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Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please - Page 152  

post #4531 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
I suppose selective memory loss is quite useful so I will jog that jetlagged memory. The phraseology was used by you several months ago to describe the Blu-ray friendly studios that you implied have first dibs on those “science fiction†discs……………you know BD50’s.
Don't worry, BD-J is doing well to waive the "science fiction" flag for BR as of late. Ofcourse, paidgeek's hint of player compatiablitiy issues using BD-J goes a long way to the mummerings regarding the issue, unless you want to start calling him a liar :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9229299
"We have been experimenting with Java code and are getting the results we want on most, but not all players. I think it will pay to wait a bit longer to see how the player firmware updates progress."
post #4532 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
The phraseology was used by you several months ago to describe the Blu-ray friendly studios that you implied have first dibs on those “science fiction†discs……………you know BD50’s.
As you know, I'm not a fan of what Amir does here in many cases (and now we'll see if Ben follows in his footsteps since he is filling in for Amir), but to be fair my memory is that Amir was referring to the book "Animal Farm". Specifically the section where the rules started out containing one that said, "All Animals Are Created Equal". With the pigs being the smartest animals, they became the leaders and in reference to the communist party in Russia, changed the rules. That one became something like, "All Animals Are Created Equal, But Some Are More Equal Than Others." I believe Amir did paraphrase that with something about the pigs being at the top, but I don't think his take was as bad as your wording.

--Darin
post #4533 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez
Now that is interesting. Just how often do you have to employ that level of "twiddling" to achieve your desired result. Is this tool used solely to reduce bit rate vs. full frame tuning ??

I have heard of similar things being done in post (DI) to target color timing and brightness, but didn't know of the equivalent in the encoding process. Is this exclusive to VC-1 ??

b2b
I know!! It was so cool to use, but it's brand new. We've used it very sparingly as the possibilities to go out of control are numerous. Mostly to fix a couple dark spots in the picture to make them look better without blowing out the buffer because we modded the whole frame.

As far as I know it is for MS' VC-1 Pro encoder. I've not seen it on AVC, but I'm sure it's possible.

Cjplay.
post #4534 of 4623
Thanks Darin that straightens things up a bit and also shows how others are already twisting and spining things
post #4535 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
I know!! It was so cool to use, but it's brand new. We've used it very sparingly as the possibilities to go out of control are numerous. Mostly to fix a couple dark spots in the picture to make them look better without blowing out the buffer because we modded the whole frame.

As far as I know it is for MS' VC-1 Pro encoder. I've not seen it on AVC, but I'm sure it's possible.

Cjplay.
CJ,

Do you choose dark scenes because they often require more bits than the encoder logic assigns (thinking its dark so we can see it, drop the bitrate)? Was this applied to BB or V?
post #4536 of 4623
Wow. Now that 2 major principals in the 'war' are represented here it's not hard to see how nasty it must get behind the scenes, in the backrooms..

Question on studio support status...
Robert (Value Electronics) alluded in another thread to the Wiensteins and possibly 'smaller studios' pitching support to hd-dvd format soon.

Is Wiensteins position on the formats offiically exclusive or neutral? What other 'smaller studios' are uncommitted either way?
post #4537 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim
Robert (Value Electronics) alluded in another thread to the Wiensteins and possibly 'smaller studios' pitching support to hd-dvd format soon.
Weinstein Co. already has titles out for HD DVD.

e.g. The Matador.

Gary
post #4538 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceflow
CJ,

Do you choose dark scenes because they often require more bits than the encoder logic assigns (thinking its dark so we can see it, drop the bitrate)? Was this applied to BB or V?
i would be interested in this as well, particularly since i always get confused whether the human visual system detects differences more readily in the lower frequencies (dark areas) or in the higher frequencies (brighter areas)...i think it is the former?
post #4539 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf
Weinstein Co. already has titles out for HD DVD.

e.g. The Matador.

Gary
Understood, but in this post exclusivity is referred to.
post #4540 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim
Understood, but in this post exclusivity is referred to.
Apologies. I misunderstood your point.

Gary
post #4541 of 4623
dear amirm,

I am using my 360 for hd dvd playback and i must say over vga it does preform slightly better than my hd-a1, but my question is this, in the near future will there be any way for the 360 hd dvd add-on to get full dolby true hd out of the 360 to a reciever? I ask this becuase i find the 360 to be a really good hd dvd player. i mean the video quality is great, the audio quailty could be better, but it alows me to stay on live and vioce chat with my buddys about a movie we are both watching!
post #4542 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner
They would be science fiction if the market for BD players was what was estimated. BD lucked out in the sense that there is far less consumer demand for the discs, so the limited BD-50 capcity so far has been sufficient.
Ben,

Your are incorrect to presume that "luck" has something to do with the BD studios ability to release product on BD50. The Sony manufacturing plants are scaling capacity to support the mix of product requested by their customers. As unit sales increase geometrically, the requirements will be covered.
post #4543 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
i would be interested in this as well, particularly since i always get confused whether the human visual system detects differences more readily in the lower frequencies (dark areas) or in the higher frequencies (brighter areas)...i think it is the former?
Ben I believe that it is the later as a Snellen test utilizes high contrast letters under ideal lighting conditions just for that fact.

Keep in mind though that the combination of visual acuity and contrast sensitivity is the true measure of how well one can “seeâ€.

And if you add motion to the object, that complicates the whole matter. :eek:
post #4544 of 4623
Yes, humans are more sensitive to a change in absolute light levels at lower brightness.

Think about turning on a 100 watt bulb in a room lit by moonlight - blinding. Then turn on the same bulb in the same room when the sun is up - hard to even notice.

It's really the ratio between the two that matters.

However, we take advantage of that in compression by applying a perceptually uniform gamma curve to our coding, so that going up one coded unot of brightness delivers the same perceptual increase no mattwr where in the curve it is.

However, QA monitors are often run with very high brightness, throwing off the perceptually uniform curve, so that the didderence between, say the luma levels of 16 and 17 are very visible, so any blocking there could be apparent.

Since codecs for spec on up are designed with the assumption of perceptual uniformity, tweaking can be needed to make sure those subtle blacks look perfect.

We've done a ton of innovation around making blacks look better without havin to crank up the bitrate.
post #4545 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek
Your are incorrect to presume that "luck" has something to do with the BD studios ability to release product on BD50. The Sony manufacturing plants are scaling capacity to support the mix of product requested by their customers. As unit sales increase geometrically, the requirements will be covered.
Why the bundled Talladega Nights on BD-25, then?

Given that the PS3 launched so late and in such small numbers, I presume the original plan was for high-volume BD-50 replication by December. Seems like there should have been a lot of excess BD-50 capacity, unless the Sony plants had more advance warning of PS3 delays and shipment constraints than the rest of the industry.
post #4546 of 4623
The PS3 being shipped with a BD25 instead of BD5 is an interesting topic.

You can easily deduce that it would be better to have multiple titles out on BD50 with only 20-30k production run than say, one title with 500k. Having the multiple titles out on BD50 in much lower quantities gives the illusion of no BD50 shortages.

"Double dipping" is easily out of the equation since the PS3 and the retail BD50 edition are closely launched. This simply leaves only one logical reason and that is Sony did not want to use up the stock pile of BD50's on one title and have other studios look at them wondering why BD50’s are inaccessible to them but being given away "free." 500k BD50 TDN movies would have gone a long way to convince me that BD50 are not a scarce commodity.

Also, can anyone outside of Sony produce or is selling BD50 ROM media yet? Meaning if a smaller replicator gets their BR line in place can they produce BD50 ROM media at the same level of efficiency as Sony themselves or is the secret sauce not part of the purchase?
post #4547 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmerly
Amir or any other MS insider,
What is the word on adding H264 decoding to the Xbox 360? I love using the 360 as an extender and I stream high def mpeg2 all the time to my big screen. I would love to be able to stream H264 encodes as well. Any chance this is in the pipeline?
Well, obviously there is H.264 decoding for HD DVD already in there.

Beyond that? The real challenge is that H.264 is just a codec, and it's a codec that can live in many different flavors in many different container formats with many different audio codecs.

For example, QuickTime is the most widely distributed platform for encoding/playback of "MPEG-4" content, including H.264. But what percentage of files off Usenet or Bittorent can it play out of the box? 10%?

If the community agreed on the standard profile@level, audio codec, and file format for files using H.264, that's be a big help in us looking at this eventually :).
post #4548 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy
Will there be a public release of the VC-1 PEP? or anything that can output VC-1 elementary streams?
Right now, we provide it to pretty much anyone involved in HD DVD or BD production sufficiently far enough along that they can mux a .vc1 file (and anyone who meets the above bar, is making professional discs, and doesn't have PEP, PM me!).

PEP itself isn't really a product. It's a tool build by our codec team, but it isn't the kind of thing that we'd put in the hands of your typical home user, or even your typical video professional. You're still typing command-line stuff in at a number of stages, for example.

We are of course working hard to get our codec technology widely deployed. I'd expect to see VC-1 support included in all HD optical disc authoring products sooner rather than later. Different products will include different subsets of the PEP technology - stuff like region of interest encoding is only going to appeal to a small section of the market, for example.
post #4549 of 4623
Well ok now, everything else aside I think it's fairly obvious why Sony would use single-layer discs for the pack-in. Firstly, it's a pack-in to begin with, and Sony is eating a cost there. It's a Sony studio, off of a Sony replication line, going into a Sony system... every one of those divisions is making a bit of financial sacrifice under that equation. And keep in mind also, that at 500k, this title has automatically become the most prolific of *all* HD titles so far this HD generation... by about 2.5 times over. And that only because the obvious runner-up is Microsoft's own pack-in, King Kong@ ~150k or whatever it is. Every other title on either Blu-ray or HD-DVD leading up to these consoles entering the race would almost by default have sold less than 50k at retail. (How many have been sold into retail, I just don't know.)

So, I think asking for BD50 on that freebie is just sort of a self-answerable kind of thing.
post #4550 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya
So, I think asking for BD50 on that freebie is just sort of a self-answerable kind of thing.
The answer I keep coming back to is that, in spite of global demand for BD overall and BD-50 in specific being much less than anticipated, there still wasn't enough capacity for BD-50 replication to do TD on a single disc.
post #4551 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner
The answer I keep coming back to is that, in spite of global demand for BD overall and BD-50 in specific being much less than anticipated, there still wasn't enough capacity for BD-50 replication to do TD on a single disc.
The PS3 bundle disc was provided as an introduction to Blu-ray movies with a slightly reduced version of the retail disc. It was never intended to be a statement piece on Blu-ray replication.
post #4552 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner
The answer I keep coming back to is that, in spite of global demand for BD overall and BD-50 in specific being much less than anticipated, there still wasn't enough capacity for BD-50 replication to do TD on a single disc.
Well, I guess we don't see eye to eye on this one. To me, whether there was or was not the DL capacity, it just makes sense that this freebie's costs be hedged where possible. Whether there is or is not capacity to replicate 500,000 of these things in one run - which by the way again, this is the first time on *either* format that disc volume has been run - the single-layer line just makes economic sense. Why is it you feel if DL capacity was "there," they would have used DL otherwise? Would the economic argument against it still not make total sense?
post #4553 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner
The answer I keep coming back to is that, in spite of global demand for BD overall and BD-50 in specific being much less than anticipated, there still wasn't enough capacity for BD-50 replication to do TD on a single disc.
What the hell is this bull**** fact-free garbage propaganda non-question doing in this thread?
post #4554 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek
The PS3 bundle disc was provided as an introduction to Blu-ray movies with a slightly reduced version of the retail disc. It was never intended to be a statement piece on Blu-ray replication.
Given the "Blu Ray Trojan Horse" role that the PS3 is hoped to be to assist establishing the format, paidgeek are you aware of any internal discussion regarding what sort of experience statement Sony was hoping to make?

I agree that most consumers really have no idea of the challanges in replicating a SL vs. DL disc, so a but they ARE very aware of what the content looks like. Was the intent to "blow their socks off!", or simply give them something so they didn't have nothing to play?

It would seem that several stellar releases helped establish the early postive HD DVD buzz... it would seem that the BDA would want to counter that.
post #4555 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare
Given the "Blu Ray Trojan Horse" role that the PS3 is hoped to be to assist establishing the format, paidgeek are you aware of any internal discussion regarding what sort of experience statement Sony was hoping to make?

I agree that most consumers really have no idea of the challanges in replicating a SL vs. DL disc, so a but they ARE very aware of what the content looks like. Was the intent to "blow their socks off!", or simply give them something so they didn't have nothing to play?

It would seem that several stellar releases helped establish the early postive HD DVD buzz... it would seem that the BDA would want to counter that.
I don't pretend to understand the subtle reasons for certain titles/timing, but I did have a chance to listen in on some of the discussions on this title. Sony has to consider who the buyer is for the PS3 and what will not offend the red or the blue states. Some of the best looking BD titles are not for family viewing....even in my household.
post #4556 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner
The real challenge is that H.264 is just a codec, and it's a codec that can live in many different flavors in many different container formats with many different audio codecs.

For example, QuickTime is the most widely distributed platform for encoding/playback of "MPEG-4" content, including H.264. But what percentage of files off Usenet or Bittorent can it play out of the box? 10%?
Well, the digital picture frame I bought my wife's grandmother for $130 has played every MPEG-4 video (DivX, Xvid, FFDShow, etc.) I've thrown at it. If a no-name picture frame can do it, surely you can put in codec support sufficient to cover the majority of content out there.[/quote]
post #4557 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek
The PS3 bundle disc was provided as an introduction to Blu-ray movies with a slightly reduced version of the retail disc. It was never intended to be a statement piece on Blu-ray replication.

I'd think ushering in BR to the masses and especially the early buyers who're likely more enthusiastic about BR than the common folk, you'd want to overwhelm their senses and put on one hell of a demo.

With TDN, having lossless audio, cool interactivity features (the TDN menu's look like they were designed in a kindergarten competition) and a plethora of extra's in 1080P would go a long way to setting that standard.

Having finally had time to watch TDN that came with my PS3 today, I can easily say it doesn't demo well for BR. No 3D pop, the audio was not impressive (where's the bass!?).

It's not about BD50 really, it's about hitting a homerun out of the gate and winning the word of mouth which goes a long way. Even 2 BD25 discs would have been cool. Infact, some like the idea they're getting a "2 Disc Limited Edition!" movie for free with their PS3.......

But really, it's all over and done with but my point is that sometimes Sony should think about taking some of the marketing and PR dollars and shifting them over to the execution side of things.
post #4558 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
i would be interested in this as well, particularly since i always get confused whether the human visual system detects differences more readily in the lower frequencies (dark areas) or in the higher frequencies (brighter areas)...i think it is the former?
Actually humans discriminate tonal differences better in the highlights. You need bigger changes in the shadows. You need only a small dLog change of about 0.05 to distinguish a diffuse white from a specular highlight on a print. But something more like 0.20 dLog change to distinguish shadow detail from maximum black.

If the consumer misadjusts the black level up, bringing the shadows up nearer in the direction of the highlights (making the blacks/dark tones brighter) since that is in the direction of more discrimination, you start to see more errors in the shadows, which wouldn't be visible if the dark tones were being watched at their (correct), low brightness values.
post #4559 of 4623
It is possible to add iHD feature (ADV_OBJ) for HD-DVD (HVDVD_TS folder) authored by Ulead DMF5plus ?
Thank you.
post #4560 of 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbdestroya
Why is it you feel if DL capacity was "there," they would have used DL otherwise? Would the economic argument against it still not make total sense?
DL is way too expensive. Sony is losing tons o' dough on the small runs, so they can't ramp up. Lymzy's Beijing suaree was telling. BDA said Panny and Sony would be delivering BD-50, not Chinese replicators. As Alex has said, no one other than Sony makes BD-50 now.
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