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HDMI not allowing Closed Captioning? - Page 4

post #91 of 187
So what DVD players out there now that can decode Closed Captions over HDMI?

P.S. I am more interesting in a DVD player only (not a recorder) since they are less expensive. But if there are no players then recorders will do.
post #92 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by YegorT View Post

So what DVD players out there now that can decode Closed Captions over HDMI?

Uh, that question (specifically the phrase "over HDMI") doesn't really make sense. Decoding, specifically, converts signals into video overlay. The vast majority of DVD players can decode subtitle signals and transmit the result over HDMI. Nothing can decode "over HDMI", since decoding happens in a device, not "over" a transport stream.
post #93 of 187
I'm late to the discussion, but I can offer this much:

1) It only makes sense that the CC function be dependant upon the source component and not the display, since the CC text gets inserted into the video signal - be that signal HDMI or component video.

2) I have a Samsung LN-T4669FX 1080p display, vintage late 2007, which has a "Caption" button on the remote. However, this button effects only what you see when watching one of the two internal broadcast tuners on the HDTV - either the NTSC tuner or the ATSC tuner. NTSC has standard CC and the button cycles between the CC1, CC2, and OFF settings. When viewing the ATSC tuner, the button cycles between the settings DTVCC1, DTVCC2, and OFF. Note that when there is a standard definition 480i subchannel broadcast over ATSC, sometimes there are both CC and DTVCC options available - and sometimes of course, there is no captioning at all in some source material.

3) I have a Toshiba HD-A30 HD-DVD player attached to the HDMI1 input. This player will in fact output any CC signal present on the source disk, and the CC function is controlled by the disk menu and cursor buttons. I have confirmed the function for HD-DVD, but not standard DVD (I don't watch standard DVD on this unit).

4) I have a TiVo HD DVR connected via HDMI2, which is a quad tuner settop box (two NTSC and two ATSC tuners paired together). This is a Series 3 TiVo with both Component and HDMI outputs - but the HDMI cable is required to enable the HDCP function which allows you to download and view copy-protected HD video over the internet broadband connection.

With this settop box, there is an INFO key on the remote which will detail the available CC options for the material currently being viewed. The available options are CC1 and CC2 for NTSC, DTVCC1 and DTVCC2 for ATSC, and sometimes both CC and DTVCC options for standard def digital subchannels over ATSC.

5) I have a PlayStation 3 connected via HDMI3, and I use it to play both standard DVD and Blu-Ray disks. Once again I seem to have access to any CC options present in the menu of the disk.

6) I have my old Panasonic RP-62 standalone player connected via Component Video to the Samsung. I use this for playing Letterboxed conventional DVDs only, for reasons unrelated to the CC funtion. (The Letterboxed disks are not scaled to fullscreen over the HDMI connection - either from the HD-DVD or PS3 players. This may be a limitation of the Samsung display - but if you set the player for 480p output and use Component Video, you CAN zoom the image to fill the screen width.) The CC function works just as before - whatever caption options are in the disk menu can be viewed.

Hope this helps someone.
post #94 of 187
There is a difference between "Closed Captions" and "Subtitles"

"Subtitles" are created in a DVD player - there is a button on a DVD player remote control which is called "Subtitles" with which you can command a DVD player to create Subtitles and insert them into images.

"Closed Captions" were transmitted to a TV in addition to video via Composite, S-Video and 480i Component (not 480p) and were decoded and shown by the TV - there is a button on a TV remote control which turns "Closed Captions" on and off.

About half of my DVDs do not have "Subtitles" but do have "Closed Captions" so I do need the ability to see "Closed Captions" on the screen.

Now we came to HDMI.

HDMI standard does not include ability to carry "Closed Captions" information to a TV in the same manner as it was with the old standards. So a TV can not decode and show "Closed Captions" because there is no this information in HDMI signal. That is it!!!

The only work around is for a DVD player to decode "Closed Captions" information from a DVD and then insert it right into images in the same way as it inserts "Subtitles" into images. Then image itself will contain "Closed Captions" text.

Well now most of DVD players in our days will not do it - they do not have ability to decode "Closed Captions" and insert them right into the image.

As reported in this thread several months ago some Panasonic DVD Recorders now started to do it.

I was wondering if some not so expansive DVD players could do it now?

Unfortunately my Sony DVP-NS78H DVD player does not do it so I do not have ability at all to see "Closed Captions" when I use HDMI to send signal.
post #95 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by avs2099 View Post

Please see post #48 in this thread.

I do not really have anything to add to what was already written in post #69 which is:
if you want to get captions from an upscaling DVD player over HDMI,
you need one of the following Panasonic models - DMR-EZ47VK/DMR-EZ27K/DMR-EZ475V.

I do not see DMR-EZ27K on Panasonic website.

It looks like it has been replaced by DMR-EZ28 (DVD Recorder).
Judging by the manual it looks like that DMR-EZ28 still supports Closed Captions over HDMI:
http://www.panasonic.ca/PDP/Operatin...z28-oi-eng.pdf

MSRP Price is Can$249.99
http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audi...er/DMREZ28.asp

It looks like it is the least expensive solution.

It looks like Panasonic DVD Players still do not support Closed Captions over HDMI :
DVD-S53
http://www.panasonic.ca/PDP/Operatin...s53-oi-eng.pdf
DVD-S55
http://www.panasonic.ca/PDP/Operatin...s55-oi-eng.pdf
DVD-F87
http://www.panasonic.ca/PDP/Operatin...f87-oi-eng.pdf
post #96 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinalfanatic View Post

A user at alldeaf.com forum posted that the Philips 5960 DVD player has a CC feature. I was wondering if someone can help me out with this.

I think that Philips 5960 does not support Closed Captions over HDMI.
I found its manual:
http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/d/d...37_dfu_aen.pdf

The manual says that TV has to support closed captions: "Before you select this function, please ensure that the disc contains closed captions information and your TV set also has this function."

So it means that Philips 5960 DVD player is probably just passing Closed Captions over composite, S-Video and 480i component connections for a TV to decode it.
post #97 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by YegorT View Post

HDMI standard does not include ability to carry "Closed Captions" information to a TV in the same manner as it was with the old standards. So a TV can not decode and show "Closed Captions" because there is no this information in HDMI signal. That is it!!!

The only work around...

This isn't useful to those who have a pile of existing NTSC DVDs, but I'd just like to point out that CC is an exclusively NTSC technology and therefore if you buy a European/Australian PAL DVD which has "English for the hard of hearing" subtitles (generally listed as a separate language from "English") you will see subtitles for dialogue in a roman font and the sound effects in italics. Such DVDs are easily obtained by mail order (but be careful! Plenty of DVDs have no EHoH). I understand finding a player in the US that will do PAL Region 2/4 is harder but possible.

Since CC is a hack on NTSC and not present in the PAL system used in most of the world, its omission from HDMI is not a defect in that standard and decoding the CC in the DVD player not a "workaround" but the right, proper and only thing to do.

You might also suggest to DVD publishers that they encode both CC and EHoH subtitles on all future NTSC releases. I would have thought that could be set up to happen automatically once and forever in their authoring systems.
post #98 of 187
I bought Monster THX Component cable to be able to see Closed Captions at Component 480i.
Picture quality of upconverted DVDs at 1080p HDMI is significantly better than 480i Component.
I have Sony 40V3000 LCD TV and Sony DVP-NS78H upconverting 1080p DVD player.
post #99 of 187
I have searched for hours and purchase a couple of players that seemed promising only to have to return them, but thanks to earlier threads on this forum I was led to panasonic which, in dvd recorders at least, does support both analog and digital CC. I was alerted in a previous post to model DMREZ27K and checked Best Buy to find they had model DMREZ28 which I purchased and brought home to test out. I turned off CC on my tv and in the dvd recorder setup menu turned on analog and digital CC. Then I put in a dvd of Stargate Tv Series season 1 which has CC but no subtitles. The CC displayed perfectly on the tv. I am very happy with Panasonic even though I wish they had this feature in the Blu-ray and regulary dvd players at least their hd upconverting recorders have it and I am going to write them an email thanking them and asking them to broden their support of this feature.
post #100 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw1973 View Post

I am very happy with Panasonic even though I wish they had this feature in the Blu-ray and regulary dvd players at least their hd upconverting recorders have it and I am going to write them an email thanking them and asking them to broden their support of this feature.

If you are going through the trouble of writing someone please include CEA.
Here is some info from another thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post10731790

FCC does not regulate DVD content. It is CEA who should provide guidelines to equipment manufactures.
They provide nice documents, praising status quo, instead.

Reading their doc "Using Closed Captions in the Digital TV Age" it seems the problem does not exist. The doc is currently available from their "HDTV Press Kit"

http://www.ce.org/Press/3229.asp

The best part is at the end in section 4:

4. How do captions work with content other than TV content (e.g., packaged media)?


...in contrast to digital TV, there are no government mandates for packaged media to include captions, nor are there government mandates for media players to decode the captions....


then they suggest using composite connection to watch closed captioned media and also provide a diagram "How to connect a DVD player via composite connection to your HDTV". After a while they realize :

... [o]f course, consumers may not wish to connect their media player to their high-resolution
(Enhanced Definition or High Definition) display using a low-resolution analog connector,
because doing so sacrifices some of the video quality. Certain high-resolution connectors [certain? all of them!] do
not provide a way for closed caption data to be carried from a player to an attached TV.
Therefore, if the media player is connected to a TV with a high-resolution connector (e.g.,
HDMI), the TV may not receive any caption data from the media player and may not decode
any captions from the packaged media........





I think their attitude is to wait it over. After a while no one will be using DVDs and the problem will disappear. I wish someone from the press would start asking them questions ....
post #101 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw1973 View Post

I have searched for hours and purchase a couple of players that seemed promising only to have to return them, but thanks to earlier threads on this forum I was led to panasonic which, in dvd recorders at least, does support both analog and digital CC. I was alerted in a previous post to model DMREZ27K and checked Best Buy to find they had model DMREZ28 which I purchased and brought home to test out. I turned off CC on my tv and in the dvd recorder setup menu turned on analog and digital CC. Then I put in a dvd of Stargate Tv Series season 1 which has CC but no subtitles. The CC displayed perfectly on the tv. I am very happy with Panasonic even though I wish they had this feature in the Blu-ray and regulary dvd players at least their hd upconverting recorders have it and I am going to write them an email thanking them and asking them to broden their support of this feature.

Thank you for confirming that Panasonic DMREZ28 supports CC over HDMI!
post #102 of 187
Uh, I think you misread that. I believe what tjw1973 confirmed was that the Panasonic DMREZ28 decodes closed captions and converts them to video overlay, so they can be transported along with the rest of the video via HDMI. Note how he says, explicitly, that he, "turned off CC on [his] tv".

It is great for a DVD player to decode closed captions, rather than just subtitles. I'll have to check into that, and pass the information along to the hearing impaired mailing lists I belong to, if folks having beaten me to it.
post #103 of 187
I am glad I found this thread, I now better understand why I have been having so many problems with missing captions or subtitles. I just encountered this same problem with no CC visible from Supernatural Season 1 DVDs (Season 2 however does has English captions) on my new Blu-Ray player with an HDMI connection, so I switched back to using my regular DVD player and component cables, set the CC option on the HDTV and it works fine. And I knew I could not view CC when the DVD player was set to output progressive scan video but I never understood why...
post #104 of 187
As an alternative, could I also hook up composite or s-video in addition to HDMI to my Philips 32" LCD HDTV? That way DVDs with subtitles could be watched via HDMI and the quality would be upconverted. DVDs with only closed captions could be watched over the composite connection with no upconversion. I've never hooked up multiple outputs on a DVD player and don't know if it is possible or recommended.

Thanks for any help on multiple output connections.
post #105 of 187
There are about 20 different mistakes in this thread, but to address just the big ones:
  • HDMI blocks Line 21 captions, period. There is no workaround whatsoever.
  • The Americans with Disabilities Act has nothing to do with built-in caption decoders in the U.S.; the Television Decoder Circuitry Act does. All TV sets 13 diagonal inches or larger have been required to decode captions since mid-1993. Other devices that display television signals, including some computer display boards and every HDTV device with a tuner, must also display captioning.
  • I know what you're all trying to say, but closed captioning just refers to any kind of optional captioning. DVD subpictures can be used for closed captioning; some DVDs come with real captioning using subpictures, but typical analogue DVDs in the United States use Line 21 captions only. (A class-action lawsuit was settled a couple of years ago requiring captioning on most DVDs from several studios.) So please don't act like closed captioning is a ridiculously quaint technology that should have been long since left by the side of the road in our glorious DVD future; all DVDs can carry captions as subpictures and NTSC DVDs can also carry Line 21 captions.

That's just for starters.
post #106 of 187
From my experience is that the DVD players are the ones tha let CC out, most DVD players that do CC will have in the setup an option for CC out some new PHILPS do have a CC option in the setup and do have HDMI.
post #107 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baikonur View Post

From my experience is that the DVD players are the ones tha let CC out, most DVD players that do CC will have in the setup an option for CC out some new PHILPS do have a CC option in the setup and do have HDMI.

Please provide model numbers so other people can verify what you are referring to. Otherwise your post sounds at best as an idle speculation.
post #108 of 187
DVP3960/37
dvp3962/37
DVP3980/37
DVP5992/37
this are on the US philips website, you all can look at the owners manuals of other models to see if they have that feature.
post #109 of 187
hey all.

Thought i would chime in on this. I have a TVIX media player that does 480 i/p, 720p, 1080 i/p. I have a panasonic plasma and a toshiba lcd. I had the TVIX connected via HDMI and found i could not get CC. I did some research and it seems that though the content is there, the technology was left out of the HDMI cable.

I switched to component cable and at 1080i i could still not get them. I tried 1080i because i read that progressive could not pass CC. I then went down to 720p, no go.
Then went down to 480p, no go.

Then went to 480i and the CC showed up. From what i understand the CC info has to do with your TV not the player. The player will pass along all the info on a disk but the TV has to decode the CC info.

What i find interesting is that this subject has been hidden in the HD market. If you cannot get CC from DVD or Blue-ray at 720p resolution and up, they are not telling us. Now do not confuse this with broadcast tv. HD TV can give you CC. This only deals with media.

Just thought you would like to know.
post #110 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris98007 View Post

From what i understand the CC info has to do with your TV not the player.

If you're using your television's closed captioning decoder, then you need to pass your television a signal containing closed captioning data that it supports decoding of. If your player has its own closed captioning decoder, it probably will only pass closed captioning data on analog signals, i.e., 480i. For higher resolution and digital signals, you are probably expected to use the closed captioning decoder or subtitle capability in the player, itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris98007 View Post

If you cannot get CC from DVD or Blue-ray at 720p resolution and up, they are not telling us.

Again, the intention is generally for you to use the disc's subtitle capability.
post #111 of 187
As far as I know Blu-Ray discs and HD-DVDs do not have any TV-decoded captions, only subtitles. Regular DVDs of course can have both.
post #112 of 187
I just made a post on the Sony board asking them to support hard in encoding of Closed Caption for the PS3. Please make a post telling them you would like Closed Caption hard encoding please.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/play...hread.id=44970

Thank you!!!
post #113 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by vatkat234 View Post

I just made a post on the Sony board asking them to support hard in encoding of Closed Caption for the PS3. Please make a post telling them you would like Closed Caption hard encoding please.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/play...hread.id=44970

Thank you!!!

There is a much older thread - started in 2007:
http://boardsus.playstation.com/play...ead.id=1929162

So far SONY has not done anything.
post #114 of 187
Sony is a bunch or lazy pricks not to support Closed Caption.

Thanks avs2099 I would have never found that old post that was over a year ago and Sony still has not done crap to support Closed Caption.
post #115 of 187
I have a philips 5992, as I though this would pass cc. Couldn't find this anywhere locally and ordered from amazon. I turned cc on and hooked up hdmi to my Samsung LN52A860 with no cc availble.

What does the "cc" option in this dvd player actually do ??? Every older dvd player I've ever used passes cc in the 480i signal. This does not work over hdmi in my phillips even with "cc" set to "on".

I only have 70% hearing since birth and I'd hate to have to yank out the player again & hook up the component cables.

Edit: I gave up getting this to work over HDMI. I setup the dvd player with component & hooked it directly into the component of the tv & unhooked the HDMI. I STILL CANT GET CC! If I hit the "cc" button on my tv remote while on the component input, I get "not support" on a popup/overlay on my Samsung. Is this a bug? I tried it with the dvd player set to both 480i & 480p with the same result.

Anyone seen this before?

I guess I _still_ can't get rid of my 2002 Sony KV30HS420 that DOES support cc in over component @ 480i.
post #116 of 187
You should only believe reports from people who actually own the equipment.
There has been only one report like this so far in post #69 about Panasonic.

People posting about Philips are misinformed at best plus they do not own any of the players they write about.
post #117 of 187
I also have a Panasonic DMR-EZ48V (DVD/VHS Recorder w/tuner) + Samsung LN46A630 (LCD Digital).

In general, when using an HDMI connector, the CC has to be displayed from the source unit transmitting the audio/video (e.g. cable box, DVD player, etc.). The TV will not be able to render CC text based on signal it receives through an HDMI cable

From HDMI.ORG (creators/developers of HDMI) - although HDMI transmits CC information across the cable, this is a known issue.

Is a problem, isn't a problem... yeah, it's a problem.

-www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#117

Options are to use another type of connection:
  • Component
  • S-video
  • Audio/Video
  • RF cable
(in order of best to lesser quality)
post #118 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyKay View Post

I also have a Panasonic DMR-EZ48V (DVD/VHS Recorder w/tuner) + Samsung LN46A630 (LCD Digital).

In general, when using an HDMI connector, the CC has to be displayed from the source unit transmitting the audio/video (e.g. cable box, DVD player, etc.). The TV will not be able to render CC text based on signal it receives through an HDMI cable

From HDMI.ORG (creators/developers of HDMI) - although HDMI transmits CC information across the cable, this is a known issue.

Is a problem, isn't a problem... yeah, it's a problem.

-www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#117

Options are to use another type of connection:
  • Component
  • S-video
  • Audio/Video
  • RF cable
(in order of best to lesser quality)

From samsungs website:

For your current, HD capable Samsung TV to decode Closed Captions in a broadcast, the signal from that broadcast must pass through the TV's tuner. As a result, on most current Samsung TVs with integrated analog/digital tuners, you can get Closed Captions on the digital channels your TV receives from sources attached to the Antenna In or Cable In jacks. Signals from sources attached to these jacks pass through the tuner.

Digital signals that pass into your TV through the HDMI, DVI, or Component jacks do not pass through the tuner, consequently, your TV can not decode or provide Closed Captions from these signals. You may, however, still be able to get Closed Captions if the device (the set top box, for example) you have attached to your TV using the HDMI, DVI, or Component jacks, is capable of decoding Closed Captions. Note that if this is the case, you will use the menu of this device to access, set-up, and control the Closed Captions.


Is it just me or this retarded? I have exactly 1 s-video and 1 composite (I _THINK_).

Hdmi: No CC support (Tested)
Component: No CC support (Tested)
S-Video: No output on the DVD player (phillips 5992)
Composite: I have 1 on the dvd player (not hooked up) as well as 1 on the tv. From the above text I have no idea if cc is supported on that input, but I'm guessing not.

In any case, when will manufacturers learn that telling someone to hook their brand new 2008 model TV up to a brand new modern dvd player VIA COMPOSITE is totally unacceptable?

I think I'm going to sell my Band of Brothers DVD on ebay for whatever I can get for it and then decide if it's worth buying on Blu Ray or not. Supposedly the Blu Ray version has Subtitles on the disc itself.
post #119 of 187
I think you misread what Samsung wrote:
Quote:
You may, however, still be able to get Closed Captions if the device (the set top box, for example) you have attached to your TV using the HDMI, DVI, or Component jacks, is capable of decoding Closed Captions. Note that if this is the case, you will use the menu of this device to access, set-up, and control the Closed Captions.

Closed caption decoding should take place at the tuner or playback device.
post #120 of 187
So why should the DVD player do cc decoding when in the past it was done by the TV?

99% of dvd players DO NOT DO cc decoding. It's not a reasonable assumption to assume the playback device is going to do it for legacy material.
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