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Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 255

post #7621 of 11733
12/3/10 at 7:24pm
Any idea what an IC repair my run if it turns out that's the cause of my problem?
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post #7622 of 11733
12/3/10 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradesp View Post

Any idea what an IC repair my run if it turns out that's the cause of my problem?

if it is that and you are able to do it yourself it's a pretty cheap fix. you will need new convergence IC'S and be able solder. wait for mr. bob to reply or one of the other members that are more knowledgeable to give you advice. i do know the IC'S are usually pretty cheap.
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post #7623 of 11733
12/4/10 at 1:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumar2k View Post

True... my bad!

so, in the long run is it ok to have that brightish light come up for a fraction of second?

No idea, as I have not seen that one before. But no, I wouldn't, myself. I'd take care of that right now.

b
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post #7624 of 11733
12/4/10 at 1:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IsaacT View Post

@Mr Bob:

My name is Isaac. I have a co-worker with a Hitachi 51F59A that is clearly not working properly. My boss, Bill, and I are trying to help her out. We're a company of A/V nerds. So we thought we'd be in the greatest position to help her. Our knee-jerk reaction was to have her dump this and get a new one, but her financial situation won't allow her that luxury. So she's going to have this display, or none at all.

(I had a much wordier piece written. But when I hit "Quick Reply", apparently my session expired and I lost the comment. So here's the Reader's Digest condensed version.)

There's no red in the picture and it's exceedingly dark – whether you connect the HD Cable box or an upscaling DVD player via HDMI or Component. We fudged hue and saturation to give it some semblance of normalcy, but the best color we can get has a lot of blue and yellow in it. "Clifford the Big Red Dog" was on PBS HD. Clifford's supposed to be red. He was black. We put in "Star Wars: Epsiode III" on DVD. Went right to the Mustafar battle scenes. Lots of lava, no red, very dark.

We tried applying a service menu-based HDMI fix found in another thread. But the values in the E2PROM list were already applied. Apparently, Hitachi started doing this at the factory after a certain date.

Even before reading this thread, we thought she should look into getting this repaired, based on the clarity of the display (especially in HD). Now we're even more convinced as this display seems to be a Cadillac among the CRT RPTV's, according to other user threads.

So based on what we've told you, do you have any insights on how to approach fixing this? Lots of blue and yellow, no red. Well there may be some pastel pink occasionally, but no deep red shows up. In place of red, it's black. Clarity is good, and in lighter scenes where red isn't dominant, brightness is good.

I'm having her take photos of it to post here, if that will help. I hope to get those up tomorrow or early next week.

Thanks for your help and dedication to this topic. I've scanned Craigslist, and might buy a 56" Sony that's in our area. Model number wasn't listed, otherwise I'd ask for your recommendation on that.

-Isaac T.-

Yer right. It is a Cadillac. Good that you're keeping it going. BTW, if this is the short version, I'd hate to see the long one!



If it's hooked up via component, make sure all 3 of the plugs are in.

Also hook up some S video and try that out. If red is still missing on S, then you have a problem with the red circuitry, most likely. Guns very rarely go out.

Also check out that all 3 of the guns have their filaments lit. If it's not lit on red, there's your answer. Again, chances are it's not the red gun at fault.


b
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post #7625 of 11733
12/4/10 at 1:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradesp View Post

Hi Bob and Gang,

Well my 10 year old Pio Elite Pro 710HD appears to have a SERIOUS problem. The power went out on our house yesterday and when power returned the Blue Tube appears to have gone belly up! Below are some screen shots. Our local tech (who has repaired the set twice over the last 10 years under an extended warranty) will charge $175 just to have a look. Add to that a likely $1K+ Repair bill and I'm now thinking replacement.

Can any of you give me a likely scenario from these pics?

Couple of things: The convergence controls allow me to move the red and green tubes, but no amount of coaxing will move the blue...

Thoughts?

One of your 6 conv channels has bit the dust, the one that controls the vertical positioning of the blue. Needs standard conv IC replacement, which gets done all the time on these sets.

Should not cost you over $400 and could cost a lot less, depending on where you live in the country, among other things. Many DIYers do it themselves, for the cost of the parts, which should not exceed $75 and also could be less. Don't skimp on cheap knockoffs, tho. Original Sanyo's only, and if you find them really cheap they could be factory seconds.

Don't worry, and definitely don't consider buying new just because of this. It's a dirt cheap repair relative to the true value of the set, fully clean and dialed in.

b

PS - if it starts having spurious intermittent performance events, get that PS board resoldered immediately. Do not wait. Unplug it until fixed properly, and don't allow it back up to normal operating temp even once, until fixed PROPERLY. Meaning the shotgun approach, not the point source approach. It's a factory defect on these model year units. If you wish you can send it to me and I'll take care of it for you.
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post #7626 of 11733
12/4/10 at 1:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by splatee View Post

Have a quick question....

I bought a HDMI to DVI adapter to hook up my ps3 to my mitsubishi ws-55813 and i get the message on the screen that says to check conection and no signal. I did a manual reset for the ps3 so it would reset the video output and still nothing. I hooked it back up to my other set and it asked me to set the resolution. Now i read that if the set is not"HDC" compliant than the ps3 will not work HDMI over DVI. Sould i just get HDMI to component adapter?

Thank you

My guess is that you mean "HDCP compliant". That's what dictates that the encoding/decoding encryption of HDMI makes pirating video material impossible.

If you can't get it to work, get an HD Fury II or III and use component to get the final product to your set. If your HDMI circ looks anything like mine, I'd do that anyway, as my HDMI on my last gen ever Mit sucks bigtime.

Nothing's better than component for getting the signal to these sets with all coloration capacities intact, and governable at the display itself. RGB does not, and for that capacity requires an outboard scaler capable of color alteration. But component always works just fine, and when fully dialed in delivers a picture to die for.


b
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post #7627 of 11733
12/4/10 at 3:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradesp View Post

Hi Bob and Gang,

Well my 10 year old Pio Elite Pro 710HD appears to have a SERIOUS problem. The power went out on our house yesterday and when power returned the Blue Tube appears to have gone belly up! Below are some screen shots. Our local tech (who has repaired the set twice over the last 10 years under an extended warranty) will charge $175 just to have a look. Add to that a likely $1K+ Repair bill and I'm now thinking replacement.

Can any of you give me a likely scenario from these pics?

Couple of things: The convergence controls allow me to move the red and green tubes, but no amount of coaxing will move the blue...

Thoughts?

Hey Brad. I have your fix. Not sure where you're located but I'm in the Chicago area and I'm selling my Pristine Pro710HD for 500. You can buy mine and have yours for parts or swap parts from mine and save yourself a ton of cash on repair bills

Let me know if interested

Dave

815-444-0399
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post #7628 of 11733
12/4/10 at 3:58am
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the offer! I'm in Raleigh, so I'm not sure this makes much sense, plus I was already itching to finally replace my PIO since I've had it nearly 10 years! Your sale price also confirms what my wife said... "just go buy a new TV". Those words we're music to my ears :-)
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post #7629 of 11733
12/4/10 at 4:12am
Bob,

How do I know what Sanyo IC to purchase?
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post #7630 of 11733
12/4/10 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradesp View Post

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the offer! I'm in Raleigh, so I'm not sure this makes much sense, plus I was already itching to finally replace my PIO since I've had it nearly 10 years! Your sale price also confirms what my wife said... "just go buy a new TV". Those words we're music to my ears :-)

i'm only going to say this once and in the end it's up to you, but if you can fix your pioneer for less then $500 then do it. there is not a tv(plasma,lcd,led) out today that will have a better picture then your pioneer has in my opinion. i keep waiting for something to come out to match my hitachi crt 57f59 and i can't find anything. i do have a 2010 42G25 panasonic plasma in my living room and it has a good picture ,but nothing like my crt rear projection. good luck in whatever you do.
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post #7631 of 11733
12/4/10 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

My guess is that you mean "HDCP comnpliant".

If you can't get it to work get an HD Fury II. If your HDMI circ looks anything like mine, I'd do that anyway, as my HDMI on my last gen ever Mit sucks bigtime. Nothing's better than component for getting the signal to these sets.


b

Ok i will go and pick up a HDMI to component cable like i have on the xbox.

Also i picked up a can of Sprayaway and was going to clean the mirror and the optics. I have a service manual but it does not show how to take off the barrel lens on the crts guns. I see 4 screws that look like it holds it down. I do not want to completely do a deep cleaning but just under the top cover lens. I took a flashlight to the mirror and i can see a little haze but nothing to bad. I was going to use papertowls and then go over everything with a microfiber cloth.

Thank you
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post #7632 of 11733
12/4/10 at 9:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by splatee View Post

Ok i will go and pick up a HDMI to component cable like i have on the xbox.

Also i picked up a can of Sprayaway and was going to clean the mirror and the optics. I have a service manual but it does not show how to take off the barrel lens on the crts guns. I see 4 screws that look like it holds it down. I do not want to completely do a deep cleaning but just under the top cover lens. I took a flashlight to the mirror and i can see a little haze but nothing to bad. I was going to use papertowls and then go over everything with a microfiber cloth.

Thank you

You can't just pick up a passive cable that will do this on a normal, non-xbox bluray player. You need active circuitry in there, a HUGE, very sophisticated amount of it, and standalone bluray players are not allowed to contain it anymore. The HD Fury series is affordable and incredible in its performance. Owners of ceiling CRT projectors with pictures that need to appear at the screen far bigger than ours use it and are totally happy. It delivers stealth grade HD at even higher frequencies than our CRT RPTVs use.

If you want to be sure you clean your optics to their max and with total safety, contact me directly and I'll hold your hand over the phone as you do it. If not, you're on your own. 10 of the 28 surfaces in the light path need to be kept impeccable. Multiply the small area you saw the haze in on your mirror when you held a strong flashlight to it at a steep angle by probably a factor of 100 to see how dirty your mirror really is. I do not advise using microfibre towels in this application.

That advice at least scratches the surface, for you.

Good luck -

b
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post #7633 of 11733
12/4/10 at 9:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigdaddye View Post

i'm only going to say this once and in the end it's up to you, but if you can fix your pioneer for less then $500 then do it. there is not a tv(plasma,lcd,led) out today that will have a better picture then your pioneer has in my opinion. i keep waiting for something to come out to match my hitachi crt 57f59 and i can't find anything. i do have a 2010 42G25 panasonic plasma in my living room and it has a good picture ,but nothing like my crt rear projection. good luck in whatever you do.

+1!

The 710 was a $7,000 unit that many paid $12,000 for, and even when you could get them, you had to buy a Pioneer Elite Kuro plasma to even compete in the same arena as fully dialed in CRT. And even then the largest Kuro plasma pic made was not as big as your 710's is.



b
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post #7634 of 11733
12/4/10 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by splatee View Post

Ok i will go and pick up a HDMI to component cable like i have on the xbox.

Also i picked up a can of Sprayaway and was going to clean the mirror and the optics. I have a service manual but it does not show how to take off the barrel lens on the crts guns. I see 4 screws that look like it holds it down. I do not want to completely do a deep cleaning but just under the top cover lens. I took a flashlight to the mirror and i can see a little haze but nothing to bad. I was going to use papertowls and then go over everything with a microfiber cloth.

Thank you

Bob was really nice in his reply. I was surprised.

Go back through the forums. Look at the 510 forum too. This is one of the most repeated topics. Be very careful cleaning the lenses. They scratch really easily. Go in with paper towels only...dive in wet. Don't scrub. Don't use microfiber towels. Trust Bob. Use paper towels only.

Be very careful what you unscrew...only those four screws on the barrels. Touch the other screws and you will have a mess on your hands. The coolant in the CRT chamber will leak out onto your circuit boards and short or corrode them.

Taking apart the lenses is not trivial and usually not necessary. If you have some dust hairs in there, it won't matter... they are out of focus at this point. It's the "film" that is important. That's what darkens the picture. I would focus on the 10 important surfaces... the mirror, the tops of the lenses, the bottom of the lens at the bottom of each barrel and the clear coolant covers.

If you do take off the barrels, you will also need to redo your convergence. There is enough slop in there to knock it off on each one.

Good luck. If you are brand new at this, it is worth calling Bob. His rates are reasonable and it will only take you an hour or two max. There are a lot of subtleties to be learned the "hard" way.

Joe
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post #7635 of 11733
12/5/10 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

That advice at least scratches the surface, for you.

Good luck -

b

Hopefully, that's all he scratches.

Having Bob at the other end of the phone is VERY helpful. Been there, done that, highly recommended.
Michael
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post #7636 of 11733
12/5/10 at 10:12am
Thanks Bob. I'll look into it ASAP.
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post #7637 of 11733
12/5/10 at 11:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgruessing68 View Post

Bob was really nice in his reply. I was surprised.

Go back through the forums. Look at the 510 forum too. This is one of the most repeated topics. Be very careful cleaning the lenses. They scratch really easily. Go in with paper towels only...dive in wet. Don't scrub. Don't use microfiber towels. Trust Bob. Use paper towels only.

Joe has been one of my most avid students. Thanks for the nod, Joe! Hope you don't mind if I take apart one or two of the things you said, here...

"Dive in wet" would seem to say to get your paper towel wet first. Not on my watch, any more than using mircrofibre...

Quote:


It's the "film" that is important. That's what darkens the picture.

Since "film" is the Holy Grail of what we compare our pix to, the above is probably not the best time to be using that word. I would say "blanketing of dust" instead of "film" in this context...

Quote:


If you do take off the barrels, you will also need to redo your convergence. There is enough slop in there to knock it off on each one.

True, but only statically. The dynamic convergence usually doesn't need any redoing, unless you are a fanatic, like Joe and I are...




Quote:


Good luck. If you are brand new at this, it is worth calling Bob. ...it will only take you an hour or two max. There are a lot of subtleties to be learned the "hard" way.

Joe

Understatement to the max! I would add "...including potential permanent damage to your irreplaceable optics".

Again, thanks for the nod, Joe. Here's to many happy tweaking hours between us, both already past and still to come...



b
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post #7638 of 11733
12/5/10 at 5:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Joe has been one of my most avid students.
Again, thanks for the nod, Joe. Here's to many happy tweaking hours between us, both already past and still to come...



b

My pleasure, Bob. The true student never minds being corrected by the master. I have to remember to choose my words more carefully...sometimes my mind is several sentences ahead of my fingers... Anyway, the intention was to avoid having someone dry grind circular swirls into their lenses or worse and avoid that helpless feeling when you learn you just screwed up royally. So, I have achieved my goal with your reply...hopefully.

I admit I am a "fanatic" with regards to my toys (although apparently not with my communications skills!)... that's the first step, right?

Yes, Bob... I believe one day you will be working on my sets in person if we can stir up a tour in the NoVa/Greater Washington/Baltimore area...until then, this great forum will have to suffice.

Joe
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post #7639 of 11733
12/6/10 at 8:34am
Moved the Mits home intact, haven't reassembled it yet since I'm planning on cleaning the optics before putting the thing back together. I've been reading this thread for so long, I confused myself on the optics cleaning advice and gave the lenses a quick dry wipe with paper towels (d'oh) before I moved it. Luckily, I remembered the warnings about scrubbing and such, so I only gave each lens a single very light swipe with the towel (so light in fact, that most of the dust is still on there).

Going to grab some Sprayway this weekend and take care of it.
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post #7640 of 11733
12/6/10 at 9:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgruessing68 View Post

Yes, Bob... I believe one day you will be working on my sets in person if we can stir up a tour in the NoVa/Greater Washington/Baltimore area...until then, this great forum will have to suffice.

Joe

I would like that. Had a lot of fun on my last Baltimore tour, and hopefully some owners there would like me back to bring their sets back up to par, now that it's been something like 2 years.

And there's still 1 Mit 73" I could not complete because it needed a repair, which got completed only after I left...

Military Dress Uniform guy, are you out there?


b
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post #7641 of 11733
12/6/10 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Yer right. It is a Cadillac. Good that you're keeping it going. BTW, if this is the short version, I'd hate to see the long one!



If it's hooked up via component, make sure all 3 of the plugs are in.

Also hook up some S video and try that out. If red is still missing on S, then you have a problem with the red circuitry, most likely. Guns very rarely go out.

Also check out that all 3 of the guns have their filaments lit. If it's not lit on red, there's your answer. Again, chances are it's not the red gun at fault.


b

Really appreciate it, Bob.

As promised, here are some images from the display:

Weather Channel


Seinfeld




Spongebob Squarepants


Johnny Bravo (obvious missing red with additional featured character)


These are all from the HD Cable box over HDMI. Component produces the same results. Didn't try S-Video.

We also e-mailed a local reputable repair shop, and you both seem to be in agreement. They said it's the CRT board. Estimated cost of repair $200. Sound right to you?

Thanks again for everything, Bob. Do you have some published book or papers on calibrating CRT RPTV's? Any URL's to point me to? And would you recommend getting an LCD or DLP driven RPTV?

-Isaac T.-
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post #7642 of 11733
12/6/10 at 10:26am
Thread Starter 
The problem can't be just the red, since you have white, which is all 3 colors combined. The third pic has a huge patch of reddish/white in it. If you didn't have red, those whites would be turquoise. Unless your camera is lying to us, and the pink/white is simply a digital artifact...

So the problem has to be in the color decoding, not simply the red not being there. It IS, it's very evident in the whites. Put up a b/w grayscale pattern and you'll probably see that it's mostly fine, and to the pinkish side, verifying that there indeed is red happening at your screen. Always use a b/w grayscale pattern in this kind of context, may even be a good idea to pull the Pb and Pr component conn's, leaving only Y still conn'd, to get pure b/w.

Color bars patterns would help too, along with full-field patterns. You really need a full all-white and a full all-red pattern to really know what's going on with your set.

Therefore I don't expect it to be a bad red CRT socket board, not from what I've seen here.

Whatever it is, if you can get it repaired for $200, do it and be done with it. That's cheap.


b

PS - No I don't advise getting any of the new modalities, not when CRT is still so healthy and such a great long term investment as it is showing itself to be. This thread has been going strong for well over 4 years now, and is just as strong as ever.

Contact me directly and we can talk about that other stuff. No pm's please -
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post #7643 of 11733
12/6/10 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IsaacT View Post

Do you have some published book or papers on calibrating CRT RPTV's? Any URL's to point me to?

Start here:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457
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post #7644 of 11733
12/6/10 at 12:42pm
@LBNL: Thanks for the article! I'll bookmark it for later.
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post #7645 of 11733
12/6/10 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

The problem can't be just the red, since you have white, which is all 3 colors combined. The third pic has a huge patch of reddish/white in it. If you didn't have red, those whites would be turquoise. Unless your camera is lying to us, and the pink/white is simply a digital artifact...

Well... the camera could be lying. As I mentioned before, we adjusted hue and saturation to give her display something closer to what should actually be displayed. Should I have my co-worker reset to factory defaults and take new pictures of the display?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Contact me directly and we can talk about that other stuff. No pm's please -

Do you mean regarding additional troubleshooting with this display? Or on the request for additional published material? Sorry for being dense.

Thanks again for everything. We're totally jazzed that we get to help her out with this display that has so much life left in it.
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post #7646 of 11733
12/6/10 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
I would like that. Had a lot of fun on my last Baltimore tour, and hopefully some owners there would like me back to bring their sets back up to par, now that it's been something like 2 years.

b
I'm in NOVA and would sign up to have you come fix my tv. I have a 57 inch Hitachi that looks like crap. I'm debating wether to have it cleaned / recalibrated or get a plasma. It has not been touched for 5 years and you can tell.
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post #7647 of 11733
12/6/10 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueekb View Post
I'm in NOVA and would sign up to have you come fix my tv. I have a 57 inch Hitachi that looks like crap. I'm debating wether to have it cleaned / recalibrated or get a plasma. It has not been touched for 5 years and you can tell.
Call Bob. It could look like this (my 57F59A):





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post #7648 of 11733
12/7/10 at 9:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Start here:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Keep in mind that this only covers the grayscale, which is what ISF specializes in, and as such in many cases you can get that done locally these days. It does not cover any of the image structure elements that are essential in CRT RPTVs and front CRT projectors.

Finding a calibrator qualified to perform pro grade CRT work in the image structure dept. - optics cleaning, focusing, geometry, convergence, astigmatism and scheimpflug - can be daunting these days. But the results speak for themselves. Just look at Michael's pix! No new display of today's offerings out there as we speak can really do any too much better than that, and most of what's out there and eminently affordable, don't even come close. You gotta spend an arm and a leg to be able to buy something new out there that even plays in the same arena as what Michael has achieved on his display, as you can readily see from his screenshots.

b
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post #7649 of 11733
12/7/10 at 9:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IsaacT View Post

Well... the camera could be lying. As I mentioned before, we adjusted hue and saturation to give her display something closer to what should actually be displayed. Should I have my co-worker reset to factory defaults and take new pictures of the display?

As I said, get some pix of b/w material, like the original Casablanca, and shots of an all red and an all white pattern, which can be found on test discs.

Quote:


Do you mean regarding additional troubleshooting with this display? Or on the request for additional published material?

Yes.

Quote:


Thanks again for everything. We're totally jazzed that we get to help her out with this display that has so much life left in it.

You got it. So glad you're with us.

I invite others to join in and tell us your personal stories of why you also love CRT like we do here. Please! Be my guest, I am just the ringleader here, you guys are what makes this thread tick...



b
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post #7650 of 11733
12/7/10 at 9:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueekb View Post

I'm in NOVA and would sign up to have you come fix my tv. I have a 57 inch Hitachi that looks like crap. I'm debating wether to have it cleaned / recalibrated or get a plasma. It has not been touched for 5 years and you can tell.

Don't get a plasma. No need to.

The first step your set needs is to get rid of that bleariness you commented on, and restore your dynamic punch, like when it was new. That is done simply by making the entire 28 surface light path crystal clear again, like when it was new. It has not faded out - the pure pic is still there, just being monstrously covered up, in there.

After just that one op your pic will go from bleary to dazzling. I coach people every day over the phone about how to do that efficiently, thoroughly and safely, in all parts of the continent. And the world, if they want to call from offshore.

The 30KV of high voltage inherent in CRT use really does a number on the *bleck* that gets deposited on your optics over a 5 year period because of the static charge 30KV puts in the air, every minute the set is on. Our sets never had a chance but to become internally dirty over the years, year after year after year, with 30KV in play internally in our sets, where it crawls around in there and gets pretty much everywhere in there, with its static cling. And our pix become bleary as all get out because of that.

Contact me directly and I'll put us all in touch with each other so we can make this happen, in and near Baltimore. The first step is to have one of you step forward and become the local organizer and let me know who you are...

Can't wait to get ahold of some of your displays and make them capable of the kind of fidelity Michael's has! Doesn't matter what brand or size, the level of fidelity showing in Michael's screenshots is available with all well-treated HDready CRT RPTVs and CRT front projectors.

b
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