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480i vs 480p vs 720p dvd to crt

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
I searched in the forum archives and couldn't find a good answer to this...

I have a BarcoData 808 (Non-S) projector and a Samsung upscaling DVD player. I run component video through a V-Digi component-RGB converter from the DVD player to the projector input 5 at 720p. Here'e the question...

Is there a good reason to upscale? The DVD's native resolution, as I understand it, is 480i. Line doubling to 480p can be good for the projector to improve the scanning between lines, but why should I then use 720P upscaling? All this does is a lot of math on the signal to make it larger, but I could just create a new convergence on the Barco for 480p. Sometimes on DVDs (Kill Bill 2) there is terrible compression on blacks at 720P - it seems like a black blob is oozing over the shadowed side of the actors' faces. I haven't tried using 480i or 480p to see if it's better bacause it requires a reconvergence of the projector, which is easy but time consuming.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Tom
post #2 of 25
ummm-

because it is a much better picture...


The issue you are having is the samsumg scaling or the V-Digi transcoder. You do not need to do a full setup for different resolutions (called blocks in Barco land)

just copy the fully setup block to the new one.

I would suggest that you get Kims transcoder - for $150 it is a great bargain.
post #3 of 25
some of those transcoders do not strip the sync off of video signal. my v-digi was one of them and did the same thing you describe.
post #4 of 25
DVD when reconstructed for film content is really 480p24. You should be running an 808 at about 720p. Upscaling with quality processing does improve the image as it does with any image, when done correctly. Basic imaging theory.
post #5 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgilmartin View Post

I searched in the forum archives and couldn't find a good answer to this...
I have a BarcoData 808 (Non-S) projector and a Samsung upscaling DVD player. I run component video through a V-Digi component-RGB converter from the DVD player to the projector input 5 at 720p. Here'e the question...
Thanks
Tom

Well first off the sammy, and almost any other DVD player does NOT upsacle through component, only through the DVI port. I think your most likely getting progressive to your transcoder. The severely crushed blacks are from the transcoder or possibly the DVD player. To transcode a signal well you need a good unit. When done properly, 720P (even upscaled) should be a lot sharper on a big screen projection set-up.
Your cheapest solution is lose the DVD player and the transcoder and get a Momitsu V880 which outputs upscaled VGA directly from DVI-I. Or, get a better transcoder and a better DVD player lie a NeuNeo HVD2085
http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/rev...main16643.html
Or forget about upscaling altogether, get a Toshi HD-DVD and a DVI to RGB transcoder.
post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgilmartin View Post

I searched in the forum archives and couldn't find a good answer to this...
Is there a good reason to upscale? The DVD's native resolution, as I understand it, is 480i.

Which usually is a telecine transfer of a 24fps film, meaning you have all the information there to reconstruct 480p at 24 (NTSC) or 25 (PAL, there's a 4% speedup) frames per second.

NTSC transfers can be displayed at 48, 60 (film frames are alternately show 2 and 3 times), or 72 Hz. PAL at 50 or 75Hz.

Quote:


Line doubling to 480p can be good for the projector to improve the scanning between lines, but why should I then use 720P upscaling?

Because with a good setup on an EM focus projector (808) there will be visible gaps between scan lines at 480P. It looks like you're watching through venetian blinds unless you sit far back; but where's the fun in that?
post #7 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm View Post

Well first off the sammy, and almost any other DVD player does NOT upsacle through component, only through the DVI port.

Many of the Sammys can be hacked to upscale over component. His first sentence says he is sending 720p to the PJ, so I'm going to (maybe incorrectly) assume that he is sending 720p.

But, I agree with draganm on the other stuff. Two important points:
1) The V-Digi tcoder is crap.
2) The Sammy DVD players are crap.

Using these two products, there is no way you can get a good picture--no way. You'll do better using Kim's tcoder and an LG 511 or 418 (with 531 firmware) or neuneo 2085 or a momitsu (tcoder or VGA).

If you really want to make the Barco sing, you'll need a real scaler or HTPC.

Dave
post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 
Okay, I understand a bit more now. Person99 is right, I hacked the Samsung player to output 720p via component. I used a budget you won't believe for this whole setup...

BarcoData808 - $400 (eBay, burns on blue tube, had to drive to Boston)
Samsung HD-841 - $50 (Amazon)
Scientific-Atlanta 8300HD STB - $8/month from Adelphia
JVC Surround Receiver - $168 (Amazon)
Shelf to hang the PJ with scrap wood I had around - $10
Mission speakers and MK sub - from previous setup $1200

I think I may change the whole setup to 1080i because the HD channels' native resolution is 1080i - why process them down to 720p? The Sammy can output 1080i as well, then I don't have to have the PJ changing scan rate all the time...

I will try the samsung at 480p and see how the blacks and scan lines look compared to 720p and let you know the results.

For reference, at 720p output on a real HD channel from the SA STB the video is fabulously detailed. I was watching some figure skating the other night on ESPN2HD, and one could see the expressions on the faces in the crowd! AWESOME. 2001: A Space Odyssey was on HD-Movies the other night, also amazingly detailed. Far better than any DVD, and although this is also through the V-Digi converter, I never see the compressed blacks with real HD signals. This is what led me to believe the problem was in the Samsung upscaling, not the V-Digi.

I can get some pics of the theater if anybody cares...

draganm, where can one buy a momitsu V880 anyway?

Tom
post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgilmartin View Post

I think I may change the whole setup to 1080i because the HD channels' native resolution is 1080i - why process them down to 720p? The Sammy can output 1080i as well, then I don't have to have the PJ changing scan rate all the time...

Most seem to like 1080i for HD and 720p for DVD playback. I like 1080i for both and 1080i@72 for DVD playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgilmartin View Post

I will try the samsung at 480p and see how the blacks and scan lines look compared to 720p and let you know the results.

Honestly, I've tested this very player you have. It is soft. Any of the others would be better and some of them can be had for not much more than you paid for the Sammy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomgilmartin View Post

For reference, at 720p output on a real HD channel from the SA STB the video is fabulously detailed. Far better than any DVD, and although this is also through the V-Digi converter, I never see the compressed blacks with real HD signals. This is what led me to believe the problem was in the Samsung upscaling, not the V-Digi.

You'll never get a DVD to look as good as true HD. You can get good transfers close if you want to do an SDI player to a good scaler or an HTPC, but that is the only way you will get close now.

You don't have to believe me, but the Sammy is junk. You HD would also improve with a better transcoder--seriously.

Dave
post #10 of 25
Tom, you can get the v880DX at hkflix.com. Looks like atacom.com has both the v880DX and the network-capable v880N (which I have and am happy with, especially for a budget-conscious HT).
post #11 of 25
FYI, there is a new Momitsu coming out:
http://www.momitsu.com/dvd_888n.html
post #12 of 25
Dave,

Thanks for that link - the new Momitsu looks great!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99 View Post

FYI, there is a new Momitsu coming out:
http://www.momitsu.com/dvd_888n.html
post #13 of 25
Be aware that the V888N has HDMI instead of a DVI-I connector. So, no RGBHV output. It does have component output.
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAW View Post

Be aware that the V888N has HDMI instead of a DVI-I connector. So, no RGBHV output. It does have component output.

Ugh , that was the whole point of getting a Momitsu, it sure wasnt for the cheesy remote and flimsy DVD tray. I better buy a few during closeouts on the older "good" model. I predict they will be dumping them for $100. each and they will go fast.
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm View Post

Ugh , that was the whole point of getting a Momitsu, it sure wasnt for the cheesy remote and flimsy DVD tray.

This is true, but if it is improved and has a better picture and still upscales over component, then that is still decent. I consider it a fact of live that you are going to have to have component transcoding for your HD, so I now take a component transcoder as a fact of life. Given that, a decent upscaling component player is always welcome.

Dave
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz View Post

Tom, you can get the v880DX at hkflix.com. Looks like atacom.com has both the v880DX and the network-capable v880N (which I have and am happy with, especially for a budget-conscious HT).


Does the network version support NAS???????
post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

Does the network version support NAS???????

Most importantly, will the 888N play DVDs over the network using their .IFO files or as .ISO images?
post #18 of 25
What is the current state of affairs regarding performance of any Momitsu vs. say the OPPO for use with a CRT (the Oppo used with a DVI/HDMI to RGBHC converter)
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post

Most importantly, will the 888N play DVDs over the network using their .IFO files or as .ISO images?

I was planning a 888n-purchase (but off-put a tad with news of dvi-i change).
Can it still up-convert via HDMI>vga/rgb somehow, and/or what would be needed for best-conversion to dvi-LCD? [DVI was straight-forward on my 880dx, and dvi>vga convenient, also...]
As for above...the advantage(s) to this, please?
post #20 of 25
I was under the impression that the V888N has never shipped.

Wrong?
post #21 of 25
atacom may have shipped a few...I doubt they are in at hkfix...
post #22 of 25
If I already have an upscaling (SIR-TS360) STB that will do 720p or 1080i would there be any reason to bother with an upscaling DVD player? I would assume that it would come down to which piece of hardware (DVD player or the TS360) has the better scaler.

Bear in mind that the signal is being fed to a VPH-1031Q which is pretty bottom of the barrel these days.

Along the lines (pun intended) of upscaling I am curious about the quality improvement. In the digital photography area of hardware Fujifilm digital cameras (S602 for example) would take a 3 megapixel image and upscale it to 6 megapixels. The end result was never as good as a true 6 megapixel image. And it always seemed that the image from the upscaled images were not "twice as good" as a natively captured image.

This is a subject I am REALLY at odds with.
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by HapHazard View Post

atacom may have shipped a few...I doubt they are in at hkfix...

I picked up one of these from Atacom today. I was told they only got them last week. I haven't even opened it yet. Just got home from work, and am waiting for my wife to abandon the TV room.
post #24 of 25
LazLong...kewl, a Heinlein-fan...
Hope to see a review from you...I'm thinking of an upgrade from my 880DX (with reservation only due to the supposed lack of 'tailored'-RGBHV...fingers-crossed that they included a 'workaround' instead of just giving customers a HDMI-'reach-around'...).
Can you compare PQ re: component/720p with standard dvd's...please? [Or are you familiar with previous Momitsu's?]
post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riktar View Post

If I already have an upscaling (SIR-TS360) STB that will do 720p or 1080i would there be any reason to bother with an upscaling DVD player? I would assume that it would come down to which piece of hardware (DVD player or the TS360) has the better scaler.

Ditto.. I'd like to know as well...
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