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Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 397

post #11881 of 12297
I was reading some info from awhile back in this thread regarding lens flare and the brands that fared the worst were mentioned but I couldn't find info on which ones were the best at minimizing flares.

If you had to give a top three for minimal flaring, would Samsung be on the list?
post #11882 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Would you enlighten us as to exactly what lens flare is?

Nearest I can figure is that there are 28 optical surfaces in there, all of which face each other and can cause internal reflections. Actually 34, if you count the actual CRT faces and the rears of the coolant cover lenses that face them thru the coolant.

Only on the original Advents have I seen internal coatings being used to cut down on the internal reflections of the lenses, like they do on fine low-light optics like telescopes and binoculars, where not having the lenses internally coated severely compromises night vision. I have one very nice set of binocs that I simply won't take to a concert because of this. They are powerful, precise and exact and would be excellent for bird watching, but are good for daytime only. The afterimages during concerts are just totally distracting, and that's all caused by internal reflections.

I don't expect any brands of CRT RPTV to have ever used that internal coating technology.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/17/13 at 9:55am
post #11883 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Rigjht. And internal reflections. Some brands are worse than others about making sure the optical cavity remains flat, non-reflective black, like the inside of a classic bellows/accordion camera. Which is lined in black felt, specifically applied there for internal reflection dampening and neutralization.


Hitachi and Pioneer are 2 of the worst offenders. Both brands leave lots of bare metal exposed. What brand is yours?


I was just inside a Mit HDready set of lenses because of penetration of the cleaning liquid, and not only was the deepest most lens all glass, but one of the plastic lenses was coated on one side!


But usually there is no coating, so you also have lots of internal reflection between lenses, and there are 4 lenses per lens barrel. 24 surfaces, most of them totally uncoated. Nobody coats all their lenses in there like they should, that I know of. It would be too costly, but might eliminate lens flare completely, if the optical cavity has also been lined with black felt. (Duvetyne is good for movie theaters, but only goes so far with CRT RPTVs...)



b


It seems I misunderstood what you were saying here. At first I thought you were talking about the plastic lens barrels being a flat non reflective black but It looks like your actually talking about the entire compartment where the mirror and guns are.

I read an article awhile back about removing the shine from the black plastic lens barrels to help with lens flare but it's a lot of work and involves a complete dissassembly of the lens stacks.

You'd think if would have been common sense to not use shiny black plastic to encase the lenses but I suppose they probably didn't care at all about internal reflections as long as they could move tv's.
post #11884 of 12297
Thread Starter 
I suspect you're absolutely right.

rolleyes.gif

b
post #11885 of 12297
I was told to post this here as it might do better than in it's own thread, so here goes...

I have inhereted a 51" Toshiba 51H84 rear projection TV from my parents since they were able to upgrade to a bigger, badder, high speed, low drag TV.

Upon playing games and watching TV and movies, I have noticed a few things
  1. The edges of the image are distorted. It seems kind of like a pincushion effect, mainly on the corners.
  2. The edges of my picture seem to have a little white glowing edge
  3. The picture does not stretch to the edge of the screen


Here is a picture of what my convergence looks like. I think I have everything lined up as best as I can, but you can see how the whole thing looks like it's bulging out in the center. The four edges seem to be stretched a bit.


This is actually what the green channel looks like when I load factory default. As you can see, not much better. Why would it come from the factory like this???


Here is what the corners look like up close. the red and blue get the worst of the warped/skewed effect.


This is what I'm talking about by the glowing edge. Not sure if this is fixable. If not, oh well.

And In all of the images you can see how much edge space is on either side of the picture. In fact, the picture is slightly offset so even if I were to stretch it, it wouldn't meet up at the edges uniformly.

So in doing whatever I could to try to fix the issue, I went into the TV menu and did the + convergence and that was really ineffective in fixing anything. So I dug deeper and went into the service menu and found the ever so amazing 56 point conversion screen which helped quite a bit but made me realize just how bad the pincushioning is. So I did me some more googling and found that people use some kind of convergence grid template to help get the convergence just right.

I am unsuccessful in finding a convergence grid for my TV frown.gif I've seen that it's possible to make them with string but I'm really not sure how to do that... I'm guessing I just find the center points, and put a new string at the proper intervals (38.5mm vert, 89.6mm horz) and line up to that; but before I do that I'd like confirmation that that is the correct way to go about it, and if that's the case, what do I do if the center point on the 56 point convergence grid doesn't line up with the string's center point?

I also decided to open the sucker up and clean the projectors (holy crap the difference it made!!!!) and play with the screen VR knobs to help get the picture in focus (played a bit too much with the focus VR knobs and now my whites are a little pink, but I can fix that no problem).

My primary concern is the slight warping around the edges. I guess my question here is, does it sound like a convergence issue that can be fixed through the service menu, or is it something that would involve a new convergence chip (which is not something I'm comfortable with doing myself)? The image going to the edge of the screen and the white halo/glow at the very left and right edge is very minimal and not noticeable.

Someone suggested aligning the geometry similarly to the way the convergence is adjusted, but I read forward and backward through the service manual and it doesn't mention anything about a geometry correction screen, and Google was no help either. From what I can read and find on Google, the geometry is fixed via the convergence grid screen. It looks like I'm going to have to make my own grid overlay with tape and string and manually straighten every point out. A bit of a daunting task but I'm not sure of any other way unless someone more experienced is able to shine some light.

We don't have any service techs where I live (smalllllll town) so I'm stuck with doing this myself.
post #11886 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Laz View Post

I am unsuccessful in finding a convergence grid for my TV frown.gif I've seen that it's possible to make them with string but I'm really not sure how to do that... I'm guessing I just find the center points, and put a new string at the proper intervals (38.5mm vert, 89.6mm horz) and line up to that; but before I do that I'd like confirmation that that is the correct way to go about it, and if that's the case, what do I do if the center point on the 56 point convergence grid doesn't line up with the string's center point?

Not hard, just (as with most things) tedious:

 

 

Center points are adjusted with "raster position." Unfortunately, I speak Hitachi, so you'll need to find some Toshiba help.

Bob should be here any minute now.

;)

post #11887 of 12297
The time has finally come to retire my beloved old Hitachi 57S700 to the basement tomorrow, it has served me well for 10+ trouble free years. I had it professionally calibrated 6 years ago and it has retained excellent black level and the colors still look very good. It has lost some sharpness, no doubt the optics need cleaning along with some tuning up. I plan on keeping it and will probably give Mr. Bob a call for advice on cleaning the optics. From reviewing several of the Hitachi threads I've found it looks to be a job I could manage with a little hand holding. I'm fairly handy, is removing the screen to access the innards a simple job? Anyway, there is no way I could just dump this set, it will still get a lot of use in its new location.
post #11888 of 12297
Thread Starter 
I will be there when you are ready. Who calibrated it 6 years ago? Sounds like he did a great job.

There are at least 5 huge Hitachi threads on the AVS, all started and manned by Hitachi owners. I am sure one of them will jump in and get you going on whatever it takes to get into your model of Hitachi.

wink.gif

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/19/13 at 11:51pm
post #11889 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Mr. Laz -

All CRT RPTVs required setting up from the ground up, yours is no exception. We start with the green and get it just right, then converge the red to it, then the blue to either the red or green. I prefer converging the blue to the red myself, so the red has to be completely dialed in before I can start the blue.

The pincushioning you see may be remedied by finding and altering the pincushioning registers in your service menu.

Whatever you do, if you go into the sm, be sure and write down the starting value of each and every register you intend to change. And if you decide you want to refocus the lenses - I recommend the Cantilever Technique, look it up on my YouTube channel - be sure to mark where the movable vs. the unmovable parts of each lens are, so you can always get back to where you started in case you get in over your head or paint yourself into a corner. And if you do change their position to get better focusing, be prepared to do your convergence all over again on whichever color you altered. Changing the optical focus on a given color image alters its size.

The feathering you see at the edges is endemic to the CRT RPTV genre, they simply didn't design enough convergence memory into the sets to get it perfect. On $20,000 and above ceiling CRT projectors yes. On $5,000-7,000 CRT RPTVs, no. So you just gotta average the convergence error out there - make it as innocuous as possible out there at the edges and keep that error completely out of the center of your pic, where we actually watch all the action.

If your image does not go all the way out to where it should, chances are someone altered the width and height registers in your service menu, most likely to get rid of the overscan. Resizing affects the efficacy of your picture, always, whenever you do it in the service menu. Getting them back to where the black at the edges disappears might also remedy your pincushioning error.

All these knowledges were available to you before you entered the service menu, some by calling me, others by asking here on threads like this. Doing a calibration on a set like this is not child's play, it has always been meant to be done by a professional, not an amateur. Only very dedicated DIYers, who are unstoppably diligent and don't mind long, extensive learning curves, ever master this stuff. The rest let people like me do it.

You have the Screen and Focus VRs mixed up with each other, now costing you dearly in your picture. The Screens are for getting the colorations right, the Focus is for crispening up the images on the CRT faces. From your description, you got them backwards. The Screens are the most critical, and you have now hosed the exact position they came to you in, which was very carefully set at the factory, to very tight specs. I am available on the phone if you want to get it back to where it should be. Or for the full monty on your entire set if you want to fly me out to wherever you are.

wink.gif

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/20/13 at 8:26am
post #11890 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I will be there when you are ready. Who calibrated it 6 years ago? Sounds like he did a great job.

There are at least 5 huge Hitachi threads on the AVS, all started and manned by Hitachi owners. I am sure one of them will jump in and get you going on whatever it takes to get into your model of Hitachi.

wink.gif

b

Doug Weil with Clearly Resolved did the calibration, my only regret was not calling him sooner. I'll be back when I'm ready to start cleaning, thanks!
post #11891 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Doug is a great guy, I calibrated his Panasonic before he decided to don the mantle of calibrator. He was already on the path before I got there the first time, showed me how to get into the service menu on Panasonics, which I had not done yet. The rest is history, he has created a great reputation for himself, we still talk occasionally about this stuff.

wink.gif

b
post #11892 of 12297
Sorry for this... but I found this amusing and thought I would share... Bob, you'll love this...
This "Magnavox" is having identity and size issues me thinks... lol. How dare they call this poor baby that! That's like calling a Porsche a Yugo for crying out loud!

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/zip/4078619480.html

excerpt (for when the posting is deleted... pictured is a Pioneer Elite 5x0 looks like): " Free 55" Magnavox projection tv"
Edited by jgruessing68 - 9/20/13 at 8:47pm
post #11893 of 12297
Thread Starter 
OMG! These people are amazing! I can't believe the luck of whoever's going to get this set!

eek.gif

b
post #11894 of 12297
hi .

i had a problem with my toshiba rptv (4:3) it had a black flickering issue , the screen would start flickering abnormally sometimes black lines, blobs or the whole screen would go black. today i did a QA02 reset and it solved the problem but unfortunately my geometry is like a fish eye now which seems impossible to fix no matter what i change in the service and designer menu but i did get to the point where it is watchable. secondly my ps3 on component input is now showing 16:9 with black sidebars whereas before the reset it was full screen at 1080i.
i am very sick so dint tweak around that much also my thinking power is alot down too.

Help anyone ?
post #11895 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Tosh owners should never do a QA02 Reset unless they are ready to start completely from scratch, as this reset vaporizes all the hard work done by the factory and anyone else who has done any calibration work on the set after that. Your set now has a completely clean slate, which is not necessarily a good thing. A ton of hard work went up in smoke instantly, after you hit that Reset command. Instantly. Vaporized. Work gone. Perhaps that could not be helped and was necessary to make your set's problems disappear, but it has come at great cost to you. The first thing I would have advised had you contacted me - or even if you had just put out here on this thread that you were contemplating such a move - would have been to write down the value of each and every register in both regular and designer modes. Would have taken you a whlie, but you'd be a lot better off than you are now.

I am available if you want to do some phone coaching. Or fly me in. I have set up many brands and models of CRT RPTV from scratch. When I get thru with your set it will look bettter than new, and if you want me to do overscan reduction via service menu, that can be part of the new setup without any extra charges for it, which usually would apply. Or if eligible, the overscan reduction can be done via the shimming op instead. Both techniques involve the service menu, which since it is now a blank slate, can just as easily be set up for overscan as for underscan.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/27/13 at 9:55am
post #11896 of 12297

The time has come for me to upgrade to a larger TV.  I will be getting rid of my Sony KP-57WS510 and thought I would post here before I list everywhere.  Shoot me a PM if interested.  Fantastic condition, gets recalibrated by myself once per year, optics cleaning twice per year and has been babied its entire life.  Only reason I'm upgrading is because I want something bigger....65" or more.

post #11897 of 12297
Thank you mr.bob ... i did write down all the settings and all of them match the tv looks great but anamorphic scenes are a little pinched from the left side ... i just want to know how to fix the aspect ratio of component on 1080i where it was full screen before now its 16:9
post #11898 of 12297
Thread Starter 
We'd have to explore the abbreviations to see what could be a correct match.

As I recall, the points are not labeled on Toshiba as to the horizontal and vertical values of each point. Even if they were, nobody usually writes those values down, so matching them up may be impossible. You may need a very highly intuitive person to get that part of it back where it was before.

b
post #11899 of 12297
Well i did manage to get everything fixed up at the cost of completely ruining my ntsc inputs that is if i play a dvd the convergence and geometry is completely wasted but the rest of the tv looks better then new..... is there anyway i can fix that with causing trouble to other inputs .
And sadly i cant do deep optics cleaning due to the screws being rusted and i guess melted even the tech cudnt open them frown.gif
post #11900 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Guess you didn't luck out. There's still merit in keeping your set, or you could move on from that one. Pioneer Elite CRT sets are being given away these days, when you are at the right place at the right time. You'll probably find one at a very decent cost in your neighborhood. A fraction of what they cost new. Even at several hundred, if their owners took care of them properly - and most Elite owners did - they are still a gold mine once cleaned and calibrated.

b
post #11901 of 12297

I wish I would have seen this thread a few years ago before I practically gave my 53" Pioneer Elite away.

It wasn't professionally calibrated, but I was much more happy with the picture from my Mitsubishi HC6500 projector and a 102" Wilsonart laminate screen.

post #11902 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Get another 53" Elite! Or go for the gusto and get a 64". They are still being given away, get one back to replace yours! I'll trick it out for you like you would not believe. See my YouTube videos to see how much dynamic punch Terry Whitener's 720 still has, even now. Just like when new. That video of Grindle from Boewolf was shot in the daytime!

cool.gif

b
post #11903 of 12297
Took the back off and cleaned the lenses / dusted out my Hitachi Director's Series 65XWX20B which I bought back in maybe 2004 new ..

Recalibrated as well ..

.. yes, it's a monster, but I built an entertainment center around it and for all practical purposes, it appears to be a flat screen TV mounted in a cabinet ..

Even at 1080i max and having to use a HDMI to DVI adapter, it still flat out throws a spectacular picture with BD or HD CATV ..

If it eventually craps out on me, I've left instructions to just go ahead and bury me in it ..
post #11904 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Just the way I feel about mine! Throw me into my grave with it!

If your deeper optics need cleaning, you're only getting half the clarity you should be getting, so don't let that question go unanswered! Hitachi owners here may be able to let you know whether their set of your model number needed that extra service or not. Mit HDready is the only brand I am 100% sure never needs the deeper optics cleaning because of being sealed properly, lens barrel to CRT coolant cover.

cool.gif

b
post #11905 of 12297

Hi Bob,

Just dropping a note to let you know your diagnosis worked. I resoldered the power board on my 710 and hasn't skipped a beat in a year now. Thanks! P.S. if your'e in planning a trip to Orange County, CA. anytime let me know I'll try to kick in for the trip.

post #11906 of 12297
I have a Toshiba 57H83 that has shown some weird indications a couple of times now. The picture will be fine and the all of a sudden it will look like someone has grabbed it from inside the screen and pulled it. so that the sides of the picture are concaved in like an hourglass effect. The colors get all distorted and almost like you can make out the individual colors from the guns. After about 2-3 minutes like that the picture got even worse and I could hear pops coming through the speakers. All other sound from the show that I was watching at the time went away. I flipped through multiple channels with no effect just to make sure that it wasn't the DirecTV. Finally I turned the TV off and back on with everything returning to normal.

Any ideas of what might cause this?
post #11907 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nucleartiger View Post

I have a Toshiba 57H83 that has shown some weird indications a couple of times now. The picture will be fine and the all of a sudden it will look like someone has grabbed it from inside the screen and pulled it. so that the sides of the picture are concaved in like an hourglass effect. The colors get all distorted and almost like you can make out the individual colors from the guns. After about 2-3 minutes like that the picture got even worse and I could hear pops coming through the speakers. All other sound from the show that I was watching at the time went away. I flipped through multiple channels with no effect just to make sure that it wasn't the DirecTV. Finally I turned the TV off and back on with everything returning to normal.

Any ideas of what might cause this?
I don't know about the pops, but my Sony did the hourglass thing and separated colors. I posted pics somewhere in this thread. Would think yours is almost certainly the convergence chips going bad, and maybe taking some fuses with it. I think I had two bad pico fuses with the bad chips.

Mine had separated colors, then one time I turned it off then turned it on, and then it started doing the hourglass thing too, so I didn't know if they were due to the same problem. Fixed with new chips and fuses.
post #11908 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nucleartiger View Post

I have a Toshiba 57H83 that has shown some weird indications a couple of times now. The picture will be fine and the all of a sudden it will look like someone has grabbed it from inside the screen and pulled it. so that the sides of the picture are concaved in like an hourglass effect. The colors get all distorted and almost like you can make out the individual colors from the guns. After about 2-3 minutes like that the picture got even worse and I could hear pops coming through the speakers. All other sound from the show that I was watching at the time went away. I flipped through multiple channels with no effect just to make sure that it wasn't the DirecTV. Finally I turned the TV off and back on with everything returning to normal.

Any ideas of what might cause this?

When this happens on Mits's - and it does, quite often - it's cold solder joints at the legs of the ICs, where they go thru their holes in the board. If caught early the ICs can be saved via resoldering those legs, but if it has been run for a while in its bad condition, the ICs get heavily stressed, eventually croak, and ultimately have to be replaced. Which also involves a new convergence operation afterwards and another re-tightening up after the first 100 hours.

DK about Tosh's on this issue, but it's worth a try. Otherwise, as stated IC replacement is the next step.
post #11909 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoltv View Post

Hi Bob,
Just dropping a note to let you know your diagnosis worked. I resoldered the power board on my 710 and hasn't skipped a beat in a year now. Thanks! P.S. if your'e in planning a trip to Orange County, CA. anytime let me know I'll try to kick in for the trip.

Welcome! Glad you could make it work for you. I hope you followed ALL my advice and resoldered everything in there that directly connects to anything else electronically, aside from what had not already been resoldered already, before the unit left the factory! If not you'll be facing the same thing again, and your set has now been made more vulnerable to the more advanced cold solder joints, which can actually cause damage to your set downline. Which means the next time you have any intermittent connection problems, chances are they will result in major, much more expensive problems rather than minor, innocuous ones.

With very few exceptions, the ENTIRE PS board needs to be resoldered, meaning 99% of the connections on it. If you want more info on this, check out my YouTube video on this situation:

http://youtu.be/I_VerYFt6Y8

I was just in SD and LA recently, would love to have come to OC and done my magic on your set. Please send me your contact info and I'll flag your entry in my customer book for a visit next time I am around. Or send me a plane ticket and let's get busy!

wink.gif

b
post #11910 of 12297
IN reading online I have seen some mentions about the Flyback Transformer causing this same type of issue. Does that sound right to you? What kind of cost am I looking at for repairs if it is the transformer and how much would it be approximately if it is the ICs?

Thanks
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