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Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 233

post #6961 of 12297
This reminds me of why I kept my 51H83 set. Daughter put in Wall-E last night and the first words out of my 12 year olds mouth was literally, "WOW! Nice picture!". And it is spectacular.
post #6962 of 12297
Holy Canollies!!!

In the Austin area http://austin.craigslist.org/ele/1733727183.html

Its a buyers market for these!
post #6963 of 12297
I found a Pioneer set on the Cincinnati craigslist for $50 then $5 now free. Crazy. I couldn't give my Tosh away for even $250. Just worth too much to me. See post #6962.
post #6964 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post

Holy Canollies!!!

In the Austin area http://austin.craigslist.org/ele/1733727183.html

Its a buyers market for these!

OMG! $500 for a Mit 73 CRT! I wish I had a warehouse...



Buy it, fly me out, and you'll still be thousands ahead of any other options available.


b
post #6965 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post

Bob,

have you check if you are getting RGB over HDMI or YCbCr signal to your tv set? This may explain why you loose the sharpness. On my Pio 730HDi with pure digital enabled I loose color, tint and sharpness control when I send RGB signal over HDMI. I can fix this by disabling Pure Digital circuitry but the additional conversion introduces color distrortions. So the best thing is to use YCbCr which is a native format for Blu-Rays, HD-DVD's and DVD's and keep Pure Digital on. Though most satellite receivers are not capable of this, as well as all DVI equpped video sources (DVI only supports RGB).
Most video components nowdays have pretty bad component video circuitry (huge color errors) so HDMI is definately the way to go. I use HDMI with my TV almost all the time. PC is my main video source nowdays. Also I adjusted the bandwidth of HDMI RGB in SM of my set as it wasn't set the the maximum as HDMI YCbCr. This improved the sharpness a bit. My nephew was playing games for 3 hours on my PS3 and it only supports YCbCr with AVC-HD, Blu-Ray and DVD discs. Though RGB is the best in terms of color accuracy for primaries and secondaries but with Pure Digital enabled and properly calibrated the error isn't that high.

My set doesn't do RGB, only HDMI and component. HDMI stinks, component razor sharp. End of built-in possibilities, unfortunately. HD Fury series the only viable alternative, but an incredible one! I have the II and love it!

Yes RGB does not do Color or Tint, it's a straight-thru kind of thing, bypassing all that. Well designed component is the only way to fly, in my sit. Your set has more signal path options than mine.

b
post #6966 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

My only issue with the Mit DVI/HDMI is not in the grayscale or colorations dept, where both are 100% calibratable.

My issue is with the image structure. DK about yours, but on my last-gen 73" CRT Mit set its HDMI is hopelessly mulchy compared to the component, which is razor sharp.

I use the HD Fury II for the HDMI OP of my BDP, and would also use it for the HDMI OP of my Dish DVR if my input complement required it.

I would not use my Mit's HDMI circuits for ANYTHING. But perhaps I just have a dud...

What I do know is that for under $200 you can avoid any need to buy new just to have HDMI OP for your SD DVD upconversions, just by equipping your set with the HD Fury II. It is capable of staying incredibly razor sharp and precise even on the big ceiling projectors, where the much bigger picture projected means crispness is a huge issue. The HD Fury II is sizzling, passes with flying colors and is used by the most demanding owners with the bigger projection CRT pictures, with truly amazing results. See the Screenshot War thread.

No need to buy a new display just to get HDMI capability. No need whatsoever. Don't buy new! Our CRT sets, properly set up, are the rival of most anything out there to buy new, and size for size are always better than the highly affordable ones, hands down.

b

I thought my PS3 routed through my DVI input looked awsome. Are you telling me routing the PS3 through the the HD Fury II to my Component inputs will make it a lot better? I had no idea that was a problem with the Mits.
post #6967 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

I thought my PS3 routed through my DVI input looked awsome. Are you telling me routing the PS3 through the the HD Fury II to my Component inputs will make it a lot better? I had no idea that was a problem with the Mits.

Guess you'll just have to borrow Bob's and find out.

Actually, I think you can try a Fury for 30 days and return it if you're not impressed.
"Guaranteed to work in your system or your money back! Return your order within 30 days for a refund. No questions asked!"
http://www.curtpalme.com/HDFury3.shtm
post #6968 of 12297
Then the next question is... would the Fury 2 do a better job than the native Component output of the PS3? I can just buy a cable and get that from the PS3 without the fury. Also, LBNL you posted a link to the Fury 3, not the 2. You can get the 2 for $135. Any reason I would need to go with the 3 for $300? Is is that much better?
post #6969 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Guess you'll just have to borrow Bob's and find out.

Actually, I think you can try a Fury for 30 days and return it if you're not impressed.
"Guaranteed to work in your system or your money back! Return your order within 30 days for a refund. No questions asked!"
http://www.curtpalme.com/HDFury3.shtm


Keep in mind that the HDFury isnt the only converter out there you can use. Moome also makes one, the EXTHD. I have this and love it. Does everything the HDFury 3 can plus comes with black boost, gamma adjustment and it was $20 cheaper.

http://www.curtpalme.com/EXT-FULLHD.shtm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

Then the next question is... would the Fury 2 do a better job than the native Component output of the PS3? I can just buy a cable and get that from the PS3 without the fury. Also, LBNL you posted a link to the Fury 3, not the 2. You can get the 2 for $135. Any reason I would need to go with the 3 for $300? Is is that much better?

HDFury 2 will work but only has 1 HDMI input. HDfury 3 has two HDMI inputs. I dont have the HDFury so I cant comment on it but I heard good reviews and is more popular. You can pick up the HDfury 2 at monoprice, but I bet you already know that
post #6970 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

Then the next question is... would the Fury 2 do a better job than the native Component output of the PS3? I can just buy a cable and get that from the PS3 without the fury. Also, LBNL you posted a link to the Fury 3, not the 2. You can get the 2 for $135. Any reason I would need to go with the 3 for $300? Is is that much better?

No clue. I have no interest in either. But I'm sure the good folks there would be happy to answer your questions (as would, of course, some of the good folks here).
Just trying to point you in the right direction (and spur on the economy).
post #6971 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

My set doesn't do RGB, only HDMI and component. HDMI stinks, component razor sharp. End of built-in possibilities, unfortunately. HD Fury series the only viable alternative, but an incredible one! I have the II and love it!

Yes RGB does not do Color or Tint, it's a straight-thru kind of thing, bypassing all that. Well designed component is the only way to fly, in my sit. Your set has more signal path options than mine.

b

Bob,

I wrote a pretty long response but this forum has a problem when you respond without logging in first. Basically I lost everything typed.
You don't understand what I'm reffering to when I say RGB. You assume I'm talking about D-Sub 15 RGB input on my set. What I was reffering to is HDMI RGB signal. HDMI unlike DVI can support both, RGB and YCbCr (component video) signals. DVI only capable of RGB.
D-Sub 15 RGB provides the shortest video pass on 730HDi but the lack of sharpness control in both user and service menu are the drawbacks. It's closer to what we see in the movie theater but not something we got used seeing at home. Color and tint can be adjusted in the service menu. With HDMI RGB signal you can at least adjust the low pass filter in the service menu. By default it is set lower then the maximum allowed value (default for HDMI YCbCr). Simple change in one register will boost the sharpness by a noticeable margin. If you want a full control from the user menu (sharpness, color, tint) then you can simply disable Pure Digital and live with additional color errors. Another limitation of D-Sub 15 RGB input is lack of 720p support.
Try to use HDMI YCbCr capable video source with your Mitsubishi. Make sure you use YCbCr, not RGB in HDMI settings.
I use my PC as the main source for many reasons. The main reason is that I can get perfect gamma, greyscale, luminance, overscan without using any external device. I can create gamma boost in the software if I want to. My video driver supports all variations of YCbCr (4:4:4), (4:2:0) and so on. The big advantage is that all this done in the digital domain, whereas many external processors that lack dvi/hdmi inputs have to go through additional steps of a/d and d/a conversions introducing new artefacts.
post #6972 of 12297
Alright, so I just got a ws-65313 for 200 bucks. I went and picked up the TV, turned it on, checked the convergence and contrast and everything was great. picture looked fantastic.

So I get home, plug in my xbox 360... turn it to 1080i and the convergence goes haywire. (the picture in the middle is perfect, around the corners the convergence is about an inch to 2 inches off). It is only off and extremely bowed when watching any resolution above 480p. any other resolution the colors bow really bad ( i read something about how the settings change from 480 to hd content so that would explain it.

Now the problem, is that it did not come with a remote which I need in order to adjust the multipoint convergence. What I'm worried about however, is that it is severely bowed. It looks like the picture is wrapping around the screen a couple of inches. Does this sound like my IC's are bad? even if I think the TV is a good enough deal that I will keep it, but I'm not sure.

Anyways my question is, do you think my IC's are bad? and if so do you think the TV is worth 200 + the 70 bucks for the repair kit?

Or, is there some other issue?

Or when I get the remote do you think I can adjust the bow out of the tv??

ill be out of town for a couple of weeks for army training, but my brother will be checking for a response, thanks in advance for you help.
post #6973 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

tpaxadcom, the Pioneer 730HDi is the RPTV I've been searching in my area. Could you provide a owner's review and experiences w/this TV? Mucho appreciated.

Well the same crap just happened to me again. I lost my message again. There is a stupid login time out that kicks you out if you type something for too long.
Anyhow, I love my TV. I posted previously my HCFR calibration results with and without compensation using software on my PC. I bought 2 matching pioneer racks for it and also have high gloss speakers that match this tv very well. I believe the model number for matching racks is RA-E64, but the ones I bought are RA-E60. They are absolutely identical with the exception of front door glass. RE-64 has double doors (very annoying as most components have display right in the middle) whereas RE-60 has a single door. RE-60 were build to match older pioneer pro series, but exactly the same size as RE-64. Service menu is very flexible and you can calibrate it to your video sources as it has so many offsets for all kinds of modes of operation. Before I bought it in 2004 I had it compared to bunch of other TV’s. I always wanted Pioneer but was also considering Mitsubishi 65813/65815. Back in the days Mitsubishi and Pioneers of interest were never located in any of the stores in my area side by side. When Pioneer announced that they won’t be making RPTV any longer, the decided to move their inventory very quick and start selling them through Good Guys distribution chain. I have a friend who worked there so I was able to spend my time there without being disturbed. I brought my calibration disc and reference DVD material. I ended up getting Pioneer with smaller 7” guns. According to measurements done by some reviewers in AV magazine 9” guns in 65813 didn’t offer higher resolution and brighter picture as it’s being taught in this thread. I guess comparing front projection CRTs and RPTV CRTs is like comparing apples to oranges.
I learn a lot during several years of tweaking my TV. It’s a very long learning curve. There is enormous amount of information available today comparing to what was available 3-5 years ago. Though you have to be ready to consume this information, spend time on forums, buying calibration equipment and learn different tricks. I always wanted to take pictures to show that STD mode on Pioneer is the worst. It has edge enhancement that cannot be disabled. The only other mode that has EE is PRO, but you can turn it in user menu. It’s very easy to see this on the test patterns. STD mode is global mode in pioneers that why calibrators use it. Also you cannot take measurements with latest generation of Pioneers while in the service menu as once you get out of it everything will be shifted. Initially I thought that was because of some registers not set to 0, but learn very quickly that it is not the case.
I was always looking for excuse to buy another RPTV but I have no place to put it. A few years ago I wanted to get it for my mom, but nothing was available at the time and I ended up getting plasma for her. Though the funnies thing is that she never watches tv in the living room. I saw 730HDi in Seattle last week but it’s too far away from where I live. It’s not a new TV so there is a chance it has burn-in issue.
I would recommend to buy 730HDi (2 HDMI’s) over 730HD (2 DVI’s) for the reasons I’ve mentioned in my previous posts. Another reason not to get 730HD is if you own PS3 and use component video or HDMI RGB mode (the only mode that will work with DVI connection) you wont get BTB and WTW required for calibration.
post #6974 of 12297
Thanks Tpax, that was a great read & post. I know it's annoying as hell when you loose a post after spending the time to write it. I especially enjoy reading about this RPTV from actual users that have had a lot of experience w/it in the home. I'll keep searching my area for a 730HDi. Again, thanks.
post #6975 of 12297
TVNUB,
I believe there is seperate convergences for 480 and 1080 with this set, so while 480 is good 1080 needs corrected. You have to feed the set a 1080 signal to display to get the convergence in 1080 mode. The bad news is you need the remote to do it. Check ebay for a remote and service manual for this set as it will tell you how to do the convergence correctly. Nice price for the set also.
post #6976 of 12297
Thread Starter 
www.remotecentral.com. Or look for it on ebay or amazon. You'll need the official original remote, or at least I would hold out for that. There are some buttons on it that I have never seen anywhere else.

Regular universals won't even come close, for calibrating your set.


b
post #6977 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

I thought my PS3 routed through my DVI input looked awsome. Are you telling me routing the PS3 through the the HD Fury II to my Component inputs will make it a lot better? I had no idea that was a problem with the Mits.

DK about your Mits, but definitely a problem with mine. With mine your statement above would be 100% true.

I would stick with using the HDMI OP on any PS3, otherwise - as mentioned above - you won't get blacker than black, which is just not there on component. You can see this on the Pluge pattern of the BD version of HD DVE. I have so far found this to apply to any Sony BDP, PS3 or outboard. Watch for it to be there or not be there on the outermost vertical stripes of the pattern.

You will get btb with HDMI OP on the Sonys. You won't on the component OP.

DK about w/w.

b
post #6978 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

No clue. I have no interest in either. But I'm sure the good folks there would be happy to answer your questions (as would, of course, some of the good folks here).
Just trying to point you in the right direction (and spur on the economy).

Hitachi has a very good HDMI circuit, it is head and shoulders better than the Mit version on my last-gen set. If you have a Hit, I don't think you'll need to worry about it. The Hit HDMI's I have worked with are primo, and totally tight like they should be.


b
post #6979 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post

Bob,

I wrote a pretty long response but this forum has a problem when you respond without logging in first. Basically I lost everything typed.
You don't understand what I'm reffering to when I say RGB. You assume I'm talking about D-Sub 15 RGB input on my set. What I was reffering to is HDMI RGB signal. HDMI unlike DVI can support both, RGB and YCbCr (component video) signals. DVI only capable of RGB.
D-Sub 15 RGB provides the shortest video pass on 730HDi but the lack of sharpness control in both user and service menu are the drawbacks. It's closer to what we see in the movie theater but not something we got used seeing at home. Color and tint can be adjusted in the service menu. With HDMI RGB signal you can at least adjust the low pass filter in the service menu. By default it is set lower then the maximum allowed value (default for HDMI YCbCr). Simple change in one register will boost the sharpness by a noticeable margin. If you want a full control from the user menu (sharpness, color, tint) then you can simply disable Pure Digital and live with additional color errors. Another limitation of D-Sub 15 RGB input is lack of 720p support.
Try to use HDMI YCbCr capable video source with your Mitsubishi. Make sure you use YCbCr, not RGB in HDMI settings.
I use my PC as the main source for many reasons. The main reason is that I can get perfect gamma, greyscale, luminance, overscan without using any external device. I can create gamma boost in the software if I want to. My video driver supports all variations of YCbCr (4:4:4), (4:2:0) and so on. The big advantage is that all this done in the digital domain, whereas many external processors that lack dvi/hdmi inputs have to go through additional steps of a/d and d/a conversions introducing new artefacts.

I have suffered this malady, and man! You just want to shoot someone!

You gotta get in the habit of either saving it often externally, or do your actual writeup in Word or Notepad, or in some other way do it ahead of time and copy/paste it in to the thread when you're done with the writing of it.

I totally share your pain...!



I'll try your suggestion ASAP -

b
post #6980 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVNUB View Post

Alright, so I just got a ws-65313 for 200 bucks. I went and picked up the TV, turned it on, checked the convergence and contrast and everything was great. picture looked fantastic.

So I get home, plug in my xbox 360... turn it to 1080i and the convergence goes haywire. (the picture in the middle is perfect, around the corners the convergence is about an inch to 2 inches off). It is only off and extremely bowed when watching any resolution above 480p. any other resolution the colors bow really bad ( i read something about how the settings change from 480 to hd content so that would explain it.

Now the problem, is that it did not come with a remote which I need in order to adjust the multipoint convergence. What I'm worried about however, is that it is severely bowed. It looks like the picture is wrapping around the screen a couple of inches. Does this sound like my IC's are bad? even if I think the TV is a good enough deal that I will keep it, but I'm not sure.

Anyways my question is, do you think my IC's are bad? and if so do you think the TV is worth 200 + the 70 bucks for the repair kit?

Or, is there some other issue?

Or when I get the remote do you think I can adjust the bow out of the tv??

ill be out of town for a couple of weeks for army training, but my brother will be checking for a response, thanks in advance for you help.

You definitely scored. Keep it and get it outfitted with the right remote, then go to work.

One way to know if your ICs are bad is to use the User convergence to see if the points obey your commands. If not, or if only part of the screen image obeys, the ICs need replacement.

Unfortunately you'll need the remote even to check on this!

b
post #6981 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post

I ended up getting Pioneer with smaller 7” guns. According to measurements done by some reviewers in AV magazine 9” guns in 65813 didn’t offer higher resolution and brighter picture as it’s being taught in this thread.

Disagree. I have worked with the Zenith and Philips 9" gun 65" screen sets, and there is definitely a difference in depth between 7" guns and 9" guns on the same sized 65" (Zenith 64") screen. Once focused, geometry'd and converged properly, it's a palpable difference.

Quote:


I guess comparing front projection CRTs and RPTV CRTs is like comparing apples to oranges.

Agreed. Much more sophisticated electronics. But CRT RPTVs can still render pix the envy of most of the new fixed pixel stuff out there, even at 10 years old.

Quote:


. I always wanted to take pictures to show that STD mode on Pioneer is the worst. It has edge enhancement that cannot be disabled. The only other mode that has EE is PRO, but you can turn it in user menu. It’s very easy to see this on the test patterns. STD mode is global mode in pioneers that why calibrators use it.

STD does have Detail, SVM and Sharpness, tho, in the sm. I have found these more than adequate to dial down the ee, which IMHO does not need to be disabled, just worked with on these 2 registers.

Usually I leave SVM alone at factory setting of zero, take down the Sharpness quite a bit, and goose up the Detail almost to full. This has allowed me to pull back that horrendous ee that almost breaks a pic apart, restoring smooth continuity and fidelity to the image. As you mentioned it of course applies to all scanrates, as everything in STD does, since STD is the basis of the platform and everything else is built on top of it, on top of those settings.

In my calibrations owners don't have to use PRO or anything else afterwards. STD is all they ever need after that.


b
post #6982 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I would stick with using the HDMI OP on any PS3, otherwise - as mentioned above - you won't get blacker than black, which is just not there on component. You can see this on the Pluge pattern of the BD version of HD DVE. I have so far found this to apply to any Sony BDP0, PS3 or outboard. Watch for it to be there or not be there on the outermost vertical stripes of the pattern.

You will get btb with HDMI OP on the Sonys. You won't on the component OP.

DK about w/w.

b

Would BTB be a problem using the HDMI output of the PS3 into the Fury 2 then use the Component output of the Fury to the Component input of the Mitsubishi?
post #6983 of 12297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo M View Post

TVNUB,
I believe there is seperate convergences for 480 and 1080 with this set, so while 480 is good 1080 needs corrected. You have to feed the set a 1080 signal to display to get the convergence in 1080 mode. The bad news is you need the remote to do it. Check ebay for a remote and service manual for this set as it will tell you how to do the convergence correctly. Nice price for the set also.


Angelo, thanks for the response. This is actually the original poster's brother and roomate - he's away at Drill for the next two weeks and I was going to monitor this post to see if anyone came up with something we hadn't already.

I should mention that when viewing 480i it's not perfect like he said but so close to perfect you don't notice without glasses / if you've viewing from at least a few feet away.

I found the service manual last night. We were able to get into service and configuration mode last night and quickly figured out we needed the OEM remote to make any adjustments. Found an OEM replacement for the remote for $20 and ordered it last night. I will adjust when the remote arrives in a few days and post an update.

Hopefully this fixes the problem!
post #6984 of 12297
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt5094 View Post

Would BTB be a problem using the HDMI output of the PS3 into the Fury 2 then use the Component output of the Fury to the Component input of the Mitsubishi?

Nep. That would work out great. HD Fury II/III delivers the sharpest pic around, and allows for the btb supplied ONLY by the HDMI OP - and not by the component OP - of the PS3.

Using the HDMI and the HD Fury, your btb will get there to your screen unimpeded, in all its glory.

And counter to popular belief, btb is not only for calibration. It's for viewing. There's a certain scene in TFE where the front of the hulking alien struggles to show detail because of the backlighting of the alien in that scene. It's near the beginning of the movie, I believe it's shortly after the professor has been zero'd in on by one of the aliens and has collapsed.

With btb that detail on the alien's front is fully visible and quite detailed.

Without btb, it's barely visible at all. Same scene, same frame.

b
post #6985 of 12297
Thanks! I may try a trial period on the Fury 2 and see how much of a difference it makes. Do the HD STBs do a good job on the Component output? I have a DCH3416 Motorola in case you know anything specifically about that model.
post #6986 of 12297
Thread Starter 
I tried the Fury on my Dish VIP 622 and found no difference at all between the 2. That's the only one I've tried.

Newer STBs, however, along with newer BD players, will probably not want to spend any extra money on their designs making sure that component stays looking good, now that all they have to do is plug in to HDMI. I have seen some really crappy looking component material on some of the newer all digital flat panels. Their HDMI looks a lot better.

On the older component-conn'd units tho, designed when it was about the only game in town, no stone was left unturned - their circuits are superb and every bit as good as well done HDMI and a lot better than poorly done HDMI.


b
post #6987 of 12297
"Newer STBs, however, along with newer BD players, will probably not want to spend any extra money on their designs making sure that component stays looking good, now that all they have to do is plug in to HDMI. I have seen some really crappy looking component material on some of the newer all digital flat panels. Their HDMI looks a lot better.

On the older component-conn'd units tho, designed when it was about the only game in town, no stone was left unturned - their circuits are superb and every bit as good as well done HDMI and a lot better than poorly done HDMI."


What that tells me is, the HDMI output of the newer components are the best, the Component input of our older TVs are the best soooo the best signal path would probably be HDMI from the newer devices into the Fury 2 or 3 and Component out of the Fury to the Mitsubishi. That sound logical?
post #6988 of 12297
Thread Starter 
100%.



No better way to go, unless you have the older, well designed component OPs, where all you would need to do in that case is go straight component to component. This would apply to all CRT RPTV tech, I have never seen any of that deliver crappy component performance. The only crappy component performance I have seen is when the display was fixed pixel flat panel and it was obviously only designed for its HDMI to look good.

The HD Fury II or III are really needed only for the incredible job of SD->HD upconversion Blurays do to our years-old libraries of the older regular SD DVD 480i discs.

Other than that, if you have CRT RPTV tech like I do, stick to component to component hookup. I have both ready to go at all times, as the colorations can be different between the OP modes of the various BDPs.



b
post #6989 of 12297
Bob, one of the reasons I got the HDFury III was also for streaming video services. I believe if you don't have HDMI they'll only stream SD. My new Bluray player has Netflix and Vudu on it which I watch regularly with most of the streams in HD.
post #6990 of 12297
Thread Starter 
So both the HD Fury II and III will do that, right? Seemed like you were pinpointing the III...

b
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