UPDATE: there now appears to be an upconverting Panasonic DMR-EZ47VK DVD player/recorder/VHS combo which has built-in CC decoder so it can decode line21 VBI CC and overlay on the video prior to sending over component or HDMI. See this post for more info:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post12690647
Originally Posted by Blesum
I posted in that thread trying to get confirmation that it really is captioning and not subtitles (people sometimes think they're the same thing), and asked how it was turned on with these dvd players.
Good thing I didn't return everything tonight after all.
Well, I have the Oppo 970HD (the model referenced in that thread was the 971H)and I see no options to display CC. There is an option to display subtitle of course. It could be I'm just not looking hard enough.
Anyway, here is the manual for the 971H and I couldn't find any reference to CC or caption.http://www.oppodigital.com/Download/...ser_Manual.pdf
Here is the manual for the 970HD and also I couldn't find any reference to CC or caption.http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd_manual.pdf
Here is HD-A1, also no reference to CC or caption.http://tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-i...hd-a1_om_e.pdf
BTW I think you are right in that most people think subtitles are the same as CC information. For the longest time I thought the same thing until someone pointed it out to me.
I think CC is just something that fell through the cracks. I don't think any DVD players have ever decoded CC information on line 21 VBI, as they expected all TVs would be able to decode line 21 VBI because it was mandated. In fact all TVs sold after the mandated date do decode CC on line 21 VBI.
However when we started moving to HD material, the line 21 VBI was no longer present on the HD 720p/1080i signals so the TVs were no longer getting the CC information. There was an attempt to solve this by encoding the CC information into the mpg stream and this partially resolves the situation for HD material but only if the device decoding the HD source material is able to read the CC and overlay it onto the picture.
However where CC fell through the cracks is with upconverting DVD players. These DVD players were never capable of reading the line 21 VBI CC information because they depended on the TV to decode it. This was fine when DVD players were sending 480i to the TV because line 21 VBR was passed.
The problem is when these players were converted to be upconverting players, they moved to component and HDMI/DVI interfaces and 720p/1080i over these interfaces did not have any equivalent of line 21 VBI so the CC information was just lost. It isn't being sent to the TV and even if the player wanted to, there would be no way (as in no standard) for the information to be transmitted over component/HDMI/DVI at 720p/1080i. This coupled with the fact that CC decoding has never traditionally been a function of the DVD player effectively means there is no way to display CC information.
From a design standpoint, since there is no way (as in no standard) to transmit the CC info over component/HDMI/DVI for 720p/1080i, it is impossible for a TV to decode CC for you, it never receives the info so it can never decode it.
The only way you are ever going to get the CC decoded and displayed on an upconverting DVD player connected to your TV using component/HDMI/DVI at 720p/1080i is if the DVD player is redesigned to decode CC and overlay it onto the output prior to sending it to the TV.
From a practical perspective, I don't see this is something you'd be able to convince the big conglomerates to do arguing as individuals. You'd most likely have to band together or create some noise to effect change. I don't really follow this stuff closely so I do not even know if it would be required for any manufacturer to support such decoding of CC. The requirement as far as I know was for the TVs to decode CC info on line 21 VBI, which they are all doing. The TVs cannot help they are not receiving any line 21 VBI info when you choose to upconvert your DVDs to 720p/1080i and use the component/HDMI/DVI interfaces.
The first counterargument would of course be that you could just use subtitles instead of CC. By doing so they would convert the issue into "quality" of subtitles vs CC which IMO weakens your argument that CC should work, at least in terms of public perception. You'd have a stronger argument if neither CC nor subtitled worked and as a hearing impaired person this is denying you ability to enjoy content.
The second counterargument would be you could just continue using your current 480i DVD player and not go with a fancy upconverting player.
Now the following is a separate test, unrelated to the upconverting DVD discussion above.
To test out my assertion that for HD material, the CC information is encoded in the mpg stream and the TV is able to decode CC for HD material that is received using the internal HDTV (QAM/ATSC) tuner I performed an experiment.
I have a Sharp Aquos LC-45GX6U HDTV. I tuned to local 1080i PBS channel (using cable TV and Sharp's QAM tuner) which I knew was transmitting CC encoded into the mpg stream. I enabled CC on the display. Sure enough the Close Caption information showed up on my display. I then switched to OTA (over-the-air) antenna and performed the same experiment using the ATSC tuner. Once again CC info was displayed.
So basically the Sharp LCD TV does in fact decode CC properly for HD signals when the information is made available to the TV. Obviously if the CC information is not made available to the TV, it will be impossible for it to decode and since there is no way (as in no standard) to transmit CC information over component/HDMI/DVI with 720p/1080i, with current infrastructure, it will never be able to receive CC info over those interconnects.
I also verified that my Motorola DCT-5100 cable Set Top Box has the ability to decode CC information located on the mpg stream and overlay onto the picture prior to sending to my Sharp display. It is located on a special setup menu where I can enable CC. It isn't on the standard config menu and it cannot be turned on using a button on the remote. I need to turn the unit off and go into the special setup menu.
So the bottom line is for HD material and for upconverted DVDs, the only device which can possibly decode CC and display it is the device which decodes the mpg stream. After the picture passes over component/HDMI/DVI the CC information is lost and cannot be recovered.
This is the way it will work for all TVs, so if you are returning the TVs because you think another TV will behave differently, don't bother, they will all behave this way. If however, you are returning the TV and are giving up on HD because the current situation is not acceptable, then that is a reasonable reason to return everything.
Your old Sony DVD player happens to "work" with CC not because the DVD is superior, but because it is connecting to your TV at 480i which has line 21 VBI information, thus CC is being passed to the TV so the TVs CC decoder can do its job. If you asked the Sony DVD player to decode CC internally and overlay onto the picture it won't be able to do that.
You could of course configure your upconverting DVD player to use 480i and then the CC information should pass to the TV and the TV should be able to decode it, but then what would be the point of getting your "upconverting" DVD player.