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Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 399

post #11941 of 12301
After removing the screen I removed the lenses, one by one, did not disassemble, cleaned the concave lens on the top of the CRT, cleaned the back side of the lens and reassembled. Then cleaned the outer lens and the mirror, re-assembled and tried it out.
I used paper towel (gently), not sure what brand but it did leave a bit of lint behind. I used a foaming automotive glass cleaner made by a company called Stoner. It is supposedly streak free with no soaps or solvents which leave a residue. Then I went over them with a window cleaning cloth, the type which has a yellow one for using wet and a blue one for drying and polishing. I did not use the yellow, only the blue to remove the lint and remove any residual cleaner. Looked them over with a flashlight for streaks, dirt or scratches, went over the mirror with the blue cloth (it wasn't very dirty) then re-assembled.
post #11942 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Good job.

Next time - to make sure you can continue doing your optics cleaning op over and over and over again every year without fail and without damage - I would caution you that these are plastic lenses, not glass, and as such any damage you might do to them by accident is instantaneous and permanent. Anybody doing this needs to avoid any cleaner containing ammonia, and never to go back and forth with the wipe on any plastic surface; to do one wipe only at a time, and in a way that does not grind in any of the grit into that soft plastic.

And before you do any of that, to allow your cleaning liquid/foam, whatever it is, to sink in and suspend the gritty particulates in liquid for 15 seconds before attempting to move or remove any of that grit. And to do that in a way that does not invade and fog up the deeper lenses, the ones inside the lens barrel.

I know the mirror never seems to be very dirty at first glance. To see how dirty your mirror actually is - in its own way it's just as dirty as your lenses, believe me - take a strong flashlight and shine it at a steep angle to the mirror while your viewing room is darkened. Then put a little mark on it with the back of one of your finger knuckles and see if that little spot is not blacker than the surrounding area. This won't apply when you've already used the blue cloth, but it works like a charm on mirrors that have not been touched in 5-10 years.

Sounds like you probably knew all that already, so congrats! Good job -

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 10/21/13 at 12:36pm
post #11943 of 12301
On post # 11892, there is a pioneer set mentioned that looks almost to exactly like a set I am in line to inherit once they upgrade, but its just a Pioneer Elite PRO-200 model (year 2000~2001?)

Man it is such a basket case, I am hesitant about taking it and hauling it in, and instead have contemplated letting the store delivery people who bring the next one dispose of it, if they will for free. Even when it was brand new and adjusted to the limits, there was so much blue in the picture it was almost as if the coolant in that tube was contaminated.

After a while the owner called the service center and they came out, and pretty much told them that the tv in particular was "designed for really huge rooms and you have to sit a good ways back from it to view it comfortably"...

The convergence adjustment is phoned in too, its a 9 point system and you always have EXTREME convergence error, if you manage to get it lined up at one point, its off somewhere else on the other side. My RCA's that are a couple years newer blow it away, at least you can read white letters on mine lol!

It seriously looks like the convergence is blown on it, but its not. There's something about it that makes it desirable still, I wonder if it can be adjusted in the service menu to be better than it is now. I will not touch it until its mine, due to I know what the thing cost back then and I am not about to be the one responsible for killing it while its still being utilized.

If not, heck I may still decide to take it and pull its chassis box and sneak another type into it and set it up, its prettier than any piece of wood furniture I own currently lol! I'd have something akin to a AC Cobra kit car built on a miata chassis, but it would be guaranteed to put out a better display than it does now.
post #11944 of 12301
I could be mistaken, but I believe that set will not display HD as it is NTSC only. It did however have a different aspect ratio of 16:10.7.
post #11945 of 12301
Yeah, thats it. Its aspect ratio and the way it applies it, is unusual to say the least.

The lack of the atsc tuner is the primary reason its gonna be replaced in favor of something new. I would have already got something else myself, as its just a horrible excuse display-wise for a pioneer elite product.

I am not cutting at anybody, I am just giving my personal account with one. If the convergence could be brought closer to spec than the menu allows, it could be a nice set... although the convergence adjustment is just one of the substandard "features" this set employees. Consumers should have expected/demanded more from a set of this caliber when purchasing.
post #11946 of 12301
Thread Starter 
It is definitely an SD set, meaning it's a lot older than 2003. Pioneer started in 1999 with the 700 as its first HD set, and went on to the 510/610/710 series, which did much better. The 700 was really not quite ready for prime time, just like the initial Mit model year of their first HD set. Any drawbacks you see in it when comparing your 200 to present tech are not really fair when the set is probably 15 year old technology. In those days it WAS top of the line!

Yes you can do a whole lot better in the service menu of this set than the User Menu on the convergence. And also on the grayscale, which seems to have been slewed to the blue horribly, from your account. I have never seen a Pioneer have contaminated coolant - or as I call it, cooties in the coolant. That's good, because changing it out would be convoluted to do, or just plain expensive to have someone else do.

Yes these sets were a hybrid between the old 4x3 aspect ratio and the new 16x9 aspect ratio, which had not even arrived yet. At the time, nobody had this hybrid aspect ratio but Pioneer, everything else was still 4x3. (As far as aspect ratio goes, the important thing is that a circle on your screen always remain a circle and not an oval.)

The main way you'll improve your picture tho, is with optics cleaning. Your set will need both the regular and the deeper optics cleaning, after which it will have a sizzling clean, crystal clear light path, making your set look like new again. Sparkling. (My calibration process is called The Sparkle Process, here locally, and has been since before HD.)

I have worked with these fabulous sets since long before HD, and I can tell you how good they can look, even without being HD, with the proper attention. No they don't have the fabulous point system that the newer CRT HD sets had, but in service menu you can still improve that convergence markedly over your present User crosshairs status.

Contact me if you want to get your optics cleaned safely and thoroughly, so you don't accidentally step on any landmines in there. And if you want the full monty on getting it to look its best, much of which can be done over the phone.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 10/24/13 at 12:20pm
post #11947 of 12301
Thanks Mr. Bob, Ill get back with you on that when I finally get that PRO-200 set. Id like to keep it just for the fancy cabinet lol! If it works good too, bonus!



....In the meantime, I am thinking about checking these two sets out. I am just unsure if the 80" is one of the "Diamond series 9 inch lens" models. They are both mitsubishi, and I am almost sure the 65" is one of these coveted sets. The 80" would be a nice rptv too, but Ill have to see them both in person to make a final decision.

65" mits: http://greenville.craigslist.org/ele/4093137433.html

80" mits: http://knoxville.craigslist.org/ele/4127926250.html

I also need to get my two thomson/rca ptk195 sets squared away too... I have a few sets to deal with here already so Idk why i am looking for more....lol! I am addicted to old rptv's i guess.
Edited by PTKCTC - 10/24/13 at 4:34pm
post #11948 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Hard to know much when no model number is given. The first is definitely HD, the second is qustionable as to whether it is or not. Many HD sets that first year were 4x3, tho.

That's about all we know, aside from what they want for them and that they appear to work OK. Does not say anything about usage hours, screenburn, whether the HD set is the first gen or one of those after...

We do know that anything above 65" in their HD sets used 9" guns and mylar mirrors, tho. Later they added 9" guns to a select set of newly created model numbers in their 65" gun line, which were actually brighter than the 73"s due to use of glass mirrors rather than the mylar ones used in the 73" size. With the same sized gun as the 73", the smaller 65" screen would also deliver a brighter picture than a bigger screen on the same sized gun, as increasing the screen area diminishes the delivered light level by the same amount. Inverse proportion.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 10/24/13 at 8:23pm
post #11949 of 12301
Cool, I may travel around this weekend and check them out. I live about equal distances from each set, so I may make a weekend out of it. Ill keep the 65" in mind first, its more along my budget and its honestly all I could haul back w/o renting a uhaul truck.

I may just call about the 80" and get the model number and look it up here and see what people have to say about it. I like really big displays myself, and the biggest I have now is a 73" toshiba dlp set from 2008. The thing is, I keep hearing about the quality and precision of the Mitsubishi HD Diamond line CRT-based rptv's, and I want one now more than ever!
post #11950 of 12301
Thread Starter 
If the 65" is a WS 65813 or 815 or 817, it will have the 9" guns. With HD having taken over the market now, I would stay away from any 4x3 set, myself. Eventually if you watch 16x9 HD long enough you will get visible 16x9 screenburn on the 4x3 set whenever you have an all white 4x3 image. You'll get top/bottom black bars burn, meaning the center area will be dimmer than the t/b areas. Same thing happens on the 9" guns of the 16x9 sets, all of which use 4x3 HD grade guns, but you can't see it.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 10/27/13 at 6:22pm
post #11951 of 12301
Original post December 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnd393 View Post

I'm about to buy another WS-65869. I'm just gonna bring home the chassis/lightbox assembly.
JohnD

The time has come to do the transplant. My tv has a start up, continuous blinking LED, problem. Any power glitch could take it out. It would start up ok after being unplugged for 24-48 hours. I put it on a 1000VA computer UPS and got almost 2 trouble free years. Now the UPS batteries have died.

I swapped out the complete chassis/tube/lens assembly. I expected to have some serious convergence errors but it was pretty close. I have a soft picture with a slight red tint that is worse on the right side. The colors just don't look right. I tried touching up the focus but made little improvement. User picture adjustments helped a little. Other than focus, I've not messed with any service adjustments yet. I'm mostly studying the service manual,
I thought the tubes and lenses were clear but this red being more pronounced to the right make e think I missed something.

If all else fails i can put the other chassis back in. It's had it's 48 hours unplugged now. I'll have to fix the UPS first.
post #11952 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Fixing a UPS is usually a breeze. They always use small 12v batteries like what's used in a motorcycle and such batteries are cheap, maybe $23 on Amazon. From what I have seen, that's all that ever really seems to go out. Just be sure to open it up first to nail which model of battery to get.

BTW, if you did not get the Focus Block off of the new one and keep it with the rest of the light box from the new one, there will most likely be a great deal of difference between the settings of one focus block vs. the settings of the other. I would definitely try to keep the new light box paired up accurately with the new focus block, ideally never disco'ing any of the wires going to the block from the light box itself. That way you can't get it hooked up wrong, which is always possible when disco'd if you did not keep track of everything with absolute fidelity.

The rest of the wiring going to the shell is just passive switches and the speakers, all of which are totally interchangeable. Not the focus block, it is a high precision set of HV settings going directly to the guns themselves.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 10/27/13 at 6:33pm
post #11953 of 12301
My manual refer to it as the Light Box assembly. It's everything but the speakers. I kept the control panel with it because it was easy to do.

I had to buy batteries for the UPS in the first place. This one needed 24V. I had picked up several UPS's all needing batteries. I think I paid about $55 for the two 12v 12AH batteries. I tried each of the batteries in a smaller UPS that used one 12v battery. Neither could supply power more than a few seconds. Thought they would last longer.

Focus adjustments are a little harder for me cus of my near sited eyes. When I'm in position to make the adjustment, I'm not the right distance from the image to best see the finest detail. I just have to find a way that works best for me.

GEDC0733.JPG 318k .JPG file GEDC0735.JPG 208k .JPG file
post #11954 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Yes, on the Mit's they always make sure the focus block is attached to the light box itself, so you can't leave it behind. Not so on other brands. Your focus block Screen settings should be just fine.

Your second pic shows the typical pinkishness of all Mit factory CRT grayscales, I've been seeing it for years on Mit's. If you get the set's grayscale realigned to the correct color of gray with an ISF grade calibration, you won't be bothered by the screen being more pink on one side than the other. When the whole screen is too pink, like it is in your pic, that's when you get enmeshed in its being more pink on one side than the other. Not when it's all correct and there is no overabundance of red in the grayscale, like there is now.

For optical focusing I always use reading glasses and get up close and personal with the screen, just a foot or 2 away from it. I never do it from regular viewing distance. However I always do it on the view screen, not the internal CRT screens. That way I can watch for the shadows between the actual scanlines that form the grid lines in 480, which I find to be the most challenging pattern for focusing and therefore the most rewarding when you finally get it right. Much better than using 1080, which was designed to hide such shadows and make them far harder to see than they are on 480. Getting the 480 correct on optical focusing makes the 1080 sizzle and allows even 1080's scanlines to be visible at normal viewing distance under the appropriate conditions.

My video on the Cantilever Technique might help you. It's on my YouTube channel, MrBobBigScreen. Search out Super Tightening the Optical Focus.

http://youtu.be/8yTrU6Mb1tg

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 10/29/13 at 8:42am
post #11955 of 12301
Thank you Mr Bob
I set my Dish box to 480p and put on a crosshatch pattern from the hdnet test pattern that are saved on the DVR. I couldn't see scan lines on the crosshatch lines, but with the red & blue lens covered I could see them on a faint green background. I was able to adj the electrostatic focus to optimize those faint background scan lines. Maybe it's not best to focus on those dim lines, but that I did see scan lines is encouraging.
post #11956 of 12301
Thread Starter 
You have to electrostatically focus on medium light level scanlines at AVERAGE LIGHT LEVELS FOR YOUR VIEWING. If you optimize it on faint scanlines, it will not be the same once you crank it up to normal light level viewing. The amount of energy involved will change, which will change the elec focus.

OK to do it on dim material optically/mechanically, like with the Cantilever Technique, but not for the Focus trimpots on your focus block. For that you need a good SD grid that shows up in exactly the same light levels of the content you normally watch on TV.

I am not familiar with the patterns you are talking about, but I know that most internal grid patterns on CRT displays themselves are way too bright and way too thick for high precision converging.

I recommend buying Guy Kuo's Ovation SD DVD AVIA, and use their medium - 50 IRE - circlehatch patterns for both mechanical and electronic focusing, but esp. for the electrostatic focusing on SD. I use my Accupel HDG 3000 for the best scanlines available for HD/1080i. The circlehatch grid on Joe Kane's bluray DVE is OK, but still more bright than my regularly viewed 1080i video material. If you use that one you have to match up by eye what you need, while controlling light levels on the display itself, to match up what you are focusing on vs. your typical video content and make them the same light levels both for focusing and for converging.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 10/29/13 at 3:23pm
post #11957 of 12301
HDnet used to broadcast a short test pattern video. My copy on the DVR was saved in 2003. There are just 3 patterns. It has the advantage being on my most used HD source.
I have DVE on DVD and HD-DVD and a Sound & Vision home Theater Tune-up DVD.
post #11958 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Great for SD and for focusing. For converging HD and doing other tests, you'll need 1080i/p test discs.

b
post #11959 of 12301
"They always use small 12v batteries like what's used in a motorcycle and such batteries are cheap, maybe $23 on Amazon"

Bob, PLEASE let me know the next time you come across a battery for $23 that can crank my Road King.
post #11960 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Well I don't pretend to be an authority, I have never even owned a cycle myself, have rarely ridden one. But last time I looked the battery seemed to be the same size as the ones I see in the UPS's...

smile.gif

b
post #11961 of 12301
Hi Mr. Bob et al !

Looks like I need to solder my powerboard again on my PRO-610HD. Not sure if you saw my post on the other thread last week, but it randomly wouldn't turn on from standby. Usually if idle after 24 hours I think. Anyway, yesterday, it popped loud and shut-off. Knowing not to use the tv anymore, I figure I need to do the ole solder again. I originally did it over 5 years ago, at which time I had also replaced my Deflection Assy board. Anyway, after pulling the pboard, I had some questions since I've been out of the loop for awhile.

Per the pics, 1. what is the brown stuff around some of the solder areas? Do I remove that or just leave it alone? If remove, how? 2. I believe I add solder to the tracks that are very dull in color, correct, as circled and pointed out in the pics. Thanks again for any other info you have. The tv pic has been amazing since the deep cleaning. I have a co-worker that is trying to talk me into one of the top end plasmas but I just don't see how this pic can be beaten, especially when it saves me $2,000, ha.
Chet


post #11962 of 12301

I have absolutely no idea.

And, as a result, I mailed my board to Bob, who will do your repair and guarantee it for the rest of his/your/the set's life.

But I'll let him tell you that soon.

Michael

post #11963 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpizzull View Post

Hi Mr. Bob et al !

Looks like I need to solder my powerboard again on my PRO-610HD. Not sure if you saw my post on the other thread last week, but it randomly wouldn't turn on from standby. Usually if idle after 24 hours I think. Anyway, yesterday, it popped loud and shut-off. Knowing not to use the tv anymore, I figure I need to do the ole solder again. I originally did it over 5 years ago, at which time I had also replaced my Deflection Assy board. Anyway, after pulling the pboard, I had some questions since I've been out of the loop for awhile.

Per the pics, 1. what is the brown stuff around some of the solder areas? Do I remove that or just leave it alone? If remove, how? 2. I believe I add solder to the tracks that are very dull in color, correct, as circled and pointed out in the pics. Thanks again for any other info you have. The tv pic has been amazing since the deep cleaning. I have a co-worker that is trying to talk me into one of the top end plasmas but I just don't see how this pic can be beaten, especially when it saves me $2,000, ha.
Chet



Thanks, Michael. I'll take it from here...


Chet -

What you did 5 years ago was to bring your PS board just that much closer to a catastrophic event happening to it.

OWNERS OF THE AFFECTED PIONEER ELITE AND N0N-ELITE CRT HD SETS OF 1999-2001: YOU MUST NOT PARTIALLY RESOLDER YOUR PS BOARD!

Nor allow it to be resoldered partially by local service personnel. That is what they do, is fix what is wrong with your set with no thought of the future. They take - and get to keep - your money, because it will outlast their warranty period.

But it won't be permanently fixed.

eek.gif

This is an absolute. Just resoldering what's bad now brings to center stage the more dangerous cold solder connections that usually happen AFTER the initial ones, leaving your set much more vulverable than it was before. Resoldering whatever is going to go bad then AND LATER is the bottom line of my resoldering protocol, which I guaranty for life after I do it to your board: I FUTURE PROOF IT. That's the only permanent cure for this issue. If you simply resolder the ones that you find bad at the time, sometime later little by little the rest of them will go, eventually taking your set down much harder. I have seen magnificent Pioneer Elite CRT sets totaled because of this. That is what is happening to your set now. You are on very thin ice. DO NOT ALLOW YOUR SET BACK UP TO NORMAL OPERATING TEMPERATURE, EVEN ONCE, WHILE IN THIS CONDITION. RUN IT FOR NO LONGER THAN 40 SECONDS, FOR TESTING ONLY, UNTIL THIS SITUATION IS RESOLVED ON A PERMANENT BASIS. That way it can't possibly warm up.

You have been warned.


You will find the results of more than 7 years worth of research done on this phenom at my youtube video on the subject:

http://youtu.be/I_VerYFt6Y8


To answer your question, the brown stuff is simply the resin contained in all lead-based electronics grade solder, it's not a problem to leave there.

The spaces you pointed to in your pix are just the plating. They are not important to resolder.


What is important is to recognize how thin the ice is over where you are, on this issue. Don't be a cowboy in there, put me on your team and let's save your set PERMANENTLY and then proceed to making it look absolutely stunning.

cool.gif


b
Edited by Mr Bob - 10/31/13 at 2:45pm
post #11964 of 12301
I have a 9 year old Mits 48413 that I am replacing with a flat panel. The picture still looks good but the flat panel will free up some space and I want to modernize some of the other support equipment. My son in law has a 9 year old 48" Mits that has the integrated tuner. That unit has a problem with the convergence chips and is no longer working. We are getting ready to haul them over to the electronics recycling center but before we do that is there any value at all in these old HDTVs. Are there parts that someone might be interested in? Hate to throw away something if there is still value in it for someone. Not looking to sell the parts but would be willing to remove and ship if that is something that makes sense.
post #11965 of 12301
Thread Starter 
These days with flat panels controlling the market there is very little resale value in CRT sets, but there is tremendous viewing value in them. In many ways they are superior to most of what's out there today, when cleaned up internally and dialed in as designed. And they last far longer than most of what's out there today ever will.

A recycling center is going to tear to pieces even a set that is fully functional. Since one set works and the other is not far from working, please keep them intact and available for as long as you can, for someone who knows how to bring the best out of them. Worst case scenario, give the working one to a church where they need a spare TV in a spare room in the church for sermon overflow. Or community center. Or some other worthy charity. Then take a generous writeoff on your taxes.

For the one that needs work, call around and give it away to a service tech, since the repair for convergence is boiler plate for them, they used to do it all the time. They will get an essentially free TV for their guest room or rumpus room. Or since those models are relatively small, their secondary home theater, if they really know what they have.

Remember, they use the same 7" guns in the 48" as in the 65" models. Meaning the 48" models will be significantly brighter than the 65" models, because of the higher concentration of light being delivered to the smaller screen from exactly the same gun size. Light level is inversely proportional to screen size because bigger screens have to spread out the image farther than smaller screens, dissipating the light level accordingly. So smaller screens from the same guns are brighter.

Best case scenario, one of my fellow thread buddies here will take it off your hands and have me over to fully bring out the best in it.

wink.gif

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 11/2/13 at 11:46am
post #11966 of 12301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post


Remember, they use the same 7" guns in the 48" as in the 65" models. Meaning the 48" models will be significantly brighter than the 65" models, because of the higher concentration of light being delivered to the smaller screen from exactly the same gun size. Light level is inversely proportional to screen size because bigger screens have to spread out the image farther than smaller screens, dissipating the light level accordingly. So smaller screens from the same guns are brighter.
wink.gif

b

Thanks for taking the time to respond. We have been nothing but happy with this RPTV. It is in need of cleaning and tweaking but the overall picture quality is still very good. In terms of video It compares favorably with today's flat panels on display at Costco and Best Buy. I have it up on Craigslist right now free to anyone who wants it. Hopefully someone will.
post #11967 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Can you give us the URL to find it at?

b
post #11968 of 12301
It is in Alaska and would not be economically feasible to ship south. Also, the analog inputs are not working. Here is the URL.
http://anchorage.craigslist.org/ele/4165998059.html
post #11969 of 12301
Thread Starter 
For anyone who is a videophile that's no problem. Where this set excels is HD, and composite or S just don't even register on the radar. 480i does not hold a candle to 1080i.

Too bad it's not closer by, but the advice I gave should apply anywhere. Look at the stats on this thread! Thousands of readers. I am sure some of them are in Alaska.

b
post #11970 of 12301
Thread Starter 
Superleo just posted a most exhilarating statement about his fully optimized Hitachi CRT being better than some of the best and most respected flat panels out there today.

Post 11 of the 12 -

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1499033/looking-for-new-tv-s60-st60-or-f5500#post_23940461

Thanks Leo. Could not have said it better myself.

cool.gif

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 11/13/13 at 10:59am
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