HDMI not allowing Closed Captioning? - Page 5

Because outputs that support HD are not specified to carry closed captions. Instead closed caption decoding is to take place at the tuner or playback device, and the result integrated into the video stream at that point, thereby traveling as open captions across the HD-compatible video connection.


Playback devices that do not decode closed captions yet support HD-compatible outputs should be avoided, and replaced as needed.

"..the authors of the HDMI spec thought the DVD players would decode
captions - they even mistakenly believed that they were required to do so."


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...63&postcount=8

Bicker> Can't Component put out 480i? 480i!=HD. A tv SHOULD try to decode CC if I tell it to. That doesn't mean it will necessarily be successful. Is there any reason HDMI can't carry 480i? This I'm not sure about, but I figure that on my "av1" or "av2" input (s-video, composite) the tv should try at least to show cc since those signals are SURELY not HD. Also, Component supports HD as well as 480i, no? Shouldn't I have the option of trying to decode cc then?

I think I understand that you wish things worked differently. What I explained was how things actually work, to help you understand how to gain access to closed captions. Again: Outputs that support HD are not specified to carry closed captions. Closed caption decoding is to take place at the tuner or playback device. If closed captions are important to you, avoid video recorders and disc players that do not decode closed captions.

Unfortunately, some Samsung HDTVs do not route the analog inputs through the caption decoder. A friend of mine who works in the television repair industry got an advisory from Samsung about that.

I have a 2008 Samsung LN40A630M1F with both an analog and digital TV tuner which *does* decode captions through the analog inputs I've tested so far, but the 2009 models may not do that. (I haven't yet tested the component video inputs, but my HDTV can decode captions through the S-video and composite inputs.)

I haven't heard of other TV manufacturers creating such problems for people who need captions, but I would encourage everyone with a new TV to check out whether captions will be decoded through the analog inputs.

You may want to return your Samsung if you're still within the trial period of the purchase.

Dana

I just found this out the hard way. My mom recently got a new blu ray player and can't get the captions to work over HDMI. I'm not sure if all her old DVD's have their own subtitles either.

It's important for people to know that the FCC never ruled that outputs that support HD should not deliver closed caption data. Rather, the HDMI Coalition erred in not providing this capability, as has been pointed out above. Thus the fact that HD outputs don't support the transmission of caption data is an undesirable mistake rather than anything the FCC wanted to happen.

Avoiding "video recorders and disc players that do not decode closed captions" sound easy to do, but it's not. At this time, most video recorders and DVD players do not decode captions. A few combination devices that have a built-in ATSC tuner and NTSC tuner happen to decode Line 21 captions from the DVDs and videocassettes, like the Panasonic DMR-EZ48 devices. These cost over $240 compared to much less expensive DVD players that cost less than $50. It's not equitable for deaf and hard of hearing people to be forced by the HDMI coalition's failure to buy those expensive devices just to be able to decode captions and get HD quality at the same time. If HDMI cables had been designed long ago to pass through caption data to the HDTV's decoder, caption viewers would have been able to enjoy all upconverting DVD players and set top boxes equally and without hassle.

One important choice that caption viewers actually have now is to make sure that their HDTV has the ability to decode Line 21 (NTSC) captions on the component video inputs. (Many HDTVs still do have this capability, but Samsung is on record as saying that at least some of their HDTVs don't.) They should also check their DVD players to make sure that they will transmit CC data on the component video outputs after progressive scanning and upconversion has been turned off; only 480i will work for the captions to show up on the TV.

It's been learned that some set top boxes may not transmit caption data over component video outputs, perhaps because the resolution has been set to higher than 480i, so it the settings can't be adjusted, those set top boxes won't be able to transmit caption data in a way that can be decoded by the HDTV. That's probably yet another violation of the Television Decoder Circuitry Act as that law was supposed to ensure continued, equal access to captioning services and the television medium to the fullest extent made available by technology.

In the 2000 DTV captioning order, the FCC had actually written that it expected external devices to continue to pass through caption data to the TV's decoder. Bicker1 had written above: "Closed caption decoding is to take place at the tuner or playback device," but that statement is actually his personal opinion rather than anything that the FCC said, and is the result of the HDMI coalition failing to create an HDMI standard that would pass through caption data to the TV's decoder.

In my opinion, consumers whose TV equipment don't provide equal access to captioning services on all the video inputs should complain about this deficit to the FCC and point out that the FCC needs to strengthen its rules and regulations so that all new TVs will indeed provide equal access to the television medium to the "fullest extent made available by technology."

HDTVs that have both an NTSC and an ATSC tuner will be more likely to be able to support decoding of captions on the analog inputs. Some HDTVs on the market don't have an NTSC tuner and thus might not have the capability of decoding NTSC captions even through the RF input. That'll need to be doublechecked as soon as possible. In general, I'd recommend that caption users look for DTVs with both kinds of tuners to lock in the ability to decode both types of captions (unless one happens to know that an HDTV without an NTSC tuner will still be able to decode NTSC caption data).

You're entitled to your opinion, Dana.

I own a Panasonic DMR-EZ485VK DVD Recorder / VHS combo. This unit is connected to my Magnavox LCD HDTV with HDMI cable. Panasonic DVD has CC with TV tuner built-in. I just enable CC in Panasonic. It will transmit DVD and VHS with (line-21 based) CC movies via HDMI cable.

HDMI itself will not recognize line-21 technology. So, Panasonic does the trick by opening captions and superimpose them on video before transmitting via HDMI. The video image on HDTV is excellent, preserving white text on black background CC format.

I believe that Panasonic's CC feature is done via software decoder instead of hardware. When I first bought it, it came with white texts without black background. I went to Panasonic's website to download the latest firmware version and flashed it on my DVD unit. CC came out with proper format. Yay!

We should start telling Sony and others that Panasonic has successfully made it through and they should follow Panasonic's model for PS3, DVD with upscaler feature and others.


--jeff

The main reason that Panasonic provides decoding of captions in this device is because it includes an ATSC tuner. In its 2000 DTV order, the FCC had ruled that stand-alone devices with ATSC tuners would be required to decode captions.

Panasonic makes other DVD players without tuners but doesn't provide decoding of captions, as far as I know, even though they could have done that on a voluntary basis.

Other manufacturers with DVD recorders and built-in ATSC tuners *should* also decode captions, but they may handle doing so quite differently.

I have the very similar DMR-EZ485V device, purchased from Costco, and you can change the appearance of the captions. One very interesting thing about this particular device is that the many of the digital caption settings affect the appearance of the analog captions. I have my Panasonic device set to display large yellow captions on a blue background. The analog captions will not show the font style that you choose, but it seems to show every other option. Thus, when I play a DVD, I can see large yellow captions on a blue background even though the captions are analog. As far as I know, Panasonic is the only manufacturer to apply digital caption settings to analog captions, which would be a good feature for people who have vision problems as well as hearing loss.

Some drawbacks about the Panasonic is that it doesn't have a caption button on the remote control and it doesn't have a caption preview. This occurs with the Panasonic HDTVs as well.

There is a separate thread about the Panasonic DMR-EZ48 devices that you might want to follow to pick up on different tips for your own device, like what DVDs to use. It's at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014536

Dana

Yes, it's true that the regulation of FCC requires TV tuner in consumer electronics to include CC decoder.

Some electronics without TV tuner do have CC decoder built-in. A few models of LCD projectors from NEC and Epson have CC support. A cheap foreign DVD player (that I bought from Best Buy years ago) has CC decoder built-in. There are few companies that are very thoughtful about providing the access to DVD's CC. Other companies should be following them.

Sony's PlayStation 3 is one of examples that has the potential to include CC support for DVD movies but Sony decided not to do so. Perhaps, it's because their primary support is for gaming, Blu-Ray discs and online (streaming) video library. Video discs with SDH and streaming video with optional subtitles may be good enough to them and not to bother continuing the support for DVD's CC. In my opinion, since PS3 can play DVD movies, and the support for DVD CC must be provided. It's fair.

Many cable boxes are unable to decode closed caption. Only a few are, and they require additional monthly fees which are quite excessive. Cable companies often charges extra money per month for an HDTV Cable Box in addition to HD cable service. It forces US to have to pay for it in order to just view closed caption on our television sets, which should already have been a free service.

Many DVDs are encoded with closed caption, which is not the same as subtitles. We are then forced to NOT use HDMI when viewing the DVDs, and not take advantage of using the HDMI port and not being able to use their TV's full potential, which we have paid for.

Closed captioning has always been the function of the viewing device. HDMI.org's claim: "All HDMI specifications support Close Captioning (CC) and enable the rendering of CC signals between CE devices" is inaccurate and misleading. It only shows CC if the signal is pre-rendered and permanently printed to the video, not the same.


We should NOT have to pay extra just to be able to use closed caption.

You are mislead and mistaken. Your concern has nothing to do with HDMI. The law requires cable boxes to support closed captions. Your beef, therefore, is with cable operators who refuse to issue you a compliant cable box.

Get a compliant cable box.

If they refuse, call your Member of Congress.

With regard to DVD, use analog outputs for DVDs that support closed captions instead of subtitles. If you are unsatisfied with this, contact the distributor of the DVD and demand that they begin to start providing subtitles as well as closed captions. Again, your concerns are misdirected in that regard.

Wow, Panasonic DMR-EZ28 is now Can$329.99! A year ago it was Can$249. http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audi...er/DMREZ28.asp

Why not, Panasonic DVD Recorders are the only one who decode Closed Captions over HDMI
Still it looks like it is the least expensive DVD player that decodes Closed Captions over HDMI.

Hi. I live in Australia (Australia uses PAL) and I regularly buy Region 1 DVDs for viewing. However, because the way Region 1 produces CC (Close Captions), our Australian TV sets could not display them. Is it the TV or is it the DVD player that forbids it? Some say it is the TV and now this website says it is the DVD player. NTSC uses Line 21. PAL does not use Line 21. So if I were to import say Panasonic DMR-EZ28, would it help to display CC on my TV?

I previously bought one DVD player with CC capabilities from a US website (worldimport), but I could not get CC to display on my HD LCD TV.

I also bought a SARABEC VR-20 Video Caption Reader but I still could not get it to display Region 1 CCs.

Hope someone can answer this question. I don't want to be wasting money on devices that does not work.

And yes, I know I can hook up my laptop to the TV and all, but I do not wish to do so as it is very tedious and messy and my partner does not like it.

Thanks.

World Import, a sponsor I found here, has a Yamaha all-areas model DVD-S661 DVD player that apparently decodes closed captions. Has anyone had experience with this player?

Bought that and did not work with my HD LCD TV.

Wow. I'm glad I asked. Sounds like the Panasonics ARE the only option.

Kris,

Your TV probably does not have a closed caption decoder. Even in the US, one must use a 480i connection between the DVD player and the TV in order for the closed caption information to be passed to the TV correctly.

The DMR-EZ28K should work as long as your TV can accept 30 or 60 frames/second input over the HDMI (480p60, 720p60 and 1080i30/1080p60 all should work). The DMR-EZ28K decodes the line 21 captions internally and overlays the captions on the video before sending to the TV via HDMI.

I was looking at the documentation for the Panasonic recorders and it appears that the DMR-EA18K might work as well (lower cost, does not have a tuner). See page 47 and bottom of page 66:
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER...MREA18-MUL.PDF

I have the DMR-EZ28K and it works great.

Daniel Lang

Not trying to necro this thread but I too ran into this problem when I converted to HD and was frustrated as well.

I started really looking into Oppo players recently, and out of curiosity sent them an email asking if their players support closed captioning via HDMI. I received this response from Oppo:

"None of our players support the decoding of Closed Captioning."

I don't think it is going to stop me from buying a BDP-83 (when the time comes to replace my current BD player). I'll just replace those old DVDs that I have that don't have subtitles with Blu-Rays (if they become available on BD). I almost can't stand to watch old DVDs anymore anyhow.

Meanwhile, I'll keep my old Panasonic DVD player hooked up through S-Video for those rare occasions when I pop in a DVD that doesn't have subtitles. Sure, the video is horrible, but it's better than not watching it at all.

If you have a DVD player with component video, the video would look even better than with S-video; you just have to turn off progressive scanning and upconversion.

Alternatively, you could watch the DVD on a computer with a DVD drive, using DVD software that decodes captions (like Windows Media Player) and optionally hook it up to an HDTV via HDMI.

I have a new Sharp Aquos TV. Set to HDMI. Couldn't get closed captions. Comcast w/HD Digital box. While doing this, use cable box remote only. Try this...it worked for me, hope it works for you.

Leave TV on. Turn cable box off.

Press MENU on cable box remote. Within 5 sec. a menu will appear (never saw this menu before).

Go to Closed Captions, turn on.

Turn on cable box. You should see the captions now. Be sure a program is on that provides CC.

You'll have to remember what you did, or you won't be able to turn them off again.

I've been surprised to find that a few BLU-RAY discs have regular closed-captions on them, but you can only see them if your player is set to 480i! That's rather strange. (I've seen them on 50 First Dates, which is in MPEG format and one of the very first Blu-Ray releases, and on The Simpsons Movie which is in AVC format.)

That's consistent with what I wrote about needing to turn off upconversion and progressive scanning in order to get caption data decoded through component video cables. Doing that would make the video signal analog (not digital) and therefore compliant with the NTSC standard, and then the TV is capable of decoding the caption data, which follow the NTSC (analog) standard.

Only NTSC-style, Line 21 caption data is encoded onto DVDs, not ATSC-style (digital) caption data. Therefore an HDTV also has to be able to decode NTSC caption data, not just ATSC caption data, in order to decode captions from DVDs. (Not all video inputs on all HDTVs are designed to decode caption data; Samsung didn't do that on the component video inputs for many of its HDTVs. I don't know if they've corrected that problem now; hopefully they did.)

How about bypassing the new AVR and BD player and just hook my old DVD player up with component to the new HDTV and RCA to the AVR to get CC. Will that work? There are bountiful connectors on the HDTV. Also, would a new non-BD upconveting DVD player pass CC if connected by Component? Either would seem cheaper and simpler than the EZ28/48 route since I don't plan to record.

I have have more consistent success using composite video or s-video to pass Closed Captions.

As has been stated here numerous times, the CC data from upconverted DVDs probably won't be decoded by the HDTV. There doesn't seem to be a standard in place to do that, therefore the interfaces on the HDTVs don't support that.

Think of upconverting a DVD as making the video signal a digital one, not an analog, NTSC one. The video inputs of HDTVs don't seem to be designed to decode caption data from upconverted or progressive video signals because they're no longer in the NTSC format. (Although HDTVs can decode caption data from broadcast television, those television signals are more than just video; they have data and sound in it as well). The component video interface seems to be capable only of decoding caption data from analog, NTSC video. Any time you upconvert the DVD signal or make it progressive, you're making it non-analog and therefore the HDTV can't presently decode the caption data.

I don't know what would be involved in getting HDTVs to decode caption data from non-NTSC signals, but for now, they don't seem to be designed to do that.

You can always try different connections just to see what would happen, but check whether the captions get decoded. Keep in mind that not all HDTVs are designed to decode caption data on the component video input, and some set top boxes may not transmit caption data on the component video output (though I think this would be an actionable violation of FCC regulations---see the November 2008 guidance about captioning from the FCC). People who do find that their HDTVs don't decode captions on the component video inputs should complain to the FCC as well.

Thanks for responding and filling in the blanks. I'm waiting for my cash-and-carry electronics store to get the 3D Panasonics before choosing a HDTV so I'm spending time working on the accessories while I wait. The Panasonic 3Ds don't appear to have an S-Video input so that option may not be available to me. They have also dropped analog-out which means I'll need to replace our old Denon stereo tuner. I'm looking at the Denon 591 for that.

I don't know when we will actually watch 3D as none of the current 3D movies interest us and we won't be buying a 3D-BD right away. We are moving up from a 12yo CRT however and it seems prudent to spend a few extra bucks now rather than feel a need to buy another TV before the new one dies. The Panasonic 3Ds are their best 2Ds.

Based on the information in your replies, I'm now thinking I should just get a Panasonic 28/48/485 player/recorder to get CC from DVDs and be done with it. I wish the Panasonic recorders had a better reputation but I was visiting a friend over the weekend who has been using a 47 for several years with no problems so hopefully I will be equally lucky. Comcast assures me our current box will send CC from that end.

Anyone actually using a 28/48 for CC or have an opinion on that option -- especially as to picture quality from the 28/48 vs an old non-upconverting DVD player?

The Panasonic DMR devices that have a built-in ATSC tuner happen to decode captions from DVDs and videocassettes as well as from over-the-air television broadcasts, and interestingly, their analog captions will have the color and size that you've selected for digital captions. (I have a Panasonic DMR-EZ485V purchased from Costco in the fall of 2008.) Keep in mind that Panasonic DVD recorders that don't have a built-in ATSC tuner would not necessarily decode captions; it's only the stand-alone devices with ATSC tuners that are presently required to decode captions for television transmissions. (We're lucky that the Panasonic DMR devices decode the caption data from all of the video signals just before the video output; not all video devices with ATSC tuners are designed to do that.)

If possible, I'd suggest doublechecking as to whether the Panasonic HDTV decodes captions on the component video input just in case. S-video is the next level down in terms of video quality from component video, but if you can get captioning via the component video input, at least you won't have to suffer the poorer quality from composite video. Seems a shame there's no support for S-video as this might be useful in some cases.

Thanks again dmulvany. I think I'll pick up a 485 on my next trip to Costco and hold it until I need it. They are no longer shown on Costco.com and may disappear from the stores as well. They had them discounted a few months back and I assumed there was a new model on the way but that doesn't appear to be the case.