HDMI not allowing Closed Captioning? - Page 2

I haven't reread the posts above yet (so I forgot our previous discussions), but it is certainly possible for the player to parse the CC info and overlay it onto the picture prior to transmitting to the TV over HDMI.

There is however no standard for the player to embed the data in the HDMI signal and have the TV's CC mechanism display the CC info.

Depending on how you like the CC data video overlay done by the player this may make anywhere from no difference to a world of difference to you.

Subtitles are activated from the DVD menu itself if you're watching a DVD, or if you're watching a movie, they're already visible (like a silent movie or a foreign-language movie) -- right?

Is that what you mean by subtitles are not the same as CC? I've had subtitles activated on DVD's and sometimes you can duplicate it (almost word-for-word) by also activating CC.

Subtitles on a DVD would be useful if you're TV didn't do CC, that way you still get the benefits of a form of CC -- right?

Just trying to understand the differences.

My daughter is deaf and much prefers closed captioning to DVD subtitles. Subtitles are typically used only to display spoken dialogue whereas closed captions commonly include unspoken contextual information such as [Telephone ringing] or [Dog barking outside]. She also feels that CC text is more readable than subtitles (depends on font and color).

Before I started conversing on this thread with OP I didn't even realize CC and Sub-titles had different information, but now I realize that most people who use this stuff prefer CC data and presentation over subtitle data and presentation.

I don't use this stuff so it isn't that important to me, but based on the description of how CC is superior, I understand why these folks prefer it over subtitles.

Hi, I ran into this problem today. I recently "upgraded" to a Sony PS3 to play my DVDs and Blu-ray discs, but when I tried an old Inspector Lynley SD DVD today it only has CC and no subtitles, and I couldn't figure out a way to get this to work via the HDMI connection to my Sony tv. The PS3 only appears to allow output at 480p or higher, and not 480i like my old dvd player could do in order for the CC to work. And of course the PS3 will not do the work itself of decoding and displaying the CC. Lame!

I am a bit hard of hearing and CC helps me a lot. I also was disappointed when I got a HDTV and couldn't get CC on TV channels. I found I have to turn it on in the HD Cable box. I have the Motorola 3416. To access the proper menu I have to have the TV and the 3416 on. Power off the 3416 and immediately hit the menu button. This will bring up a B&W screen. By arrowing down I can enable CC. under that are a lot of options you can set. I set the font size to small. the lettering to white with a black drop shadow, and a transparent background. It's great. Small, but readable text that is fairly non intrusive. Foe DVD's , yeah I have to use the subtitles. When the current DVD player dies I'll check around for one that hopefully does CC in hi def, but I won't buy anything Sony because of that root kit garbage they pulled with their music CD's.

!@#$! I'm screwed! This thread confirms the CC problem especially with DVDs at 720/1080 whatever. I bought my first HDTV which is a 37" Sharp Aquos from Costco. The best it can do is to provide CC over component at 480i only. What's worse is that I ordered a bigger Samsung 4051 online and got it to replace the first before I realized all this.

No way will I settle for lowly DVD subtitles and almost useless HDTV.

I was not aware of this thread and started another one in DVD players

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=846346

The results were similarly discouraging though.

I also pestered via phone/email number of DVD player manufactures [Toshiba/Samsung/Sony/RCA/Oppo/Kiss/Yamaha/Panasonic/Helios/I apologize if I missed anyone], FCC, TEITAC and NCI in order for the issue to gain more visibility.

Unfortunately no one seems to be able/willing to help. Short of asking everyone to start calling DVD manufactures I do not know what else can be done.

The email from NCI described the situation as "cruel":

"Note that the FCC mandate for captioning covers "broadcast only".
Thus, the decoders are built into the tuners of the TV receivers. All
other inputs on these sets and monitors alike bypass the tuner so they
do not fall under the FCC mandate. It is cruel and hopefully the
manufactures and Standards committees will do the right thing in the end
but that is how the law fits for now. "

At this point I am hoping that one of the engineers working for the software based players (KISS/Helios) will put support for closed captions as an easter egg, as the official path does not seem to lead anywhere.

I am using an HDTV with my cable company's HD box. Closed captioning was not available via the TV menu, but I was able to activate it from the cable box's menu. It's a Motorola DCT6416III. The box's menu is accessed by pressing the "menu" button on the remote when the box is turned off.

Closed captioning is not just for the deaf....my old mom, can follow along the plots much more if she is reading the text vs only listening to it. And this is true not just for the British stuff. Supposedly reading along is keeping more neurons active too

On my Samsung I am surprised how often on HD the signal does not have the CC....it says NOT AVAILABLE, on content that normally would.

Yes my cable box has its own CC options....but this is a major failing of the new HD system....this CC was handled about 15 years ago....hard to believe they screwed it up.

As you have probably found out by now, CC features are now almost exclusively designed for broadcast signals, not DVDs. While CC and subtitles are different, they are similar enough for 99% of consumers, therefore, I wouldn't expect much to change in the future. The DVPNS90V can be easily found online, however, very few B&Ms carry that model.

Huh ?! What makes you say this ? Closed Captions on DVDs worked perfectly fine until we switched to digital connections.


DVPNS90V ? How is this model related to the problem discussed on this thread ?

avs2099, If you would you would so kindly read the entire thread rather than the last couple replies, my post would make perfect sense.

you want me to go back more than one page ? ;-)

Seriously though, DVPNS90V was a name sony support droll threw at blesum to get him off his back ..... It bears no connection to the problem at hand. Its manual does not even mention the term closed caption - http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/mod...DVPNS90V&LOC=3

Wikipedia entry for HDMI was updated in May'2007 to make a note of closed caption problems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-De...oning_problems

The section ends with:

"Of course, it is possible that a future enhancement of the HDMI Specification may encompass closed caption transport."

Not holding my breath .....

My wife is deaf, and I have grown accustomed to watching TV with captions. We have entered the HDTV lifestyle and have had mixed results. Here is what we have discovered:

DVD's:
The Subtitles are usually preferable by us, except they usually do not display words to music, sound effects or incidental sounds. True CC usually does show words to music etc. I suspect this is most likely due to licensing requirements. For some reason the DVD Subtitles are occasionally unreadable on some DVD's, forcing us to use CC instead. We have actually connected the DVD player to the TV with both an "S" Video cable (for watching with CC) and HDMI (for watching with subtitles).

Cable Box:
We have found that the root level menus on typical Motorola Digital cable boxes do have a CC option that you can turn on and off. While this works on most channels, including digital channels, it is difficult to turn on and off so can be annoying even to my deaf wife when watching sports or other shows that captioning isn't desired. This does seem to be the only way to get CC on HDTV channels thru the box.

Basic Cable and Over The Air/Antenna (OTA):
Our HDTV's seem to work fine with CC over the air or with basic cable, even on digital channels. Digital channel CC seems to be delayed a second or 2 longer than analog for some reason. (Digital signals have a bit of latency anyway due to decoding issues.)

There are many new DVD players out now that have a De-Coder in them to De-code
the Closed Caption. Look good on the net.... Look under HDMI DVD players with
Closed Caption....You will find them for about $124.00 up.... I am still tryingto find one
that is a (5) disc DVD player that has a de-coder in it fortheclosed Caption...

Well people the DVD player people have got it going at LAST! Yup! they got it finaly!
Yes Sir you can get a DVD player with a De-Coder in it now! And you can use the
Closed Caption with the HDMI cable....... About time!!!!!!!

I just got an Olevia LCD and switched my Comcast box to an HD box [Comcast finally started giving HDMI cables with the box; last year they would not]. Using the HDMI we couldn't get cc. Thanks to this thread, I am using the cable box's cc. It seems to work ok, but some of the commercials aren't in cc. My fiance' is hearing impaired, but I havegrown acustomed to reading the cc as I watch. Though sometimes it does get in the way of some juicy scenes.

I'm glad you are seeing CC.

However I wouldn't describe it as CC "working" over HDMI.

Rather it is more accurate to say your source device has a builtin CC decoder and it is overlaying the CC text information on the picture prior to sending the picture to your display over HDMI.

The reason I make that distinction is because the earlier problem described had to do with the source device *not* having a CC decoder. With 480i it was able to work by using the TV's internal CC decoder (sending the CC info over the wire). Once the person switched to HDMI, then there was no way to send that CC information to the TV.

So the solution is to find source devices, STBs, DVDs, etc. that have CC decoders builtin. Actually I think all STBs from Motorola and SA have CC decoders builtin so I don't think it was really a problem before.

It was the DVD players that were the main issue because prior to HDMI, they just passed through the CC information to the TV over the interconnect and piggybacked on the TV's internal CC decoder.

Could you provide us with model numbers so we know what you are talking about ?
Based on my experience your post sounds too good to be true.

Hello All,

I have Time WarnerCable... I have a DVR Box from them with a HDMI cable set up.
My HD TV has a HDMI set up also... So I set the HDMI cable up with my TV and all.
The Closed CAption comes out fine, but the TV Pitcher jumps about 6 Incher to the left
when I use the HDMI Cable. Ant one have this problem????
Thanks...
Dan

This is simply untrue. No product like this exists on the market today.

I have a Toshiba 32 inch LCD HDTV and am using Time Warner with a HD cable box and connected with an HDMI cable and cannot get CC at all.

Please stay on topic. This thread is about the (im)possibility of getting Closed Captions from DVDs via HDMI. We do not care about cable boxen here.

That's what I would have thought, but I did a little searching and turned up a surprise: the Yamaha DVD-S659. The product page doesn't say anything about CC, but looking at the manual turns up a setting (on p.30, under "Video Settings") for "Closed caption" that can be set to on or off. The accompanying language is a little ambiguous, though:

"Before you select this function, please ensure that the disc contains closed caption information and your TV set also supports this function."

Read literally, that suggests that the TV is still required to decode (and therefore) receive the CC information in the video signal. However, if that's the case, why have a setting for it, since virtually all DVD players pass the line 21 CC's by default when outputting 480i? This seems to suggest that the player actually does have a CC decoder, and the bit I quoted above is a boilerplate warning that got cut-and-pasted in from somewhere else.

The DVD-S661 also offers the same option in its manual, and there may be other Yamaha players that do as well. Does anyone have one of these players and want to give it a try to see if it really can decode CC's and overlay them on an HDMI output signal?

PS: If you're looking for Yamaha manuals, the US site demands registration before you can view them. However, the global manual download page is much handier.

PPS: What the heck, I seem to be on a roll here. There's a discussion here where somebody with another Yamaha model of DVD player did get CC's to appear in a similar situation when he turned on the option in the player. This looks promising.

I had an email conversation with Yamaha back in May'07. They initially said all of their players will do CC over HDMI then they changed it to none. I think the wording in the manual is responsible for the confusion. The option in the DVD player menu is to enable/disable generation of line 21 captions via S-Video/composite output.

Here is the email from Yamaha support:

From supportreply@yamaha.com Fri Jun 1 08:50:50 2007
Return-Path:
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:49:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: Yamaha Support
Subject: RE: Re: Yamaha Electronics Support Case #00447930 [ [ ref:00D3F1z.50033E3Rc:ref ]

I have researched the problem and there are no closed caption spec's for HDMI. So none of the players will support HDMI closed caption.

--------------- Original Message ---------------
To: supportreply@yamaha.com
Subject: Re: Yamaha Electronics Support Case #00447930 [ ref:00D3F1z.50033E3Rc:ref ]

On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 01:54:59PM +0000, Yamaha Support wrote:
> All of our HDMI DVD players will show closed caption.

Could you double check ? I am talking about line 21 captions.
There is a difference between closed captions and subtitles.
Please check also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_captioning#DVD

>
>
> Best Regards,
> The Yamaha Customer Support Team
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> DVD, CD players [single and changers]
> Model:
> I am looking for a DVD player able to show closed captions when using HDMI to connect to the display.
>
--

Well, shoot. What would they be generating the line 21 captions from? DVD subtitles are stored as bitmaps, not text, so there's really no source for the text to create the captions. All I can think is that it would determine whether to suppress the captions already embedded in the 480i video...

The person reporting "success" is using HTR-6030 which has no HDMI connections:
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/p...l?CNTID=552126
He must be passing S-Video or composite through the receiver (do not ask me why is he doing this)