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Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please - Page 63  

post #1861 of 4623
8/26/06 at 11:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Translation 1: If the source (on disc) is compressed, you can output at any resolution without encryption. If the source is PCM, then it can not leave the system at > 16-bit/48khz.

Translation 2: You are toast if you want to use unprotected digital audio output on BD discs with PCM audio >16-bit/48khz :).
Hold, on. 20/48 lossless can be decoded to 20/48 LPCM and transmitted in the clear, but source 20/48 LPCM must be transmitted protected?

So the parse is:

1.4.1 A digital output of audio, or of the audio portion of other forms of Decrypted AACS Content, (in compressed audio format (such as AC3)) or (in Linear PCM format in which the transmitted information is sampled at no more than 48 kHz and no more than 16 bits).

Not

1.4.1 A digital output of audio, or of the audio portion of other forms of Decrypted AACS Content, (in compressed audio format (such as AC3) or in Linear PCM format) in which the transmitted information is sampled at no more than 48 kHz and no more than 16 bits.

You don't see that as a threat to lossless? As in the studios stick to 48/16 lossless or less because their most valuable content isn't protected.

Gary

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #1862 of 4623
8/26/06 at 11:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf
You don't see that as a threat to lossless? As in the studios stick to 48/16 lossless or less because their most valuable content isn't protected.

Gary
The most valuable content is the video, not audio. And we have that in the clear in analog domain without ICT. AACS if you will, sets the high bar for security, studios are free to go below that bar.

There is no concern at all regarding usage of higher resolution audio in lossless. So please, keep quiet. We have a freebee here :). Let’s not spoil it…
post #1863 of 4623
8/26/06 at 11:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf
Hold, on. 20/48 lossless can be decoded to 20/48 LPCM and transmitted in the clear, but source 20/48 LPCM must be transmitted protected?...
The player sends LPCM out via HDMI. Is not HDMI already copy protected via HDCP? I don't think it is "transmitted in the clear". Or am I missing something?

Bob
post #1864 of 4623
8/26/06 at 11:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr
The player sends LPCM out via HDMI. Is not HDMI already copy protected via HDCP? I don't think it is "transmitted in the clear". Or am I missing something?

Bob
This is not a concern for people with HDMI. But for PCs for example, we can output the audio over unprotected digital buses such as USB. Letting us use high-end external audio solutions. High-end companies may also transmit audio using special connections in the clear in these situations.
post #1865 of 4623
8/26/06 at 11:44pm
I was under the impression that SPDIF (optical or coax) spec didn't support 6ch 24/96 LPCM which is why the CE devices output DTS/DD5.1 via SPDIF. Is this just a CE device limitation and the actual SPDIF specification DOES allow 6ch 24/96 LPCM? I'm curious because these HDMI/HDCP videocards coming on the market today only have SPDIF passthrough for HDMI audio.
post #1866 of 4623
8/26/06 at 11:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
The most valuable content is the video, not audio. And we have that in the clear in analog domain without ICT. AACS if you will, sets the high bar for security, studios are free to go below that bar.

There is no concern at all regarding usage of higher resolution audio in lossless. So please, keep quiet. We have a freebee here :). Let’s not spoil it…
With concerts and music video collections, I suspect you're wrong. And I think you've even proposed that such discs are where lossless is MOST desired.

Explain why there IS a concern about LPCM, and no concern with lossless, when they'd be bit-wise identical out the digital interconnect?

Gary
post #1867 of 4623
8/27/06 at 12:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf
Explain why there IS a concern about LPCM, and no concern with lossless, when they'd be bit-wise identical out the digital interconnect?

Gary
The answer was in my previous post. Please read it again.
post #1868 of 4623
8/27/06 at 12:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
I think I am going to change my name to Roger and answer this one :). One does not need to wonder about the answer as it is clearly stipulated in AACS license agreement, page 81: http://www.aacsla.com/support/AACS_...ment_060215.pdf

1.4.1 A digital output of audio, or of the audio portion of other forms of Decrypted AACS Content, in compressed audio format (such as AC3) or in Linear PCM format in which the transmitted information is sampled at no more than 48 kHz and no more than 16 bits.
...
Translation 1: If the source (on disc) is compressed, you can output at any resolution without encryption. If the source is PCM, then it can not leave the system at > 16-bit/48khz.

Translation 2: You are toast if you want to use unprotected digital audio output on BD discs with PCM audio >16-bit/48khz :).
I am trying to figure out how you got those translations when the original doesn't say if the source is in a compressed format, it says if the output is in a compressed format or Linear PCM at 16/48 or less. Sure looks to me like that refers to the form of the output. If you think "A digital output of audio ... in compressed audio format ..." isn't talking about the form the output is, but instead what the form of the original source is, then I would like to hear how you read that in there. Especially when it refers to the "transmitted information" and not the source information. A source that is in a compressed audio format that is converted internally to Linear PCM does not have the digital output of that audio in a compressed format, it has it in a Linear PCM format.

Maybe Roger could address it if he knows what this is referring to.

--Darin
post #1869 of 4623
8/27/06 at 12:41am
Hey, my feelings are not hurt a bit if you want to get a second opinion (although Roger already provided it a few posts earlier :)). Heck, what the hell do I know? I am just a poor sole, working for a company who helped craft this language as a founding/active member of AACS. :)
post #1870 of 4623
8/27/06 at 1:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
I am just a poor sole, working for a company who helped craft this language as a founding/active member of AACS. :)
Maybe you should have written it so that it said the format the source is in instead of the format the output is in. :)

The output of the Toshiba player is not in TrueHD regardless of whether the source is in TrueHD. And there are button presses and things that can change it so that you don't have things in the source format for output anyway.

I think the language is reasonably clear that a 24/48 Linear PCM track could be output in 24/48 TrueHD form if the HTPC could convert it, but a 24/48 TrueHD track could not be output in a 24/48 Linear PCM form without encryption. If you think you can just take a 24/48 TrueHD track and output it as 24/48 lossless PCM without encryption, then you might want to talk to your lawyers about what those rules really say. What you think they were supposed to say doesn't matter as much as what they do say.

--Darin
post #1871 of 4623
8/27/06 at 2:44am
@Amir or anyone else who knows:

When will HD DVD be launched in Taiwan?

Thanks.
post #1872 of 4623
8/27/06 at 4:33am
Does anyone know if the HD DVD players 'vertically filter' the 1080i outputs?
post #1873 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes
Does anyone know if the HD DVD players 'vertically filter' the 1080i outputs?
Please clarify your "Vertically Filter"? Do you mean somehow soften the edges to reduce the interlacing you may see from time to time? Your question is somewhat vague to me.

Cjplay.
post #1874 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbryan
Wait. Are you saying that you don't think there will be HD DVD players with progressive output (including a 24p out) in the not too distant future? Or am I reading that wrong?

I though it was generally assumed that 1080p out would be on players in the near future (and 24p mode would likely be finding its way to some of them).

Can you clarify your statement about this please?
And I'm not saying it won't or will. I just mean that the IME's and TE's are running at 30p/30i/60i right now and would be a problem if Toshiba did put out a firmware allowing for true 24p. HOWEVER(!!), in theory, Toshiba could resolve that by offering to play the feature and IME's out today both in 30i/60i, but sans-IME play the feature at 24p. Again, all theory. I leave it to Toshiba/DVD Forum to remove the theory from this statement, hopefully.

Cjplay.
post #1875 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:28am
Had a quick question for any insider that know about film -> codec conversion. How good or bad can TV shows in 16mm film look? Are they stuck at a lower resolution?

edit:

thanks for the responses...

I asked because the first season of Xena: Warrior Princess was shot using 16mm (and this is generally thought to be the best season), and I think some of season 2 might have been as well.

The DVD set look HORRIBLE. Pixilated and ugly. Reviewers blamed it on the 16mm footage and bad MPEG2 compression. Some fans prefer the look of the VHS Season 1 set.
post #1876 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked
Thanks! The only Nvidia cards on the market with HDMI/HDCP at the moment are MSI's I believe. http://www.msicomputer.com/msiforms2/HDCP.asp
I need a place to purchase it. Please provide that link once available.

Cjplay.
post #1877 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:31am
Cjplay,

Had a quick quesiton.

Warner seems to be going neutral with upcoming releases matching the HD DVD in terms of using VC-1. Does Warner intend to follow in terms of offering the same special features in both HD DVD and Blu-ray. I know the movies in both formats have done so, but what about loaded discs like Last Samurai which supposedly almost hit 30 GB? Will they cut or wait for 50 GB, or do you not know or can't comment?
post #1878 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
Please clarify your "Vertically Filter"? Do you mean somehow soften the edges to reduce the interlacing you may see from time to time? Your question is somewhat vague to me.

Cjplay.

Sorry CJplay I was trying to keep it too generic. I was under the impression the standard practice was to filter out high frequency information to reduce interline flicker on interlaced displays, this certainly used to happen with 'older' 1080i outputs say from cable broadcasts (taking it closer to 800 lines resolution). Is this still the practice with this new generation of HD DVD and BD players as many of out displays nowdays are natively progressive?
post #1879 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by efralope
Had a quick question for any insider that know about film -> codec conversion. How good or bad can TV shows in 16mm film look? Are they stuck at a lower resolution?
16mm's resolution hasn't been tested on our end. With 35mm's resolution tested pretty firmly to be about 4kx2k (depending on aspect), I'd suspect 16mm could have a res in the 2kx1k range using modern filming. However, it's really how these were edited that makes it painful for me to watch Friends right now. In 1994, noone cared that telecined material on Avid's and other editing systems would look bad if they just "sped it up" and screwed up the 24p cadence. This may not hold true for Star Trek, Spencer for Hire, TJ Hooker, Dallas, Dynasty, The Fall Guy, Charlie's Angels, Buck Rogers, BSG (1970's), and other pre-digital days as they were cut on film. As for what was shot on 16mm, couldn't say. Neither would I really know if re-scanning them would be worth it to the studios (content dependant). And, if those rescans were worth it, what res would they produce.

Cjplay.
post #1880 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by efralope
Cjplay,

Had a quick quesiton.

Warner seems to be going neutral with upcoming releases matching the HD DVD in terms of using VC-1. Does Warner intend to follow in terms of offering the same special features in both HD DVD and Blu-ray. I know the movies in both formats have done so, but what about loaded discs like Last Samurai which supposedly almost hit 30 GB? Will they cut or wait for 50 GB, or do you not know or can't comment?
Can't comment for sure. I can only speculate that they'll try to match them as best as possible.
post #1881 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes
Sorry CJplay I was trying to keep it too generic. I was under the impression the standard practice was to filter out high frequency information to reduce interline flicker on interlaced displays, this certainly used to happen with 'older' 1080i outputs say from cable broadcasts (taking it closer to 800 lines resolution). Is this still the practice with this new generation of HD DVD and BD players as many of out displays nowdays are natively progressive?
I've seen the masters and can't see any real reduction in res. We take the 1080p24 lines and put them all on the disc. When I see my outputs on the monitors, it depends if the monitor does the flicker reduction, DI/IVTC, or nothing, which I've seen as well. However, the HDMI Toshiba out to my QC display shows me what quality/hard work I put into the content. So I'm very happy in that respect. I plead the 5th on the Sammy...

Cjplay.

Edit:
"Plead the 5th" to mean I've only seen the MPEG-2's which I don't work on. When the VC-1's are put in, I'll check them on there to see if it's the same or not. Maybe the DNR is only for the MPEG-2?

Cjplay.
post #1882 of 4623
8/27/06 at 6:59am
Thanks
post #1883 of 4623
8/27/06 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
No one said end-users are going to sign drivers (democoder is a developer, not an end-user). As a matter of fact, they must not. The owner of the driver must do it. And “most†of those driver owners are not end-users and 99.99% of them in commercial business, supporting hardware which was not free.

Again, end-users can run with unsigned drivers in Vista-32. And applications, if they think our requirements are too onerous, can simply not call the API to find out if anything is unsigned. But if a kernel driver becomes developed which steals the bits left and right out of the app, and their only recourse is to get their player revoked, and make the user unhappy or check and not play if the rouge kernel driver is there, I know which one they may choose. For themselves or their customer’s sake.

And someone writing a driver and sending it out unsigned, can choose whether the above impacts the level of distribution/usage of their app, to merit the paperwork to get the cert.

Remember that forgetting about this situation, badly written drivers are the #1 reason systems crash. An app does not bring the system down with it. A driver can. This is why in 64-bit servers we definitely require it. But in 32-bit, we look the other way. But it is a painful situation. Ideally, all drivers are not only signed, but fully tested and certified. But we get complaints like yours in principal, because people want to be in a hurry to put out untested drivers, so we don’t force it.

But as an end-user, this is not a good thing. Trust me, I have 20+ years of OS development experience and nothing scares me more than when an unsigned driver pops up, and the user happily says, “yes, go ahead and install.†It is like letting a stranger walk into your house for dinner and you pulling a chair for him, without asking him his name!

But we digress. Let’s follow up in another thread if you like as this topic, the few times it has come up, becomes argumentative in a hurry :).
Understood... I agree there ar valid reasons for this route. Installing "vddsiphon.sys" is not going to particulalry move the studios to start opening the HD floodgates for us. :)

I just wanted to provide some context for what this means.
post #1884 of 4623
8/27/06 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by efralope
Had a quick question for any insider that know about film -> codec conversion. How good or bad can TV shows in 16mm film look? Are they stuck at a lower resolution?

edit:

thanks for the responses...

I asked because the first season of Xena: Warrior Princess was shot using 16mm (and this is generally thought to be the best season), and I think some of season 2 might have been as well.

The DVD set look HORRIBLE. Pixilated and ugly. Reviewers blamed it on the 16mm footage and bad MPEG2 compression. Some fans prefer the look of the VHS Season 1 set.

I can't answer VC-1, but Veronica Mars is filmed in 16mm, I believe The OC was/is also. These are OTA network shows shown broadcast in HD in MPEG2. So, MPEG2 can handle it fine.
post #1885 of 4623
8/27/06 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
I need a place to purchase it. Please provide that link once available.

Cjplay.
MSI NX7600GT-VT2D256E HD @ ZipZoomFly
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...uctCode=321995

MSI NX7900GT-VT2D256E HD @ ZipZoomFly
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...uctCode=321994

I recall a review stating that the clock speed or memory speed of the video card tested affected the card's ability to accelerate HD-DVD playback...

NOTE: I just realized these are HDCP DVI cards. Not HDMI, therefore no SPDIF passthrough to test. The Asus 7600 should be released soon has SPDIF passthrough with HDMI:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...uctCode=324612
post #1886 of 4623
8/27/06 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by taz291819
I can't answer VC-1, but Veronica Mars is filmed in 16mm, I believe The OC was/is also. These are OTA network shows shown broadcast in HD in MPEG2.

So, MPEG2 can handle it fine.
What is it that it can handle.???

Yes, but . . . . . keep in mind.

Yes, OTA HD transmission IS MPEG-2 . . . . and at much higher bitrates than VC-1.
-- 19 +/- Mbs max for broadcast and 40+ Mbs coming off the satelite feeds.

UNLESS, there are multiple sub chans then the TOAL max bit bit rate of 19 Mbs can be split and the sub chans can look worse than VHS.

Also, keep in mind that the networks have to date specified COMPRESSED formats for HD deliverables -- D-5 and HD-CAM [ ugh ] This is slowly changing to data centric IE tapeless IE UN compressed. This is good.

SO, if you get a compressed master coming down the pipe, going thru a lossy local switcher and then the local broadcast bitrate is low you end up with artifacts on top of artifacts.

OBTW

I believe VERONICA MARS went to 35mm after the pilot . . . it looks like it did.
I'll ask around to confirm.

I've heard THE OC is still Super 16.


-30-
post #1887 of 4623
8/27/06 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincelluloid
What is it that it can handle.???


-30-

It can handle the details of 16mm just fine, as noted by the two shows I mentioned. I haven't seen the DVD set for The OC, but have for VM, and it looks good, nothing at all to be ashamed of as compared to Xena.

That's what I meant.

And I believe it's still shot in Super16, per:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/16....1.4.3.6&lc=en

My apologies to the Mods for going OT.
post #1888 of 4623
8/27/06 at 7:35pm
To any BD insiders,
Is it true that the Samsung cannot play BD50 discs? And, if so, when does Samsung and the BDA association plan to announce this so that those of us who are stuck with a BD player that doesn't perform up to BD spec can be compensated?
post #1889 of 4623
8/27/06 at 8:05pm
Quote:
The In Movie Experience on Warner discs and The Total Experience on Uni discs is a combination of sub video & audio, subtitles, graphics (animated and still), and iHD to control it all. The sub video is compressed at several resolutions at or below full-res D1 (720x480). However, each of the supported resolutions is either 480 or 240 high, so no 720x400 for a 16x9 IME like Dukes' IME was.

For your second question, it's very debateable. The bitrate of just the video is around 1-2Mbits ABR for at least the Warner IME. The TE for Uni could have it higher or lower. The bitrate of the sub video can be higher or lower as necessary, but it has a much smaller buffer than SD main video to facilitate the secondary video decoder. The audio is normally at 192Kbps DD+ or possibly lower. However, the internal mixer is controlled by iHD and lowers/raises the feature audio to accomodate the sub audio. The subtitles are just another regular subtitle stream that includes the IME's dialog in it.

The graphics subsystem supports several formats. These graphics can be loaded at one of 2 times. A) Before the feature starts during any element with low enough bitrate to support muxing up to 64MB of material and the A/V/S of that particular element. B) During the feature replacing an element in the 64MB buffer. That content must be muxed into the video at specific points before it is needed. However, it can be loaded at whatever bandwidth is left in the feature, so if only 20Kbits exist, then the graphic will be loaded at 2.5Kbytes per second, or if there's 1Mbit left, then it'll load at 125KBytes per second. However, 2 necessary graphics can't/shouldn't overlap each other in that part of the mux. So technically, the graphics loading has no definable "bitrate" in either case as it could range from 1Mbit to 29Mbits since the max mux rate is 30.24.

The iHD control is Javascript commands that tell it the X/Y coordinates and the scaling of the element(s) including the video, audio mixed levels, subtitle location, graphic location(s), and fadeins and outs. It's exactly never when an element is actually shown at full 720x480 since that's 1.50 aspect video. It's shown at 640x480 or stretched to 854x480 or below for 4x3 and 16x9, respectively. Most of the time, the scaling is in the 60% range.

I hope I answered your question.
Thanks CJplay, a lot of good info, thanks. To be honest I was looking for a simple answer, if there was a max hard limits for other stuff other then the main video and audio, some guys think there is a max between 4-6 mbps (can't remember the exact value). Just wanted to know if there was such a limit in the specs and if there was what would it encompass. I thought if there was such a limit it might onl apply to one PIP

I guess a more direct question would have been can someone add multiple parallel PIPs , for example could a studio decide a directors commentary and someone elses? (author if it comes from a book, main actor (s) ….)

Or Can a studio decide max 30mbps because it wants the .24 for menu changes because the menu is used for an in movie game (trivial questions, hot spotting in murder movie/show where you need to click the area where the clue is located before it goes away)
post #1890 of 4623
8/27/06 at 8:40pm
Quote:
IME video has a limit of 6 bmit/sec for MPEG-2 and 4 mbit/sec for advanced codecs.
thanks Amir, I am guessing only one PIP can show at a time, but could a studio have two available PIPs or more? (for example in the upcoming Indiana Jones could there be three commentary choices - Lucas, Spielberg, Ford) and if yes will it be limited to 4mbps total or could it be a bit more and in theory have 4mbps for each
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