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Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 12

post #331 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by strategicthinker View Post

Can the Hitachi 65F59A and 65F710A actually resolve 1080 lines individually even though they are interlaced ?

The benefit of interlaced on a CRT is the every other line being displayed at one time. I have a Mits 65 and with a 1080i EOHL, I see every line. With 7 & 8 CRTs, the lines get closer together because it reaches the limit of the tube size and beam spot size. This is/could be one reason CRT RP TVs don't display native 720p, the image may soften as the spot size overlaps.
post #332 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

The benefit of interlaced on a CRT is the every other line being displayed at one time. I have a Mits 65 and with a 1080i EOHL, I see every line. With 7 & 8 CRTs, the lines get closer together because it reaches the limit of the tube size and beam spot size. This is/could be one reason CRT RP TVs don't display native 720p, the image may soften as the spot size overlaps.

Is that the case with these specific models ? Do you know if they have the same CRT's and optics ?
post #333 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by strategicthinker View Post

Is that the case with these specific models ? Do you know if they have the same CRT's and optics ?

Don't know about those. In general, the specifications will state the CRT size.
post #334 of 12297
I know for the hitachi f59 series all 3 sizes (51,57,65) all use the same crt and optics.
post #335 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Any TV that will accept 1080i will accept 540p, the TV cannot tell the difference.

My Sony CRT RPTV (KP-57WS520) will not accept a 540p signal from a DVD player.

However, I believe when it receives a 720p signal it upconverts it to 1080i then to 540p for display purposes.

The other thing I'm hear from someone very knowledge (known as "Sony Crusader" on Home Theater Spot) that my set only displays 960i and 1080i. Supposedly, when it receives a 480p signal it is upconverted to 960i and does some kind of 480p emmulation. The thing is, however, I can can count roughly 480 scanlines on the screen in progressive mode. So I'm not too sure about this one but I do know this guy is a Sony guru on these sets.
post #336 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

My Sony CRT RPTV (KP-57WS520) will not accept a 540p signal from a DVD player.

However, I believe when it receives a 720p signal it upconverts it to 1080i then to 540p for display purposes.

The other thing I'm hear from someone very knowledge (known as "Sony Crusader" on Home Theater Spot) that my set only displays 960i and 1080i. Supposedly, when it receives a 480p signal it is upconverted to 960i and does some kind of 480p emmulation. The thing is, however, I can can count roughly 480 scanlines on the screen in progressive mode. So I'm not too sure about this one but I do know this guy is a Sony guru on these sets.

I would question the 540p signal from the DVD player. Basically all CRT HDTVs had/have a doubler or processor of some sort. 960i and 480p are the same signal just as 1080i and 540p. Many CRT RPTVs would not accept 720p, however with a ATSC tuner it would accept all broadcast digital signals and scale to the TV's native rate. It was just cheaper for many to omit 720p external input.
post #337 of 12297
My question is why are you bringing up Picture Quality ?

Truth be told the reason RPTV CRT is dead has nothing to do with the PQ. It simply is an ugly peice of technology to look at. Its the beige pc tower with giant monitor of the TV world.

Its 40% larger at the least, usually twice as big. Most of it dead space. You cant put it on a TV stand its a pain in the butt to move as well.

Yes pq rocks. But the cabinets are unbearable when compared to dlps that are much slimmer . mor eportable , and whos footprint are miniscule in comparison.
post #338 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGOFOOTBALL33 View Post

My question is why are you bringing up Picture Quality ?

Because PQ is and should be the most important feature, not that it looks good with the furniture.
post #339 of 12297
I have a two year old Hitachi 65inch rear projection ultravision , I have the money to upgrade but havent because I havent found anything that BEATS my current picture. CRT still rules in my opinion, and when that changes, so will my TV ASAP, but for now I am extremely happy with my CRT
post #340 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Bailey View Post

Because PQ is and should be the most important feature, not that it looks good with the furniture.

Not trying to offend anyone, but it is usually the Ladies/Wives that pick a TV based on how it looks when it is OFF! Picture quality is usually the #1 item, at times, qualified/compromised by the viewing situation and needs of the owner.
post #341 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Not trying to offend anyone, but it is usually the Ladies/Wives that pick a TV based on how it looks when it is OFF! Picture quality is usually the #1 item, at times, qualified/compromised by the viewing situation and needs of the owner.

Single straight man.
Viewing angles are also another reason if you want to nit pick.
I couldnt care less about furniture but its ridiculous to pay nearly the same amount of money for somehting when you can have it in a package less than half the bulk while maintaining exact same screen size. YOu assume its wife GF again overlloking the biggest reason being space. Most people buying sets do not own homes or have infinite space to play with. If I have to choose between a dlp set that I can put all my components underneath it makes more sense than buying a CrT where ill have to relocate dvds . av receiver , cable box ,dvd , and xbox .
I doubt most of you with these sets are using giant floor standing speakers that are nearly as big as your set.

PQ is the only thing in its favor. EVERYTHING else is in favor of lcd,dlp or plasma. Brightness , viewing angle , prices dropping , future compatibility etc.
post #342 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGOFOOTBALL33 View Post


PQ is the only thing in its favor. EVERYTHING else is in favor of lcd,dlp or plasma. Brightness , viewing angle , prices dropping , future compatibility etc.

The viewing angles on LCD and DLP sets are certainly nothing to brag about either. And as for your earlier comment about maneuverability of CRT RPTV's, my Pioneer 53" PRO-510HD although physically bigger than most LCD and DLP's, it also has casters. And it moves around a lot easier than any 50"+ LCD or DLP that's sitting on a stand that is also loaded down with stuff like a center channel speaker and other electronic gear will. And BTW, the picture quality of any type of set IS important. So if that is the only thing a CRT RPTV set has in it's favor, then it's still way ahead of the game when it comes to other types of TV's. Because the picture quality of a CRT, is what all the other TV technologies are still trying achieve. And so far, only the better plasma sets are about the only ones that are coming close to it.
post #343 of 12297
I have a Pioneer Elite Pro-510HD. It has served me well, despite the annoying blue flashes. Unfortunately, it has the following drawbacks that have pushed me to get an XBR2:
  • No HMDI/HDCP (or even DVI)
  • No 720p
  • No 1080p (I'm really susceptible to interlaced displays)
  • Forced to watch most 4:3 material with a nonuniform stretch due to burn-in hazards
  • Otherwise-fabulous 480i deinterlacer has a bug in the red channel that makes it splotchy and I always see it
  • 480p forces 16:9 mode, which is often incorrect and/or inconvenient
I really didn't want a fixed-resolution display, but you just can't get the quality and features of an Elite in any other CRT set I've seen. I also just can't stand to get another display that can burn in.

I do realize I'm giving up excellent PQ and its amazing 72-point convergence, the likes of which I'm sure I'll never see again. I'm really sad that I can't just get a new CRT Elite without the issues above.
post #344 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenGhoti View Post

I have a Pioneer Elite Pro-510HD. It has served me well, despite the annoying blue flashes. Unfortunately, it has the following drawbacks that have pushed me to get an XBR2:
  • No HMDI/HDCP (or even DVI)
  • No 720p
  • No 1080p (I'm really susceptible to interlaced displays)
  • Forced to watch most 4:3 material with a nonuniform stretch due to burn-in hazards
  • Otherwise-fabulous 480i deinterlacer has a bug in the red channel that makes it splotchy and I always see it
  • 480p forces 16:9 mode, which is often incorrect and/or inconvenient
I really didn't want a fixed-resolution display, but you just can't get the quality and features of an Elite in any other CRT set I've seen. I also just can't stand to get another display that can burn in.

I do realize I'm giving up excellent PQ and its amazing 72-point convergence, the likes of which I'm sure I'll never see again. I'm really sad that I can't just get a new CRT Elite without the issues above.

I use a HTPC as a source and HDMI - HDCP are a none issues.
No problem with 720p here, although 720p is a poor second to 1080i.
Been using CRT RPTV's for 6 years, and no burn in problems.

The bulk of a CRT RPTV has never bothered me. It takes up the same floor space as any display of the same screen size, and is easy to move around.

Running a 57 Hitachi here (117 point convergence ), and am looking at a Sony 70 SXRD or 65 1080p Panasonic Plasma as a replacement.
It will be interesting to see if the digitals can live up to the challenge.
post #345 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

I would question the 540p signal from the DVD player.

Can you elaborate on this? The player was an Oppo 971.
post #346 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGOFOOTBALL33 View Post

My question is why are you bringing up Picture Quality ?

Truth be told the reason RPTV CRT is dead has nothing to do with the PQ. It simply is an ugly peice of technology to look at. Its the beige pc tower with giant monitor of the TV world.

Its 40% larger at the least, usually twice as big. Most of it dead space. You cant put it on a TV stand its a pain in the butt to move as well.

Yes pq rocks. But the cabinets are unbearable when compared to dlps that are much slimmer . mor eportable , and whos footprint are miniscule in comparison.

Wow, were to begin. 1st, in case you missed it you're on a technical forum posting in a thread about picture quality. Of cour picture quality is the most important thing.

2nd, my new Hitachi has nearly the same look (cabinet wise) that the new lcd & dlps have. Blessedly the picutre is far superior.

3rd, 40% larger and twice as big? Are you serious? Once you put the lcd & dlp sets on a stand you're now at essentially the floor space & footprint of the CRT.
post #347 of 12297
I have a fully calibrated Hitachi 51S500. The PQ is something DLPs and LCDs could only aspire to. However, if I had one of those I could put the electronics on the stand below, get rid of my side tower and have the room for a 70 incher. I could also see the picture in daylight and not have to have room darkening drapes.


Today, I would probably trade the lessor PQ but 3 years ago the cost was far too great.
post #348 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by strategicthinker View Post

Can the Hitachi 65F59A and 65F710A actually resolve 1080 lines individually even though they are interlaced ?



strategicthinker.

the F59s official resolution is 1280x1080
post #349 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballz2TheWallz View Post

the F59s official resolution is 1280x1080

You mean 1920x1080 ?
post #350 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Can you elaborate on this? The player was an Oppo 971.

540p and 1080i are electronically equivalent. A 1080i signal is interlaced, meaning only 540 lines are drawn in each frame. All odd lines, 1,3,5,....1079, then the even, 2,4,6,....1080. A 540p signal, simply draws all 540 lines in every frame, 1,2,3,4.....540, and the TV has no idea of the difference. It just knows its getting 540 lines in every frame to display.

From the Oppo manual; "Some TV sets do not support one or more DVI output resolutions, particularly the 540p resolution. In this case repeatedly press the DVI button until a supported resolution is selected". Also, cannot switch resolution while playing disc.
post #351 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

540p and 1080i are electronically equivalent. A 1080i signal is interlaced, meaning only 540 lines are drawn in each frame. All odd lines, 1,3,5,....1079, then the even, 2,4,6,....1080. A 540p signal, simply draws all 540 lines in every frame, 1,2,3,4.....540, and the TV has no idea of the difference. It just knows its getting 540 lines in every frame to display.

From the Oppo manual; "Some TV sets do not support one or more DVI output resolutions, particularly the 540p resolution. In this case repeatedly press the DVI button until a supported resolution is selected". Also, cannot switch resolution while playing disc.

Do you think 540p would look any differently than 1080i in terms of viewing?

I ask because 480p (with the visible horizontal scanline structure) is always is slightly sharper than upscaled 1080i with SD DVD with this display (both scanrates are ISF'd and fully calibrated including focus, convergence, etc.). However, because I hate seeing scanlines, I still use 1080i since the scanlines become invisible and the image is more filmlike. Note this is the case with any DVD player I've tried...including some high end ones. From a resolution standpoint (looking at Avia 200 Mhz resolution patterns), both 480p and 1080i are about equal -- again in regards to SD DVD.
post #352 of 12297
A 540p signal displayed on a 1080i display couldn't provide the full vertical resolution 1920X1080i is capable of. That's about 800 lines or more, which is possible with static images, as this table measured during ATSC approval shows (only with test patterns). As the Resolution intro paragraph to a ATSC PDF tech report mentions, 1080i, while motion is taking place, tends to look like 540p because vertical resolution drops. A 1080i-capable CRT display specification at ~1280X1080 seems confusing, but means while showing a 1920X1080 image the display can only resolve ~1280 lines effective resolution horizontally (16X9 width). That's typical for 7"-CRT RPTVs--and perhaps typical, or more than, the resolvable horizontal detail in many 1080i shows. A 540p image shouldn't have the interlace artifacts of 1080i images. -- John
post #353 of 12297
John, I think they're talking about scaled 480i output at 540p v. 1080i, not a 1920X1080i sourced signal output at 540p.
post #354 of 12297
There have been discussions of 540p improving the picture by reducing some 1080i artifacts, however it depends on the display. On my Marquee 9500LC, there are visible differences between 480i, 480p, 540p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p. On my Mits WS-65813, I don't see a difference in 1080i and 540p. and I don't see a difference between the RGBHV and DVI inputs. The TV apparently processes all of its signals and displays at a native rate. Also with a CRT, the display doesn't have a specific horizontal resolution (no pixels), it just draws a line. Bandwidth is a real issue with CRT RPTV. My Mits will show every other horizontal line (EOHL) at 1080i, but will not show EOVL at 1080i or 540p.
post #355 of 12297
I suspect the reason why SD DVD upscaling on my CRT RPTV display slightly softens the image is because at 1080i some of the horizontal scanlines overlap.....where as at 480p there is no overlapping scanlines and is essentially native. Any other possible reason?
post #356 of 12297
i know that the mitsubishi 65815 2006 model has 9" guns. does anybody know what size guns the 55815 has?
post #357 of 12297
Greetings,
Here is the major issue I have with the Tosh 51H84 that I own:

I recently had my 1 year old set calibrated and the protective screen removed. After the calibration I noticed Major color uniformity issues on the outer edges of the screen which were not present before the calibration. Mostly red. The center of the screen was perfect but when watching movies you could definately see the red on the outer edges during darker scenes. So my calibrator and I tried Lens Striping the red gun..That fixed the red then there was green, so then we striped the green and then the blue. We kept this up until the temps were reasonable on the outer edges, they are running a touch blue. After all was said and done more than a 1/4 of my red CRT was covered with black tape. This didn't seem right but the picture was great. I was thinking, man this is way too much work! Do all RPTV's have to be lens striped to avoid this issue after calibration? And how could a professional perform a calibration on a RPTV without lens striping? Again the color uniformity was so bad I couldn't stand watching my TV. I honestly don't think one should have to tear their tv apart, risking permanent damage, so that you can tape over lenses over and over again to get the desired picture quality.

Therefore, I think in the future I will go with a different technology unless the other technologies experience this "Color Uniformity" issue post calibration?
post #358 of 12297
Nothing changed in the TV with calibration, it was just with accurate colors and other settings the sins of the TV were unmasked. The issue you have is basically a square tube with a 16:9 image and a round lens. Since the image fits through the round lens, reflected light, the glow of the phosphor from the non-image area all affect the image. The lens striping is a means to mask these problems.

The 55815 has 7 CRT.
post #359 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenGhoti View Post

I have a Pioneer Elite Pro-510HD. It has served me well, despite the annoying blue flashes.

Those "flashes" can probably be totaly fixed with a resolder of the power supply board, to fix the cold solder joints. It's a known problem and a known fix. And in fact Pioneer is even doing the repair under warranty for some people, even though the sets are now long out of their official warranty. It's also something that if you are comfortable with electrical soldering, you can do yourself.
post #360 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

The issue you have is basically a square tube with a 16:9 image and a round lens. Since the image fits through the round lens, reflected light, the glow of the phosphor from the non-image area all affect the image. The lens striping is a means to mask these problems.

Huh? Lens striping is a necessarily evil due to the short light path of the red & blue CRTs on their respective sides of the set. To quote Guy Kuo "the stripe cuts off part of the light to dim the portion of the screen which is overly lit by the lens."
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