so, I'll reconsider, as the boys will be older. Also, even though a SF screen would be larger (which is exciting), I just don't know if it would be better - that was one thought that has weighed heavily on me recently as well.

Dave
post #11803 of 12297
Thread Starter 
No worries, Dave. When I am done with your display, you'll probably be able to sit much closer than you do now, increasing the actual image size that you will get to see from then on. Can't remember your exact model, but I sit 9' back from my 73" Mit. Typically I would sit 8' back from a fully dialed in 64", which is what I always did with my 65" Panny. How far back do you currently sit?

This way you'll get to stick with CRT tech, rather than being forced into today's fixed pixel modalities, some of which cannot even compare with CRT.

And don't worry about the Lego blocks, unless I forget my stock of 1" building blocks from Toys R Us...! (thanks for the reminder Leo!)

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 8/16/13 at 10:27am
post #11804 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

No worries, Dave. When I am done with your display, you'll probably be able to sit much closer than you do now, increasing the actual image size that you will get to see from then on. Can't remember your exact model, but I sit 9' back from my 73" Mit. Typically I would sit 8' back from a fully dialed in 64", which is what I always did with my 65" Panny. How far back do you currently sit?

This way you'll get to stick with CRT tech, rather than being forced into today's fixed pixel modalities, some of which cannot even compare with CRT.

And don't worry about the Lego blocks, unless I forget my stock of 1" building blocks from Toys R Us...! (thanks for the reminder Leo!)

b

We actually sit about 10'-11' from the display, but moving the couch and/or TV is not an option, so it will stay that way. One of my hesitations is that I have had this TV professionally calibrated and touched up several times over the last 5-7 years, so it will be interesting to see how much of a difference Bob's work will actually make to the picture. I'm hoping that the shim op and overscan stuff will at least help to make a sharper picture.

We have Sprayway and Glass Plus already, from the over the phone optics cleaning I did with you a couple of years ago. If we need anything else, just let me know.

Dave
post #11805 of 12297
Thread Starter 
The Pioneers have unique quirks that apply to no other brand of set, that took me literally years to figure out, since I would only do one every once in a while over the years. There are common denominators on all CRT RPTVs, but special ones with your set. I am confident that I will make a substantial difference in your viewing quality and that before we are thru you will be temped to come up with a single viewing chair that's easily movable which you can press into service whenever everyone else is away, for sitting 8' back and having that half-again bigger sized picture to immerse yourself in.

And still razor sharp.

wink.gif

b
post #11806 of 12297
9 days and counting - looking forward to it!

Dave
post #11807 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Pass the word, people - let's get another couple of participants for this all too short tour. Just one more participant cuts the travel expense in half. I elaborated on all the things I can do for viewers in local areas, in a post above

I can't wait too! I love the results and the grins when that is finally completed!

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 8/20/13 at 10:49am
post #11808 of 12297
I too am still using my 65" Toshiba RPTV but it is starting to have issues. The picture looks a bit wavy vertically when I first turn it on, so much so that it is difficult to read the tv guide or menu. This smooths out somewhat as it warms up but does not completely go away. It is still watchable though. What could be the cause of this? Is it a weak capacitor somewhere or some other components that have drifted out of spec? The set is about 15 years old and has many hours on it. I am a little afraid of opening it up to look as I don't want to electrocute myself. For movies I have a front projector and a 92" screen but I still use the old set for regular tv viewing.
post #11809 of 12297
Bob I live in Chandler AZ (bumps up to Tempe). I'm hemming and hawing on if its worth it to pay to have you look at my Pioneer 620. I use a DVDO VP 30 to reduce my overscan to 1% without your shim trick but am pondering the deep optics clean. As that has never been done. I do try to clean the upper lens about once a year should mention this TV gets very little use even though its in my main system ( bought brand new 11 years ago for 1,200 on a misprinted ad which they honored) but in 11 years set prolly has less than 4,000 hours total use on bulbs. Hence why I'm debating on if I should pay for what has to be a substantial cost for tweaking my calibration and deep optics clean considering the image looks so good. If you could PM me on what you estimate the deep clean and tweaking my already calibrated TV (I calibrated using AVIA and the DVDO but grayscale is beyond my grasp so would need that done). Anyway if the price is reasonable and you can fit me in on a Thursday or Friday I may be interested.
post #11810 of 12297
I know he will be at my place on Wednesday afternoon and Thursday, and was planning to leave on Friday...

Dave
post #11811 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by albert-canuck View Post

I too am still using my 65" Toshiba RPTV but it is starting to have issues. The picture looks a bit wavy vertically when I first turn it on, so much so that it is difficult to read the tv guide or menu. This smooths out somewhat as it warms up but does not completely go away. It is still watchable though. What could be the cause of this? Is it a weak capacitor somewhere or some other components that have drifted out of spec? The set is about 15 years old and has many hours on it. I am a little afraid of opening it up to look as I don't want to electrocute myself. For movies I have a front projector and a 92" screen but I still use the old set for regular tv viewing.

No mention of whether your set is HD or not, but at 15 years old, guess not.

My experience of Tosh's is that the green has its own memory bank - different from Mit, where the green is tied to the red and blue at all times and only red and blue can be separately tweaked. On Tosh's, each color can be separately tweaked.

Are your colors separated? Red or green edges, blue or yellow edges? Or is the writing wavy on all colors identically?

15 years is a long time to go without a retweaking of the geometry and convergence. They drift off, and should be tightened up a minimum of every few years, tho once a year would be best. Same with grayscale, as the individual color images darken over time at different rates. I suspect a good cleaning and calibration and you'd be amazed at what your set would then look like. Usually better than new, when I get thru with them.

BTW, what front projector do you have? Is it CRT, same vintage as your Toshiba? Those are my favorite!

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 8/22/13 at 5:52pm
post #11812 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

Bob I live in Chandler AZ (bumps up to Tempe). I'm hemming and hawing on if its worth it to pay to have you look at my Pioneer 620. I use a DVDO VP 30 to reduce my overscan to 1% without your shim trick but am pondering the deep optics clean. As that has never been done. I do try to clean the upper lens about once a year should mention this TV gets very little use even though its in my main system ( bought brand new 11 years ago for 1,200 on a misprinted ad which they honored) but in 11 years set prolly has less than 4,000 hours total use on bulbs. Hence why I'm debating on if I should pay for what has to be a substantial cost for tweaking my calibration and deep optics clean considering the image looks so good. If you could PM me on what you estimate the deep clean and tweaking my already calibrated TV (I calibrated using AVIA and the DVDO but grayscale is beyond my grasp so would need that done). Anyway if the price is reasonable and you can fit me in on a Thursday or Friday I may be interested.

As stated, Wednesday and Thursday are already taken. I would like to be back home Friday for the holiday weekend, but may be persuaded to make an exception by one day. I can probably squeeze in at least a deeper optics cleaning in if Dave's job does not take forever, plus possibly even an ISF calibration for the grayscale. But that's probably all the time we'll have.

Unfortunately we are within 1 week of showtime, and the flights could not be more expensive than they are right now if changed. I have to be at the airport just after noon on Friday. That said and if money is no object, the easier way is just to have me down a day or 2 early, to be done before Wednesday in time to bead down on Dave's job. Plane flight changes would probably cost the same either way, the 3 week window for cheap flying with Southwest is long past. Might be better to have me down on your own in a few weeks rather than climb onto this trip at this late date, so you could take advantage of the 3 week ahead of flight window for the best flight pricing.

If you want to see what you'll be missing if you don't have me down, I just put a bunch of pix I took of sets I have worked on of your vintage into a fresher spot on the Pioneer Elite PRO 510 Problem thread. Scroll down till you start seeing pretty pictures...

http://www.avsforum.com/t/402397/pioneer-elite-pro-510-problem/2880

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 8/22/13 at 8:42pm
post #11813 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

No mention of whether your set is HD or not, but at 15 years old, guess not.

My experience of Tosh's is that the green has its own memory bank - different from Mit, where the green is tied to the red and blue at all times and only red and blue can be separately tweaked. On Tosh's, each color can be separately tweaked.

Are your colors separated? Red or green edges, blue or yellow edges? Or is the writing wavy on all colors identically?

15 years is a long time to go without a retweaking of the geometry and convergence. They drift off, and should be tightened up a minimum of every few years, tho once a year would be best. Same with grayscale, as the individual color images darken over time at different rates. I suspect a good cleaning and calibration and you'd be amazed at what your set would then look like. Usually better than new, when I get thru with them.

BTW, what front projector do you have? Is it CRT, same vintage as your Toshiba? Those are my favorite!

b

The set can accept up to 1080i so it is not technically a HD tv but the picture used to be very good. I don't see any coloured edges, they are all wavy by the same amount and this decreases as the tv warms up. There is an autofocus feature that I use that adjusts each colour (I assume this means convergence?).

I have recently bought a new Mitsubishi HC5 to replace a used Infocus IN76. The Infocus went into the bedroom. I just got the 92" manual Elunevision screen today so I am going to have to play with it a bit. I still use the Toshiba RPTV for satellite TV.

What is involved in this cleaning? Is it dangerous for me to try? I am afraid of the stored charge in the tv, even after it has been unplugged for a while.eek.gif
post #11814 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Actually the very first HD available was 720p and 1080i, both of which are clinically 100% HD. An image does not have to be 1080p to be HD, tho a monitor has to have an ATSC tuner in it to be an actual HDTV. Otherwise it's an HD ready monitor.

Freezeframes of 1080i and p are identical to the naked eye and have exactly the same pixel resolution. The only difference is when motion becomes involved, and even that is almost unnoticeable and only present on certain types of scenes.

If yours can receive and display 1080i, then it is definitely an HD ready.


Tosh's auto convergence feature Touch Focus is no different from Magic Focus on Hitachi and Flash Focus on a Sony. None have anything to do with actual focusing, and none of those give you the best possible rendition; they are for people who are not adept at setting up and fine tuning their own convergence. As a tech at Vidikron once told me about their $20K add-on involving an actual video camera mounted on the projector for their version of what is actually auto convergence: "It only gets you most of the way there. You really need a calibrator on location at the projector to get it fully dialed in."


The cleaning process is not something anyone should just shoot from the hip on. Those plastic surfaces are very soft and fragile, and any damage done to them from inadequate materials or practices is instantaneous and permanent. The mirror is a front surface mirror with the actual reflective surface on the front of the glass, not the back. Without adequate coaching or training, permanent damage could happen to your set almost immediately upon your setting out to do it.

I do phone coaching on such things, have been doing phone sessions on such things for more than 10 years. When I revealed how critical optics cleaning was to the look of HD - the look of any projection device, HD or not, actually, since my methods started on regular CRT big screens, long before HD - only one other calibrator was doing it, and he owned telescopes so he knew how important it was to clarity and resultant light levels, where every little bit counts. He was the only one besides me, and he only worked on Mitsubishis, which don't require the deeper optics cleaning, which nobody at all was doing before I started it. I pretty much wrote the book on optics cleaning for CRT RPTVs, and this has now carried on to DLPs, as all projection modalities will need optics cleaning sooner or later.

There is no high voltage to worry about if you do it my way. I am available if you want to do it right, with no damage or danger. You know how to find me.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 8/22/13 at 7:15pm
post #11815 of 12297
No problem Bob. Had no idea how your schedule was. Maybe next time but in the meantime keep up the good fight and prepare for our Hot Hot Hot weather next week.
post #11816 of 12297
Thanks for the advice Bob, I am definitely going to have to give this some thought.
post #11817 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

No problem Bob. Had no idea how your schedule was. Maybe next time but in the meantime keep up the good fight and prepare for our Hot Hot Hot weather next week.

Oh, you mean the 102 that's presently forecast? Yeah, that's a little warm for a California boy, may have to retreat to inside for most of the trip...

Yeah, Dave had tried to find compadres and had found no takers, so I had to book it pretty tightly, timewise. If any available spare time shows up once the job has been going for a while I'll let you know. Would surely like to do something to improve your viewing pleasure while I am there.
Let's see if we can squeeze out maybe half a day...

Keep my cell phone number handy and send me your contact info JIC -

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 8/22/13 at 8:51pm
post #11818 of 12297
Bob I sent you a PM just in case.
post #11819 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Got it. We'll be in touch -

b
post #11820 of 12297
What RPTV would be good to pick used as an upgrade to my Standard Definition Pioneer SD-P50A5-K? 50" 4:3 The convergence is off by about an 1". It happened suddenly but it also have been popping off but would power back up when I cycled power. Since I live in Dallas/Ft. Worth and see working condition RPTV's for $50-$350 perhaps I should get an HDTV. Maybe an Elite 610? or 65" Mitsubishi? Is there a 73"?

Also is this something I could fix with a $20 part and my soldering iron? I'm not great but have connected wires.

I have a MITSU WS55819 in my media room (I've mentioned that in this thread before). My Pioneer is in the family room.

this thread has been helping me avoid the temptation of getting a plasma or 4K set and the big price tag that comes with it.
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