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Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please - Page 66  

post #1951 of 4623
8/30/06 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Just because you won't ask doesn't mean everyone else here won't!

You can't point your fingers exclusively at the player(s) or the disc(s). Getting new technology on the street requires a very iterative process of testing and tweaking both the discs and the players. Without suggesting that it can or it can't, whether the Samsung can read a BD50 disc today is irrelevant, as long as it can read them when they're available. If it wasn't yet able to read BD50 discs would it have made sense to delay release of the player knowing that no BD50 discs would be on the market for some months and the players could be easily updated upon release of BD50? What if it could read BD50 discs from one manufacturer but not from another, or could read 95% of them but not the other 5%? There are a lot of shades of gray. The bottom line is that if the BD-P1000 won't play BD50 discs upon availability of the discs then people have a legitimate right to complain. If a firmware upgrade is required to play them, big deal.
Thanks for the response. I am assuming this is talkst8tese for "Yes, I do know the particulars." So, as promised, I won't ask what are. And, as you predicted, others are asking what they are.

Non particulars related question:

Would you agree that 1080p versus 1080i is a non issue, and HDMI 1.3 is totally unnecessary?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #1952 of 4623
8/30/06 at 12:02pm
Talk - since it is evident (as suspected) the PS3 (BLURAY) "spring launch" was marketing speak to ward off 360 and HD-DVD launches.... i have three strategic questions to follow up with...

1. did HD-DVD's $500 pricetag and good launch buzz effect bluray in launching significantly EARLIER than they wanted or prepared for?

2. regardless, can you explain how Bluray is so NOT ready for primetime in regards to players (sony included, no interactivity, no internet, etc.) and software (encoders, 2-layer, no combos) going into Fall 2006?

3. other than launching PS3 and some more SOS titles on shelves accordingly... do you see any sense of URGENCY in bluray mfg and studios? Customers and analysts are sorta shaking their heads in disbelief... is this ignored?

Your comments are appreciated.
post #1953 of 4623
8/30/06 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltby
Would you agree that 1080p versus 1080i is a non issue, and HDMI 1.3 is totally unnecessary?
I would not agree with either. :) We see too many bitstreams (~30%) that have errors to want to depend on 1080p24 --> 1080i30 --> 1080p60 conversions. Then there is PIP, which for HD-DVD, I believe could use a different 3-2 cadance timing than main video, especially if there is a bitstream error for either source.
post #1954 of 4623
8/30/06 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
We see too many bitstreams (~30%) that have errors to want to depend on 1080p24 --> 1080i30 --> 1080p60 conversions.
Keith, are you referring to bad edits and incorrect flags in the bitstream? Weren't those a problem on DVD because it was encoded at 480i60, thus it was incumbent on the studio to encode flags and perform clean edits correctly? Since both HD disc formats encode at 24p, doesn't that fix this problem? And, wouldn't a good inverse telecine processor ignore the flags and use other methods to detect and correct the cadence?
post #1955 of 4623
8/30/06 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Miller
Keith, are you referring to bad edits and incorrect flags in the bitstream? Weren't those a problem on DVD because it was encoded at 480i60, thus it was incumbent on the studio to encode flags and perform clean edits correctly? Since both HD disc formats encode at 24p, doesn't that fix this problem? And, wouldn't a good inverse telecine processor ignore the flags and use other methods to detect and correct the cadence?
There are times we have to ignore an entire header it so mangled, no matter what the source. Sometimes they don't even specify the correct resolution, etc. Wrong quantization matrix specified. The list goes on and on. The ability to handle bad bitstreams is one reason there is a delay between a demo and production-worthy design. It is much easier to go 1080p24 --> 1080p60 reliably as we have complete control over the timing and cadence. And no worry with film->video->film transition detection delays, handling mixed-mode content, etc. Why do unnecessary processing in the TV that can only add artifacts?
post #1956 of 4623
8/30/06 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macroblocker
I was hoping one of you insiders(Maybe Amir) could tell us what studio has decided to go blue? I heard there will be a anoucment this week. more Hype? If its Universal I will be very disappointed! Its upsetting that The other studios dont see what some of the rest of us see here in the forum.

It was at this point i was going to list all the advantages of HD DVD over Blu ray but you guys know this(and to be honest the list is quite long and i dent feel like typing it) :D
The announcement never said that the new blu-ray support would be a movie studio, it only said a new supporter. For all we know, it could be a company that will be producing Blu-ray recordable discs.
post #1957 of 4623
8/30/06 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
There are times we have to ignore an entire header it so mangled, no matter what the source. Sometimes they don't even specify the correct resolution, etc. Wrong quantization matrix specified. The list goes on and on. The ability to handle bad bitstreams is one reason there is a delay between a demo and production-worthy design. It is much easier to go 1080p24 --> 1080p60 reliably as we have complete control over the timing and cadence. And no worry with film->video->film transition detection delays, handling mixed-mode content, etc. Why do unnecessary processing in the TV that can only add artifacts?
Keith -

We've seen that no matter how the data is encoded players may decide to do some processing in 60i mode. Are there any players now or promised for either format that will indeed keep a 24p format through the whole chain? Including menus, PIP processing, etc?

- Tom
post #1958 of 4623
8/30/06 at 2:36pm
If the new DVDO scaler/deinterlacer can convert everything to a 1080p24 rate regardless of input type, so should a high-end HD DVD/BD player for those who want native 24p film mode.
post #1959 of 4623
8/30/06 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
It is much easier to go 1080p24 --> 1080p60
Hmmm...I'm confused. If you send the display 1080p60, won't it still need to perform inverse telecine? So, 1080p24 to the display becomes the only solution (or some multiple of 24)...in the absence of that, have we really solved the telecine problem? As Tom asked, is 24p through the entire system feasible?
post #1960 of 4623
8/30/06 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by b.greenway
Toshiba managed pretty well, both 15GB combo discs and HD30’s are in service and performing beautifully.
I said getting new technology out takes time. HD-DVD is just warmed-over old technology! :eek:
post #1961 of 4623
8/30/06 at 5:35pm
amirm, any comment on these?

http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802523[/url]

http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?cat...ducts_id=8540&

Is it some sort of breakout box out of the 360's AV port?
post #1962 of 4623
8/30/06 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
I said getting new technology out takes time. HD-DVD is just warmed-over old technology! :eek:
That’s the thing about reinventing the wheel, sometimes all you stand to gain is hardly worth just improving on what you already had.
post #1963 of 4623
8/30/06 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
I said getting new technology out takes time. HD-DVD is just warmed-over old technology! :eek:
Why create all the FUD in your responses? I know the BD side has loads of ground to make up, but it really doesn't help your plight. The people who come to these boards don't really buy into the spin and are here looking for actual information that may lead them to purchase a piece of equipment. At least Amir's posts contain actual information. I know this is the insider's thread, but it is supposed to be a Q&A thread where this kind of information isn't welcome from members and it shouldn't be welcome from insiders either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
what's the real hold-up with BD50:

Is it:

A) Replication issues (what have been typically reported here at AVS)

or

B) Hardware compatibility issues like Bill Hunt says at the digital bits about the Sammy not being able to play 50gig discs according to his industry tips

or

C) Both A and B.
My source indicated that the initial problems with "A" led to an inability to fully test causing "B". That person is working to fix issues with an as yet released BD player. I asked him to join up here and share some of his knowledge, but he turned it down.
post #1964 of 4623
8/30/06 at 6:32pm
I understand that some insiders don't want to comment on information until it becomes public through other means. I would like comments on the following interview with a Toshiba engineer. Relevant quote:

Quote:
DVDTimes: That's what I was going to ask you - what's happening with that. Is it likely we'll see a 45gb disc out?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: The triple layer disc is not actually due out until next year. I believe that the actual book type will not be ratified by something like June next year [2007]. So, announcing they can read triple layer is very odd.
DVDTimes: It'd have to go through the DVD Forum, wouldn't it?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: Yes, definitely. The version of the book we're on now is something like 0.4, which is a very early stage. Until the actual format is approved by the Forum, we're expecting about another four months for it to go through. And then, they'd upgrade the book to 0.8. Then, they do physical layer testing and things of that nature, so we're expecting the book type to be released probably mid-next year.
So then, the DVD forum is moving foward with the adoption of TL45?

(Kudos to the interviewer, I think that's pretty big news.)
post #1965 of 4623
8/30/06 at 6:43pm
@CJPlay

can you comment or provide insight/reason to why corpse bride is being released for bd on 9/26 before any release on hd dvd?

this was on the very first hd dvd demo disc.

tia
post #1966 of 4623
8/30/06 at 7:20pm
Skogan, is there a link available for that interview? I'd be interested in reading it
post #1967 of 4623
8/30/06 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebuzz#836
My source indicated that the initial problems with "A" led to an inability to fully test causing "B".

Thanks. Therefore the problem A no longer exists? Mass DL replication is a go?
post #1968 of 4623
8/30/06 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT
Skogan, is there a link available for that interview? I'd be interested in reading it
Here is the link:

http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=62615
post #1969 of 4623
8/30/06 at 7:46pm
lymzy:

I think they couldn't make ANY for the "A" question. I imagine that they can get 20% yields by now with BD50-ROM discs (guessing).
post #1970 of 4623
8/30/06 at 7:49pm
I'd like to know if Corpse Bride will use the same VC1 compression stream for both the HD DVD and BD versions (ie, rendering any differences in PQ to be player-induced).

Hey... I'm amazed by that interview talking about 45 gig HD DVD being pushed through with the expectation for ratification sometime next year. Wow. That's some serious news and I can't believe it hasn't created more of a stir. At that point, BD has the advantage of greater bandwidth as its primary distinguishing mark, without the dramtatic advantages in raw storage.

Can any insiders comment? Amir?

Quote:
Hmmm...I'm confused. If you send the display 1080p60, won't it still need to perform inverse telecine? So, 1080p24 to the display becomes the only solution (or some multiple of 24)...in the absence of that, have we really solved the telecine problem?
The context of the problmes with IVT not being performed are generally talked about in regard to deinterlacing where any other method of progressive-scan conversion results in a degraded picture that doesn't represent the true frame original.

In terms of judder/frame-cadence with a "true" progressive signal sourced from 24fps film, you're right that 1080p60 would still not be an ideal solution as it augments judder issues. I spoke with the tech from the new iscan scaler/deinterlacer and they said that it would do IVT with 1080p60 sources from film material and output them as 1080p24!!! I hope that some display devices get smart and add an option to do the same thing... or at 48 or 72Hz which would be easier when intermixing 60i native material that may be interspersed in some material.
post #1971 of 4623
8/30/06 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5
lymzy:

I think they couldn't make ANY for the "A" question. I imagine that they can get 20% yields by now with BD50-ROM discs (guessing).

RE: Making ANY DL - That's right. I suppose they at least have some to test with now. I'm unsure what the yield percentage is, my source doesn't work on that half of the business. ;)
post #1972 of 4623
8/30/06 at 8:08pm
Everybody here should read that link, lots of technical issues in the formats discussed.

From that story: http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=62615
Quote:
In Japan, another thing I think's grand - a lot of the discs in Japan are actually twin format.
DVDTimes: That's right, some in the States as well.
Jim Armour, Toshiba: Just stick it in a normal DVD player and watch it, and when you've got enough money to buy yourself your [HD], just turn it around, slap it in - or if it's dual, just slap it in. Dual has a 15gb dual layer and a 4.7gb red layer.

DVDTimes: The titles that we've had so far that have been on a combo format, they've had an HD side that's 15gb - only a single layer so far. I think I read that that's going to be sorted, so it's going to be dual layer HD as well as dual layer DVD on the other side.
Jim Armour, Toshiba: That's correct, that's going to happen. Because the DVD format is already defined. Pressed media, double-sided, double-layer - so we take that and we make one side blue [HD] and one side red [SD]. The format already exists on normal DVD, it's just that it was a wee bit too expensive to make and no-one required it up until now. On HD format of course, it could become very interesting.

DVDTimes: Did the Blu-ray camp have a similar idea with the combo discs?
Jim Armour, Toshiba: Well the combo discs - it would be illegal - because one side would be DVD compliant, wouldn't it? They'd have to ask the DVD Forum for permission. Another thing is, their physical format doesn't allow it, because their media is actually 1.1mm thick acro, with a 0.1mm hard top coating - so what are you going to put the back layer on?
DVDTimes: Right, no room left.
Jim Armour, Toshiba: DVD is two times 0.6mm discs glued together - whether it's HD DVD or standard DVD, they're both 0.6mm polycarbonate discs, glued back to back. Blu-ray is different - 1.2mm plus 0.1. So, it's physically impossible, using their registered format, so they'd have to go with DVD format, which would mean problems with the DVD Forum - because DVD Forum has the patent on 0.6mm times two.
DVDTimes: Ah right, right. Patents again.
Insiders: Is that accurate that Blu-ray can never have a SD DVD and Blu-ray combination disk released and that HD DVD DL30/DVD9 combination disks will soon be released?
post #1973 of 4623
8/30/06 at 8:17pm
I mention that everytime somebody asks where BD/DVD combos are, but nobody ever listens to me.
post #1974 of 4623
8/30/06 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
I said getting new technology out takes time. HD-DVD is just warmed-over old technology! :eek:

So I guess that BD using a OLD technology like Java was going backwards and really should have used the NEW technology like iHD then? And should have MANDATED NEW audio Advanced audio instead of the LPCM that I have on my laserdiscs? Oh and maybe used NEW transfers of films instead of the ones that seem to have come from VHS tapes? Oh yeah and NEW codecs instead of 10 year old Mpeg2?
post #1975 of 4623
8/30/06 at 8:26pm
Quote:
So I guess that BD using a OLD technology like Java was going backwards and really should have used the NEW technology like iHD then? And should have MANDATED NEW audio Advanced audio instead of the LPCM that I have on my laserdiscs? Oh and maybe used NEW transfers of films instead of the ones that seem to have come from VHS tapes? Oh yeah and NEW codecs instead of 10 year old Mpeg2?
Brilliant. :D
post #1976 of 4623
8/30/06 at 8:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tormond
So I guess that BD using a OLD technology like Java was going backwards and really should have used the NEW technology like iHD then? And should have MANDATED NEW audio Advanced audio instead of the LPCM that I have on my laserdiscs? Oh and maybe used NEW transfers of films instead of the ones that seem to have come from VHS tapes? Oh yeah and NEW codecs instead of 10 year old Mpeg2?
APPLAUSE :D
post #1977 of 4623
8/30/06 at 8:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tormond
So I guess that BD using a OLD technology like Java was going backwards and really should have used the NEW technology like iHD then? And should have MANDATED NEW audio Advanced audio instead of the LPCM that I have on my laserdiscs? Oh and maybe used NEW transfers of films instead of the ones that seem to have come from VHS tapes? Oh yeah and NEW codecs instead of 10 year old Mpeg2?
Take it easy, guys. One argument at a time :p
Or we might loose the only BD insider we have left here :D .

Diogen.
post #1978 of 4623
8/30/06 at 8:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
I said getting new technology out takes time. HD-DVD is just warmed-over old technology! :eek:
No questions here. Just felt it was appropriate to observe that the above quote doesn't sound like a very positive attitude to me.

Let me be the guy with the broken record about MOVIES.

The ultimate issue is not technology but IMAGE and SOUND QUALITY and more specifically image and sound quality NOW not later.

Your response infers that only NEW technology is good whereas REFINED
technology is not so good.

That is like saying that a Porsche is merely a warmed over Volkswagen.

Nope.

To use your term -- I will take a "warmed over" refined old technology THAT ACTUALLY DELIVERS and DELIVERS NOW over a new technology that does NOT deliver.

. . . . and to be fair and balanced Blu Ray's choice of MPEG-2 is the OLD TECHNOLOGY that is a problem.

I want to watch MOVIES not tech . . . . it really IS just that simple.


BOTH Blu Ray and HD-DVD would do well to keep that in mind each and every day . .
especially the former.

SOMETIMES we don't NEED a NEW TECHNOLOGY . . . . just one that works good.



-30-
post #1979 of 4623
8/30/06 at 9:02pm
Please don't scare him away. ;)

Talk, we need you here even if some of us try to beat you up like a pinata. :D

You're our main opportunity to get Blu-ray info and convey our concerns to the Blu-ray decision makers.
post #1980 of 4623
8/30/06 at 9:28pm
Question for the codec experts:

Is MPEG-2 a mature codec for HD playback? MPEG-2 is very mature for SD-DVD playback bit rates but what about for the higher level encodes. Are the negative artifacts completely linear with regard to bit rates or are some more logarithmic in nature ie; become significantly worse the higher the data rate being compressed. I wonder this because the best DVD’s coded with MPEG-2 look pretty good to me and I fail to see why the initial Sony releases couldn’t put out a great picture with the 25GB’s. Is there much room left for improving MPEG-2 with regard to HD video?

Personal question for Amir (hopefully not under NDA :) )

How many e-correspondences do you go through in an average day (all e-mails, posts on AVS, text messages, etc..) Just curious, must be a ton.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work insiders.

Regards.
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