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2007 Mitsubishi 57” and 65” 831 Owner's Thread [NO PRICE TALK] - Page 14

post #391 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Whoa there freind. Lots of assumptions there that are not completely correct. Yes, a three chip system does have some drawbacks. But lets look at the comparison without the vitriolic anti-SXRD tripe that you have been spewing.

There are many more components to the optical system that can cause problems, and the light is split to feed all three chips at the same time, but an advantage of 3 times? Not really. The three chip system uses dichoic mirrors to separate out the light into three colors and direct it to the corresponding chip. There is some inefficiency, but not a factor of three. Also, remember, that color wheel is only passing each color one sixth of the time (in the mits sets), so each primary is illuminating the chip on ly one third of the time. At that time it is only passing a fraction of the total light.

As for convergence, good quality control is essential in a three-chip system with no adjustments like is used on the optical blocks in the Sonys. There can be some problems there, but we have not seen them, yet. But then the DLP single chip solution has the color wheel...

Green glob...well, I have not heard a definative explanation and there are likely a number of different problems that have ben lumped into one here. It seems to be similar to lamp issues in that most people don't have a problem, but the ones that do bitch loudly. Color anomolies like this have been well known in 3 chip LCD systems for years, due to lamp color temp variations, filter degradation, thermal sensitivities in various light path components, UV sensitivity, etc. The bottom line is, we have yet to see the problem nor have a single complaint in the sets we have sold. Sharp LCD projectors had dicoloration due to bad spots in lamps years ago that likely amounted to more problems as a percentage of sets sold. Certainly their defective blue filters and poarizers did. We have only seen sporadic problems of that sort with most modern three-chip LCDs and even less with the SXRD.

Your description of "misalignment issue between pixel cells" is completely meaningless and indicates a lack of understanding of how the chips work. Similarly, I know of no evidence that supports the notion that "WHen they pushed the cells closer together to reduce the SSE the ugly green glob monster appeared." If that was true, why do relatively few of the sets exhibit the problem? What is the physics of this phenomenon?

The overall performance of the SXRD and the better DLP systems is similar. I do have a slight preference for the single chip solution because of the simplicity, but the SXRD sets are a fine product and a case can be made for them. They come out of the box looking better than the Mits IME and opinion. After calibration they both perform very well. There are thing to like about both and deficiencies in both.

For those that want the truth, either product performs quite well and has proven thus far to be similar or better in reliability than CRT RPTVs that we have sold for years. In the long run I expect them to be better by quite a margin, for at least two reasons, CRT aging and convergence outputs. The three chip system, whether it is SXRD, DLP, LCD, LCOS, or other variants, will always have the risk of filter and panel damage that DLP does not. DLP has the rotating color wheel and wobulation module as potential mechanical failure points. Only time will tell how they hold up.

We sell both products and work with them all the time. Most folks who know me realize that I don't pull punches when it comes to manufacturers putting out crap or having ineffective service. Sony has had their problems at times, but I have seen no significant and reliable evidence that there is a serious one with the SXRD. If it turns out that there is, I am sure that they will take care of their customers like they have in the past with the PDP panel failures and the flickering CRT sets. Lots of sets as old as 5 years have been fixed or replaced by Sony at N/C. In this way they are similar to Mitsubishi. Both are among the best in this regard, and in terms of service support, training, and service networks.

Now, lets get back to discussing Mitsubishi here. I suggest that everyone start ignoring your posts if you continue.

Ouch!!

That's gotta leave a mark....
post #392 of 549
Have had my WD-57831 about a week now, in general blows the socks off of most any other TV's in my opinion...

But was wondering if any other happy new owners have experienced either of these:

1) The "High" color temp setting appears waay out of adjustment--paints the screen in a dull orange-yellow hue, even on black & white movies, unuseable actually.

2) The set emits a "hot bulb" or new car-like smell after being on 1/2 hour or so. Actually doesnt bother me much, but driving the wife nuts...hafta open a window with a fan to draw it out (48 hours on the bulb as of last nite). Hopefully this goes away eventually...?
post #393 of 549
Had the 57831 for a couple weeks now and still have the wow feeling every so often. Just look at a shot and go wow.... I can't believe it looks that good!

Anyway... now that, that is out of the way. My SA8300 is set to output all channels at 1080i. I seem to get the best picture that way from all the SD stations but I've noticed that shows like Stargate Atlantis on Sci-Fi which are widescreen show in a 4:3 letterboxed format. IE there are black bars to the left and right of the picture to make it 4:3 and then the show itself is shown inside that box letterboxed. Other then setting the SA8300 to output the SD stations as 480i is there anything I can do to fill the screen? Using the format button will expand it a bit but it still has space around it.

In a similar vein. I know there is nothing the end user is doing to cause this but do widescreen ads shown on and HD station with the bars on all 4 sides drive anyone else nuts? I assume the stations are just pushing all the ads out at 4:3 then switch back to widescreen mode when the show starts again but it still bugs me.

Thanks;

Scott
post #394 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by sproctor View Post

Had the 57831 for a couple weeks now and still have the wow feeling every so often. Just look at a shot and go wow.... I can't believe it looks that good!

Anyway... now that, that is out of the way. My SA8300 is set to output all channels at 1080i. I seem to get the best picture that way from all the SD stations but I've noticed that shows like Stargate Atlantis on Sci-Fi which are widescreen show in a 4:3 letterboxed format. IE there are black bars to the left and right of the picture to make it 4:3 and then the show itself is shown inside that box letterboxed. Other then setting the SA8300 to output the SD stations as 480i is there anything I can do to fill the screen? Using the format button will expand it a bit but it still has space around it.

In a similar vein. I know there is nothing the end user is doing to cause this but do widescreen ads shown on and HD station with the bars on all 4 sides drive anyone else nuts? I assume the stations are just pushing all the ads out at 4:3 then switch back to widescreen mode when the show starts again but it still bugs me.

Thanks;

Scott

Very slick man, glad you are enjoying it.

As far as the show goes, are you sure it's not pre-letter boxed and it's the TV that is doing it? (silly question I know, but I've had dumber things trip me up that I'd rather not admit to
post #395 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by sproctor View Post

Had the 57831 for a couple weeks now and still have the wow feeling every so often. Just look at a shot and go wow.... I can't believe it looks that good!

Anyway... now that, that is out of the way. My SA8300 is set to output all channels at 1080i. I seem to get the best picture that way from all the SD stations but I've noticed that shows like Stargate Atlantis on Sci-Fi which are widescreen show in a 4:3 letterboxed format. IE there are black bars to the left and right of the picture to make it 4:3 and then the show itself is shown inside that box letterboxed. Other then setting the SA8300 to output the SD stations as 480i is there anything I can do to fill the screen? Using the format button will expand it a bit but it still has space around it.

In a similar vein. I know there is nothing the end user is doing to cause this but do widescreen ads shown on and HD station with the bars on all 4 sides drive anyone else nuts? I assume the stations are just pushing all the ads out at 4:3 then switch back to widescreen mode when the show starts again but it still bugs me.

Thanks;

Scott

Hi Scott,
I see the same thing on my set there has been a few other stations that do it similar. Cox here in Omaha only has the regular Sci Fi channel and I would assume that is the SciFi's way of showing a movie size picture on a none HD station. When they start showing it in full HD they will already have it recorded (this is just an assumption). Been watching the new version of Battlestar Glactica on Universal HD and it is great.

James
post #396 of 549
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Whoa there freind.
For those that want the truth
Now, lets get back to discussing Mitsubishi here.

While others are entitled to their humble opinions, it is enlightening for someone to claim that they are "the truth".
Another member also stated that he was very proud to have educated himself here at AVS forum. I guess he only reads his own posts!
Now lets get back to stating our opinions
post #397 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by sproctor View Post

My SA8300 is set to output all channels at 1080i. I seem to get the best picture that way from all the SD stations but I've noticed that shows like Stargate Atlantis on Sci-Fi which are widescreen show in a 4:3 letterboxed format. IE there are black bars to the left and right of the picture to make it 4:3 and then the show itself is shown inside that box letterboxed.

Unfortunately, the Mits can't scale 1080 signals so you are stuck if you want to stay at 1080 for everything.

But, I find that its best to avoid the 8300HD scaler and use pass-thru mode. Are you sure the SD stuff looks better in 1080 than 480? Thats not what I see on my old analog HDTV.

A possible work around is to run an s-video cable from the STB to your TV and switch to that input when you want the Mits to scale the picture.
post #398 of 549
Did a couple tests last night and found if I set the box to show SD in 480P the quality seems to be good and Sci-Fi now shows the widescreen programs (at least the ones on last night) in full widescreenso the screen is filled.

New problem is the cable box does not like switching from 1080i to 480P or between any other resolutions when I change stations. The TV will many time just show blue when I switch from SD to HD with the 1080i (or whatever it is) showing in the top corner. Only way to get the box to work is to turn it off and back on again. It will also do this if I have it show 720P and 1080i and switch between stations showing the 2. Not going to worry about it too much. Right now I'm just assuming there is a problem with the box and once I catch up on what I have on the DVR I'll switch it out. If that doesn't work I'll then assume it's the TV and give Mits a call. In the mean time I'll leave it at 1080i and just deal with the wasted space.

Thanks all;

Scott
post #399 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by sproctor View Post

Did a couple tests last night and found if I set the box to show SD in 480P the quality seems to be good and Sci-Fi now shows the widescreen programs (at least the ones on last night) in full widescreenso the screen is filled.

New problem is the cable box does not like switching from 1080i to 480P or between any other resolutions when I change stations. The TV will many time just show blue when I switch from SD to HD with the 1080i (or whatever it is) showing in the top corner. Only way to get the box to work is to turn it off and back on again. It will also do this if I have it show 720P and 1080i and switch between stations showing the 2. Not going to worry about it too much. Right now I'm just assuming there is a problem with the box and once I catch up on what I have on the DVR I'll switch it out. If that doesn't work I'll then assume it's the TV and give Mits a call. In the mean time I'll leave it at 1080i and just deal with the wasted space.

Thanks all;

Scott

Hi Scott,
Have an idea for you to try with your cable box settings. I have Cox and with the digital HD box it has several options under 1080i settings. I just reset my box to 1080i but instead of 4:3 side bar setting I set it to 1080i wide, preserve 4:3 pic-480p this will allow the format setting on the Mit work because a 480p signal is being sent from the cable box for non-HD programs. The kids and I thought '480p stretch plus' looked good for the show '7th Heaven' the kids were watching on 'abc family' (this filled the entire screen)

I just switched to an HD channel (the few Cox offer's) and the cable box is now at 1080i standard

I had the finale of Stargate SG1 on the DVR and played a few minutes of the show. The show expanded from having black around an wide image to all the way to the side with just black on top and bottom. With Stretch Plus everything looks proportional.

So Scott go into your cable box Menu and under format see if you have a similar options and give them a try.

Best to all,
James

O' with this setting of 1080 wide, perserve 4:3 pic 480p within the cable box, the TV will take a moment to adjust to the signal being sent either 1080i or 480p (all automatic). Pressing info will let you know what signal you have.
post #400 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by sproctor View Post

Did a couple tests last night and found if I set the box to show SD in 480P the quality seems to be good and Sci-Fi now shows the widescreen programs (at least the ones on last night) in full widescreenso the screen is filled.

New problem is the cable box does not like switching from 1080i to 480P or between any other resolutions when I change stations. The TV will many time just show blue when I switch from SD to HD with the 1080i (or whatever it is) showing in the top corner. Only way to get the box to work is to turn it off and back on again. It will also do this if I have it show 720P and 1080i and switch between stations showing the 2. Not going to worry about it too much. Right now I'm just assuming there is a problem with the box and once I catch up on what I have on the DVR I'll switch it out. If that doesn't work I'll then assume it's the TV and give Mits a call. In the mean time I'll leave it at 1080i and just deal with the wasted space.

Thanks all;

Scott

i had been doing 480p almost since i got the set. i had cablecard installed yesterday and realized that the correct setting for the cable box is 480i. the tv does a much better job deinterlacing the SD channels than the cable box does. i have cox as well.
post #401 of 549
I tried some more setting last night but the box really is messing up when switching from resolution to resolution. Making a humming noise, flashing the picture on and off the screen and locking onto what ever station I just tuned to. Sounds like I have a problem with my SA8300. A few things saved to watch and they are out of stock at my local Time Warner so I'll have to wait a little bit before switching it out.

Has anyone else experienced this with thier cable box?
post #402 of 549
I tried some more setting last night but the box really is messing up when switching from resolution to resolution. Making a humming noise, flashing the picture on and off the screen and locking onto what ever station I just tuned to. Sounds like I have a problem with my SA8300. A few things saved to watch and they are out of stock at my local Time Warner so I'll have to wait a little bit before switching it out.

Has anyone else experienced this with thier cable box? I wonder if there is a problem with it if that's why I perceived that the 1080i looked better on SD then 480i?

Scott
post #403 of 549
I am wondering if I get the 57831 from Costco, how does the warranty work? Costco covers the Warranty as long as you have a membership? Or can I get an external 5 year from Mits or outside company? I am ready to pull the trigger, plus get some final info when UMR get's to play with Cap'n Preshoot Mits this weekend.
post #404 of 549
Guys,

I'm looking to pull the trigger on one of these in the next couple of days...but one question...is this inaccurate green thing a deal breaker if you want to watch a lot of sports? I'm not exactly comfortable with going into the service menu, and didn't want to get a professional calibration right off the bat. Would I be better off with the A2000 or is this a relatively minor, nitpicky issue? (Obviously that's a loaded question on this particular thread).
post #405 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedingo13 View Post

Guys,

I'm looking to pull the trigger on one of these in the next couple of days...but one question...is this inaccurate green thing a deal breaker if you want to watch a lot of sports? I'm not exactly comfortable with going into the service menu, and didn't want to get a professional calibration right off the bat. Would I be better off with the A2000 or is this a relatively minor, nitpicky issue? (Obviously that's a loaded question on this particular thread).

there is no inaccurate green. The setting that other dude did in the service menu, were complete offset in the user menu. Green was backed off in the service and set to almost max in the user menu. OUt of the box, with a few tweeks of the user setup to taste, the picture is perfect. Otherwise your just picking grains of sand to put in your bucket. Its agonizing over nothing. Just sit back and enjoy it, if you dont then its not your TV. ALl this other calibration and super tweeks is a lot of BS.
post #406 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeeg View Post

i had been doing 480p almost since i got the set. i had cablecard installed yesterday and realized that the correct setting for the cable box is 480i. the tv does a much better job deinterlacing the SD channels than the cable box does. i have cox as well.

Smeeg, just got my 6416 this morning. I'm using 480i for SD. Seems pretty good. However, what are you using for HD? I have been switching from 720p to 1080i and both look pretty good on decent source. Man, that sharpedge filter is a disaster on good HD source!! Gotta be set to OFF!
post #407 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by largdiag View Post

there is no inaccurate green. The setting that other dude did in the service menu, were complete offset in the user menu. Green was backed off in the service and set to almost max in the user menu. OUt of the box, with a few tweeks of the user setup to taste, the picture is perfect. Otherwise your just picking grains of sand to put in your bucket. Its agonizing over nothing. Just sit back and enjoy it, if you dont then its not your TV. ALl this other calibration and super tweeks is a lot of BS.


You make a lot of assumptions. And you obviously don't know what accurate or inaccurate green would be. Were the service menu settings for gray scale or for color decoding? AFAICT, and it is difficult since Mitsubishi will not discuss exactly what can and can't be done in the SM, there are not actual color decoder adjustments in the SM, but there are definitely gray scale adjustments. The consumer settings other than the presets for color temps are not for setting gray scale but affect color decoding. Suugesting that settings in the service menu are offset by setting to max in the consumer menu indicates you don't understand how the sets work and likely don't understand the difference, nor the relation, between gray scale and color processing.

Now the sets that I have done have come in with the color temp too low on the low setting and about 10000K on the high setting. Once you correct the color temp in the service menu you are still left with green that is off, typically biased toward cyan and a bit too intense. You can mostly correct it in the perfect tint adjustments and pull it in a bit with the perfect color, but it is not even close to correct out of the box.

If you want correct color, professional calibration does indeed make a difference. I have been the one who has argued that most people do not need nor want this level of precision, but not because it does not make a significant difference. It does. Period. You can easily exceed the degree of differences that people see between many products with careful calibration. It might not be of value to you, but for many it is a very reasonable choice.
post #408 of 549
lcaillo,

Really my question is whether I can hold off on the calibration for awhile on this set (monetary constrictions and all that), or if it is necessary for it to look right out of the box. Over intense greens I think I could probably handle. Is this television much further off of accurate grayscale than anything else is in this price range?
post #409 of 549
Thread Starter 
If you decide to get a "professional" calibration then do just that. Calibrators are virtually unregulated. Do they have the factory training for your model? Do they have the right equipment?
The fact is most calibrators do their work in secret. They typically do not share information. They are in competition with each other. Now sometime they do form alliances if they think it makes business sense.

Take a most recent and relavent situation. Ultimate AV reported that the only way to accurately calibrate Samsung displays was to use a "secret back door method":
"Because of the oversaturated colors of earlier Samsung sets, a few ISF calibrators have, for several years now, been using a special technique hidden within the firmware of Samsung sets to correct the color points. Video guru Joe Kane first took advantage of this technique for setting correct colors when he worked on the design of the Samsung SP-H700AE DLP Projector. But this technique requires special equipment, is not a normal part of an ISF calibration, and it's something that can't even be done at all with any competing set we know of.)"
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/re.../706samsunghl/

So what technique has the so called hangout-want-your-business calibrators be using? Certainly NOT the special Joe Kane method!
Want proof? Here it is:

Member htwaits:
"UMR, Eliab, and David Abrams indicate that it took significant extra work to get the most out of the HL-Sxx87 and HL-Sxx88 models. Once they learned the "new tricks" they feel the results are outstanding. I'm assuming that the same will be true of the HL-S5679 but there are no "official" reports yet."

Does Samsung or the ISF share this information so that consumers benefit? Obviously not! All knowledge (or lack of) is kept secret. What about the thousands of Samsung owners who have spent $$$ on inferior calibrations using the wrong techniques and equipment? These facts speak for themselves.

Quack, quack quack.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8582281
post #410 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedingo13 View Post

lcaillo,

Really my question is whether I can hold off on the calibration for awhile on this set (monetary constrictions and all that), or if it is necessary for it to look right out of the box. Over intense greens I think I could probably handle. Is this television much further off of accurate grayscale than anything else is in this price range?

I always recommend that my clients "hold off" on calibrations. What I mean is, everyone should get to know their set, what they can and cannot accomplish with the consumer controls, let the set age in a while, and determine what it is that you like and don't like about the resulting images.

Calibration is as much about learning the capabilities of your set and its limitations (as well as your own), and about learning what you demand in performance as it is about tweaking a set to standards. That perspective tends to tweak the egos of the calibration snobs who think that the end-all is a perfect calibration. I have even seen some claim to be able to make any set "perfect." The fact is that good calibration service involves getting a match between the needs and abilities of the user and the performance and setup of the product.

spend some time learning what it is you can do and what you see THEN talk to the available calibration specialists and see if you can get what you need.

The greens are a bit off, as is the magenta, in nearly all of these sets, but it is not nearly as far off as many other product OOB. Keep it all in context, the sets do look pretty good. Heck some people believe they are perfect...LOL.
post #411 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

If you decide to get a "professional" calibration then do just that. Calibrators are virtually unregulated. Do they have the factory training for your model? Do they have the right equipment?
The fact is most calibrators do their work in secret. They typically do not share information. They are in competition with each other. Now sometime they do form alliances if they think it makes business sense.

Take a most recent and relavent situation. Ultimate AV reported that the only way to accurately calibrate Samsung displays was to use a "secret back door method":
"Because of the oversaturated colors of earlier Samsung sets, a few ISF calibrators have, for several years now, been using a special technique hidden within the firmware of Samsung sets to correct the color points. Video guru Joe Kane first took advantage of this technique for setting correct colors when he worked on the design of the Samsung SP-H700AE DLP Projector. But this technique requires special equipment, is not a normal part of an ISF calibration, and it's something that can't even be done at all with any competing set we know of.)"
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/re.../706samsunghl/

So what technique has the so called hangout-want-your-business calibrators be using? Certainly NOT the special Joe Kane method!
Want proof? Here it is:

Member htwaits:
"UMR, Eliab, and David Abrams indicate that it took significant extra work to get the most out of the HL-Sxx87 and HL-Sxx88 models. Once they learned the "new tricks" they feel the results are outstanding. I'm assuming that the same will be true of the HL-S5679 but there are no "official" reports yet."

Does Samsung or the ISF share this information so that consumers benefit? Obviously not! All knowledge (or lack of) is kept secret. What about the thousands of Samsung owners who have spent $$$ on inferior calibrations using the wrong techniques and equipment? These facts speak for themselves.

Quack, quack quack.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8582281

All calibrations are a matter of degree. There is almost always more that can be done and the knowledge, skills, and equipment all have a bearing on the result. Anyone who believes that calibration is a discrete state (calibrated or uncalibrated) is not understanding the matter at all. We are always learning more effective methods and new ways to get more out of a product. The Mits is a good example. We are still experimenting with service menu options and likely will be for a while because Mitsubishi, like many vendors, will not discuss what most of the adjustments actually do.

My calibration work starts with an up front fee for startup costs for research, for mapping the state of the display, instruction on how to accomplish the most with consumer controls, and consultation regarding exactly what can be done and how much degrees of calibration might cost. Then the charge is hourly based on what the consumer needs and desires and what is possible with the display. Most people end up spending a lot less this way than with most calibrators because most of the benefits of calibration that most people need come from eduction of the user. Those who want to get closer to standards pay for it. Those that are just looking to confirm that their set is pretty good and get a little more out of it spend less.

The bottom line is that you cannot generalize the needs of consumers, nor can you generalize about what services calibration specialists provide. A smart consumer does not assume based on generalities when it is possible to learn a bit, ask a few questions, and get specific answers regarding his/her needs.
post #412 of 549
I think the fundamental problem for most of us in smaller markets is that its hard enough to find a calibrator willing to travel to calibrate our displays, but we also have no idea if they're fully up to speed on our display other than what they tell us. They can say that they've done 100 of these displays which could be an outright lie, to they did 100 of them wrong. I've seen an entire store with their own in house ISF guy that calibrated all their displays wrong. (everybody doesn't have yellow complexions).We simply don't know the competence of these calibrators and have no way of finding out. ....and being chatty on AVS forum is not necessarily an indication of their competence either.

Double flame overcoat being put on.


P.S. I spoke to one calibrator a while back that admitted that he didn't know that his spectoradiometer was suppose to be periodically recalibrated and that he thought his calibrations looked a bit blue for years. Doesn't instill a high level of confidence.
post #413 of 549
I'm interested in seeing what UMR does with the 732 on Friday. It should be interesting. But I agree with the above posts. I am very interested in hearing about issues like deinterlacing and scaling, so I can decide whether to have the Mits, Oppo, STB or whatever do the deinterlacing and scaling. ALso I'd like to know how severe the SM tweeks are, since I personally would prefer to stay with the User menu. So, how far from "perfect" is the set OOB. And I am convinced that a set tweeked by UMR will be much better than anything I could do.
However, that said, I used to do the algorithms (filtering, etc) for satellite digital image processing some years ago. I had infinite computer power and did one image at a time, so detailed comparisons with tons of equipment were possible and were done. I also knew a lot (mathematically) about the characteristics of the imaging system. We had 6 bands (i.e. colors) to combine. I could get a "perfect" image that exactly matched the input. It was a lot of work, but quite possible. However, we learned that a "perfect" image was not necessarily the image that provided the most information to people (or other computer algorithms) looking at the image. And it certainly was not the most pleasing image to the eye. So once we had a "perfect" image, we then spent time on subjective changes that gave more information from the picture and were more pleasing. An analogy from the TV is that shadows may actually be very dark and hard to see in the source, but the TV might enhance and separate the shades within the shadow. Edge enhancement is another example. Both may deviate from "perfect source", but add information and are more pleasing to the eye. The eye/brain combination is also good at side by side comparisons, but not great at absolute color measurements.
So, those of us who just adjust the TV to be pleasing to our eyes may not be too far off.
I have just started some adjustments, still within the user menus, to tweek the individual colors. I have a lot to learn, however, about this set and my viewing of the various sources, before I have it right. Smeeg seems to have done a lot more investigation than I have.
Peace.
post #414 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I think the fundamental problem for most of us in smaller markets is that its hard enough to find a calibrator willing to travel to calibrate our displays, but we also have no idea if they're fully up to speed on our display other than what they tell us. They can say that they've done 100 of these displays which could be an outright lie, to they did 100 of them wrong. I've seen an entire store with their own in house ISF guy that calibrated all their displays wrong. (everybody doesn't have yellow complexions).We simply don't know the competence of these calibrators and have no way of finding out. ...

It's a jungle out there.

Being in a "small" market is also a problem where repair services are concerned.

It's important to remember that an ISF calibrator is one who has completed an ISF calibration course. ISF does not certify calibrators so it's up to the buyer to discover how competent a given calibrator is the old fashioned way -- by using references and luck.

It's also up to the buyer to know his or her expectations, and not buy something that is more expensive than it's value.

For our calibration I used SethS who has spent some time at AVS answering questions. I found one of his customers with a similar set, and then I visited with my collection of DVD clips. That allowed me to see how the calibration effected the flaws that most bothered me. Three years ago the issues I was most interested in were banding and "crushed" detail.

More than a year later I'm still enjoying improvements that I wasn't knowledgable enough to expect. I wouldn't know what perfection looked like if I saw it, but I feel that I got my money's worth.

I wouldn't say that there are deep dark secrets that a calibrator would have to discover before he could do a job that justified his fee. On the other hand a calibrator shouldn't have to learn on your dime just to reach a satisfying level of improvement. When UMR is interested in a new model set he frequently offers a discount for the chance to do some home study in the customer's theater room. SethS, Eliab, and David Abrams get possession of the sets they are most interested in studying.

In Samsung's case it seems that outstanding results are possible if the calibrators are willing to spend some time looking for that sets "secrets". Even if Mitsubishi sets do not have the same level of controls available or documented for ISF calibrators to work with, I think that the results of calibration would satisfy me and probably satisfy an extremely high percent of Mitsubishi owners.

People like UMR, David Abrams, Eliab, and SethS upgrade their test equipment and software continually. While they might not give away the techniques that allow them to get close to perfection, they will tell anyone what equipment and software is necessary to do the best job on a give set. Just knowing that much should help in selecting a "good enough for the money" calibrator. One way or another good calibrators study the sets that they work on until they feel that they understand them enough to do their job.

What reincarnate quoted from one of my messages was related to specific questions that someone had asked, and may have been used out of context. I've just returned form twelve day in the rain forests of Costa Rica, and I don't have the energy to figure out what my context was. What I wrote was no more insightful than any of my other observations.

As for reincarnate's question:

"What about the thousands of Samsung owners who have spent $$$ on inferior calibrations using the wrong techniques and equipment?"

I would ask why almost none of them have found their way to AVS?

In the past four years I've read more micro display threads than I want to admit. In that time I can recall two dissatisfied calibration customers. One didn't see a difference, and the other poster seemed to have found the calibrator from hell.

If I lived in a market so small that "good" calibrators couldn't reach it for a reasonable ($400 - $500) price I wouldn't worry. There is always DVE to deal with the worst problems. I would worry that there wouldn't be anyone nearby who was qualified to do repairs.

Getting a calibration done was a gamble for me. My wife liked Seth so it paid off.

If any of you have direct experience having your Mitsubishi calibrated post it here along with the name of your calibrator, and I will include a link to your post in the thread linked at the bottom of my message. As time goes buy maybe it will become a resource.

Enjoy.
post #415 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

It's a jungle out there.

Being in a "small" market is also a problem where repair services are concerned.

It's important to remember that an ISF calibrator is one who has completed an ISF calibration course. ISF does not certify calibrators so it's up to the buyer to discover how competent a given calibrator is the old fashioned way -- by using references and luck.

It's also up to the buyer to know his or her expectations, and not buy something that is more expensive than it's value.

For our calibration I used SethS who has spent some time at AVS answering questions. I found one of his customers with a similar set, and then I visited with my collection of DVD clips. That allowed me to see how the calibration effected the flaws that most bothered me. Three years ago the issues I was most interested in were banding and "crushed" detail.

More than a year later I'm still enjoying improvements that I wasn't knowledgable enough to expect. I wouldn't know what perfection looked like if I saw it, but I feel that I got my money's worth.

I wouldn't say that there are deep dark secrets that a calibrator would have to discover before he could do a job that justified his fee. On the other hand a calibrator shouldn't have to learn on your dime just to reach a satisfying level of improvement. When UMR is interested in a new model set he frequently offers a discount for the chance to do some home study in the customer's theater room. SethS, Eliab, and David Abrams get possession of the sets they are most interested in studying.

In Samsung's case it seems that outstanding results are possible if the calibrators are willing to spend some time looking for that sets "secrets". Even if Mitsubishi sets do not have the same level of controls available or documented for ISF calibrators to work with, I think that the results of calibration would satisfy me and probably satisfy an extremely high percent of Mitsubishi owners.

People like UMR, David Abrams, Eliab, and SethS upgrade their test equipment and software continually. While they might not give away the techniques that allow them to get close to perfection, they will tell anyone what equipment and software is necessary to do the best job on a give set. Just knowing that much should help in selecting a "good enough for the money" calibrator. One way or another good calibrators study the sets that they work on until they feel that they understand them enough to do their job.

What reincarnate quoted from one of my messages was related to specific questions that someone had asked, and may have been used out of context. I've just returned form twelve day in the rain forests of Costa Rica, and I don't have the energy to figure out what my context was. What I wrote was no more insightful than any of my other observations.

As for reincarnate's question:

"What about the thousands of Samsung owners who have spent $$$ on inferior calibrations using the wrong techniques and equipment?"

I would ask why almost none of them have found their way to AVS?

In the past four years I've read more micro display threads than I want to admit. In that time I can recall two dissatisfied calibration customers. One didn't see a difference, and the other poster seemed to have found the calibrator from hell.

If I lived in a market so small that "good" calibrators couldn't reach it for a reasonable ($400 - $500) price I wouldn't worry. There is always DVE to deal with the worst problems. I would worry that there wouldn't be anyone nearby who was qualified to do repairs.

Getting a calibration done was a gamble for me. My wife liked Seth so it paid off.

If any of you have direct experience having your Mitsubishi calibrated post it here along with the name of your calibrator, and I will include a link to your post in the thread linked at the bottom of my message. As time goes buy maybe it will become a resource.

Enjoy.

thats a long post.
post #416 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by largdiag View Post

thats a long post.

Correct. Why repeat it?
post #417 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by largdiag View Post

thats a long post.

post #418 of 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Whoa there freind. Lots of assumptions there that are not completely correct. Yes, a three chip system does have some drawbacks. But lets look at the comparison without the vitriolic anti-SXRD tripe that you have been spewing.

There are many more components to the optical system that can cause problems, and the light is split to feed all three chips at the same time, but an advantage of 3 times? Not really. The three chip system uses dichoic mirrors to separate out the light into three colors and direct it to the corresponding chip. There is some inefficiency, but not a factor of three. Also, remember, that color wheel is only passing each color one sixth of the time (in the mits sets), so each primary is illuminating the chip on ly one third of the time. At that time it is only passing a fraction of the total light.

As for convergence, good quality control is essential in a three-chip system with no adjustments like is used on the optical blocks in the Sonys. There can be some problems there, but we have not seen them, yet. But then the DLP single chip solution has the color wheel...

Green glob...well, I have not heard a definative explanation and there are likely a number of different problems that have ben lumped into one here. It seems to be similar to lamp issues in that most people don't have a problem, but the ones that do bitch loudly. Color anomolies like this have been well known in 3 chip LCD systems for years, due to lamp color temp variations, filter degradation, thermal sensitivities in various light path components, UV sensitivity, etc. The bottom line is, we have yet to see the problem nor have a single complaint in the sets we have sold. Sharp LCD projectors had dicoloration due to bad spots in lamps years ago that likely amounted to more problems as a percentage of sets sold. Certainly their defective blue filters and poarizers did. We have only seen sporadic problems of that sort with most modern three-chip LCDs and even less with the SXRD.

Your description of "misalignment issue between pixel cells" is completely meaningless and indicates a lack of understanding of how the chips work. Similarly, I know of no evidence that supports the notion that "WHen they pushed the cells closer together to reduce the SSE the ugly green glob monster appeared." If that was true, why do relatively few of the sets exhibit the problem? What is the physics of this phenomenon?

The overall performance of the SXRD and the better DLP systems is similar. I do have a slight preference for the single chip solution because of the simplicity, but the SXRD sets are a fine product and a case can be made for them. They come out of the box looking better than the Mits IME and opinion. After calibration they both perform very well. There are thing to like about both and deficiencies in both.

For those that want the truth, either product performs quite well and has proven thus far to be similar or better in reliability than CRT RPTVs that we have sold for years. In the long run I expect them to be better by quite a margin, for at least two reasons, CRT aging and convergence outputs. The three chip system, whether it is SXRD, DLP, LCD, LCOS, or other variants, will always have the risk of filter and panel damage that DLP does not. DLP has the rotating color wheel and wobulation module as potential mechanical failure points. Only time will tell how they hold up.

We sell both products and work with them all the time. Most folks who know me realize that I don't pull punches when it comes to manufacturers putting out crap or having ineffective service. Sony has had their problems at times, but I have seen no significant and reliable evidence that there is a serious one with the SXRD. If it turns out that there is, I am sure that they will take care of their customers like they have in the past with the PDP panel failures and the flickering CRT sets. Lots of sets as old as 5 years have been fixed or replaced by Sony at N/C. In this way they are similar to Mitsubishi. Both are among the best in this regard, and in terms of service support, training, and service networks.

Now, lets get back to discussing Mitsubishi here. I suggest that everyone start ignoring your posts if you continue.

Dude, you can't be real. How much is Sony paying you? No significant evidence of problems on the SXRD? Where have you been since August of 2005? I'm not talking about the posts that have been in here since the early days of the XBR1, i'm referring to the fact that the Sony service bulletin (if you'd like i'll post it) has been around since 2005 warning the Sony authorized service centers about the color uniformity problems associated with the SXRD since day 1 and how to address it. They told them if the problem wasn't fixed by calibration, which couldn't be done anyways, then replacing the optical block was the so-called solution. Enter the A2000, which many of us had hoped to purchase despite the embarrassing behavior of Sony pertaining to the XBR1. When owners started complaining in the same exact way as the XBR1 it raised a warning flag signifying that Sony did not fix the problem. So what did Sony do? They gave owners a 2 year warranty on the OB. If you have the time, come to LA and i'll show you numerous A2000's in BB and CC that have green staining to various degrees....IN THE SHOWROOM. You have the audacity to say the quality control on the OB's of the Sony SXRD's are good? Have you seen the lawsuit aimed at Sony for this very reason? You know there are loyal owners who've had 3 and 4 optical blocks replaced and you say they are just bitching loudly? Sony needs to be held accountable and i do my part by telling customers in the stores to stay away from the SXRD. I tell them the truth, that the SXRD gives a great picture but it will probably develop a permanent green stain, most likely starting in the upper right hand corner, and it will have to be replaced. So don't sit there and claim the problem is because a few people in here are whiny bitches, they should get a medal for all their patience.
post #419 of 549
I can't speak for the earliest SXRD sets, as we chose not to carry them. We usually don't jump on the newest product right away and wait to see how it fares. The dealers that I spoke to indicated that there were a few problems, but much like the other problems with other sets that I discussed, they seem to be limited in scope and not inherent problems with the technology. Since we have been carrying them, I have not had a single failure, nor any complaints from the sets on demo, nor from the clients who have them. That is our experience. I also pointed out that I am confident that if problems are found to be inherent in the sets, I expect Sony to take care of the clients who bought them like they did with the other examples I cited.

I heard the same bitching about the lamp problems on the LCD RPTV sets. There were some, and in some areas they seemed to be very common. Once they worked through them the sets work fine. We never saw any of that either. Yes, there are problems with some sets. That is not a reason to trash the manufacturer and the technology. Mitsubishi has had their share of embarrassments as well, some that were far worse in scale than the problems with SXRD. The sets with dozens of leaky capacitors, the sets with the cooloant leaks, the PIP boards that failed in nearly 100% of sets, etc.

I just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and look at the big picture. If we do have problems, we will be there to support our clients. So far, we have not seen it, and believe me, I have looked.

Both companies
post #420 of 549
This is a Mits thread. I read the Mits, Sammy and Sony threads before picking the Mits. There is enough cr.p in the Sony thread. I don't see a need to bring it here. This is the Mits "owner's" thread. Supposedly we have bought the Mits?!? Does anyone have buyer's remorse and wish they had bought the A2000?
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