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SDI vs HDMI 480i - Page 2  

post #31 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

I have a Pioneer AVi59 modded by Patrick of Lumagen for SDI output. It's mated to the Lumagen HDPro. I have run numerous tests, both using DVE and films, to see if there is a difference between HDMI and SDI.

Guess what - there is a measurable difference. The HDMI has noticable ringing on the DVE resolution test pattrern - there is none via SDI. Also, and I admit this may be subjective, viewing a movie via SDI seems more fluid with marginally better blacks and colors.

Frankly, I don't care why there is a difference, but I'd tell anyone to consider an SDI mod if they use a video processor that accepts SDI input.

PS: folks here don't take likely to 'blanket statements' - much better to share your personal experience. YMMV.

thanks Mike, do we need anymore evidence?, like I and others in this thread have said, SDI has proven better than HDMI time and time again, even on the same players and this is on a pure picture quality level, not considering all the other benefits

-Gary
post #32 of 175
If you look in the 59avi owners thread in the DVD forum (May-ish 2006?) you will see discussion that even with proper player settings the 480i from HDMI is not "correct" - what is on the DVD. There's a couple aberrations when moving up through the grayscale. Plus I can't recall if the 59avi outputs YCbCr. If you are picky, SDI is the best way.

larry
post #33 of 175
I agree Larry. It is a mystery why that is the case and why Pioneer did it this way.
post #34 of 175
Dave,
Carl did all his testing with Avia Pro test patterns and a Lumagen HDP (some function in it can display a value that can be converted to black level). Don't you have access to these? It would be cool if somebody could do a similar evaluation of the 970HD. Hint, hint.

larry
post #35 of 175
The 59AVi has one of the very best HDMI interfaces. It's one of few players that can actually output native digital interlaced component video over HDMI. The Pio and Arcam DV-79s go one better and can output YCbCr 4:2:2 video - supposedly just the same as SDI. But people invariably say an SDI interfce is better still. I've never heard anyone say there is no difference.

Nick
post #36 of 175
I own 3 or 4 HDMI players that are SDI'ed. SDI is better in each case, sometimes a small margin, other times it is larger.

The Oppo 970 is a lovely cheap transport though.
post #37 of 175
I think we all now agree SDI in practice is better, question is why or better can we expect a perfect HDMI player. The reason for asking is simple we need these kinds of tests in the new secrets tests for example. First there was a demand for 480i over hdmi now that we have a good load of them (about 10?) its time to have ways to compare them to SDI (as we all agree that is the accepted reference).

I really hope we are moving that way since who of us would not love a 'perfect' hdmi in the form of a cheap $150 player if only as a extra or to help out friends who are not willing to go the sdi route (and its costs and troubles).

Daniel.
post #38 of 175
A bit off topic but I'd love to hear SD-SDI/DVD comparison with HD-DVD. And will we be seeing HD-SDI modded players and VP's? Has anyone seen HD-SDI?
post #39 of 175
I wish santa could give me a HD-SDI modified HD-DVD and Blueray player 4 christmas. i`ve been realy good this year.
post #40 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Dave,
Carl did all his testing with Avia Pro test patterns and a Lumagen HDP (some function in it can display a value that can be converted to black level). Don't you have access to these? It would be cool if somebody could do a similar evaluation of the 970HD. Hint, hint.

larry

Larry,

I don't have access to the Oppo 970, but if you want to buy me one I'll gladly take it. I can probably get manufacturer accommodation pricing too

I also don't have a Lumagen anymore, so if you want to ship that along with the Oppo you're more than welcome to!!!
post #41 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by c722 View Post

but isn't doing this a bit out of the way ? guys I'm not disagreeing SDI is superior at the moment. My point is, ideally both should be the same.

Well ideally no one should live in poverty in first world countries. Alas, the reality of situations is not always so rosey.

The moment you do one thing to the video between the MPEG decoder and the HDMI board, the picture stops being the identical.

Quote:


Unless someone can tell me it's technically impossible to achieve the same in HDMI. (I'm having high hopes on the Denons)

Well Denon doesn't have the greatest history of doing things "right", so I wouldn't pin too much hope on them.

It's certainly not impossible to have a bit identical HDMI out, but by the time the money men have picked over the machine, and any design failings have been factored in, the DIY approach will usually make more sense.

Quote:


I'm referring strictly to the mod. I've not done a SDI mod myself, but I have done audio mod before (simple changing of capacitors/clock chip). The skill makes some difference.

Being the addition of a digital interface, it's different from a parts upgrade. The audio analogue of SDI is I2S, something I'm intending to add to my DVD player sometime when I find the time. The same rules apply with I2S (and unlike SDI and HDMI, I2S is genuinely and demonstratably much superior to SPDIF).

Quote:


The connections done at an aftermarket mod, IMHO, usually does not match the clean connection in an integrated PCB.

Point to point wiring can in fact be superior to a PCB.

Quote:


Especially when you tap a chip via its pin out. The current drain and DC grounding itself is already an issue (well at least for audio we have to try to see).

SDI is connected up by paralleled single ended cabling, so grounding isn't an issue assuming it's soldered properly, and I've yet to see a player without sufficient internal current headroom to support the mod.
post #42 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigk View Post

will we be seeing HD-SDI modded players and VP's? Has anyone seen HD-SDI?

The more expensive version of the Crystalio II comes with 2 HD-SDI inputs. The Vantage-HD has an optional dual HD-SDI input expansion board.

Reports say that both Toshiba's and Samsung's HDVD players have already been successfully HD-SDI modded.
post #43 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

The more expensive version of the Crystalio II comes with 2 HD-SDI inputs. The Vantage-HD has an optional dual HD-SDI input expansion board.

Reports say that both Toshiba's and Samsung's HDVD players have already been successfully HD-SDI modded.


Very damn cool. I can't wait to see this.

Question - With the path of HD-SDI being:

HD-SDI Source -> HD-SDI Video Processor -> HDMI Display (1080p)

Will HDMI negatively impact the signal?
post #44 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigk View Post

Question - With the path of HD-SDI being:

HD-SDI Source -> HD-SDI Video Processor -> HDMI Display (1080p)

Will HDMI negatively impact the signal?

With HDMI 1.0 - 1.2 yes! Why? Because a good VP internally calculates in 10bit 4:4:4 and HDMI 1.0 - 1.2 can not transport that. So the VP has to dither the video data down to a format HDMI 1.0 - 1.2 can understand/transport. HDMI 1.3 with its DeepColor feature should be able to transport the video data in the same format the VP is ending up with, so there should be no loss in image quality (provided there are no transmission problems like jitter, dropouts or whatever).

However, the big question is whether there's a *noticable* impact with HDMI 1.0 - 1.2. Maybe yes, maybe no. I can't really answer that question.
post #45 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

J. Mike, I have a DV-59Avi also and have been thinking about SDI modding it. One thing that bugs me is that the "direct" mode on the 59 will not pass BTB. A person has to enable additional processing to get it to pass BTB which may be one reason why SDI is better than HDMI on that particular player. But before I speculate, can you tell me if in fact you get BTB/WTW via SDI?

Mark,
I have both AVIA and DVE, and for both patterns, the SDI interface does pass BTB.

BTW, just watched UltraViolet last night via the DV-59AVi. The story natch, sucked big time, and after the 1st 40 minutes or so, I started to lose interest. But the movie is serious eye-candy, and is about the best mastered SD title to date. Compared to my Toshiba HD-DVD, the only major issue is the lack of resolution, otherwise, the colors and contrast are very close to HD-DVD standards. There is still a lot of life in SD-DVD, which still makes my investment in SDI a good choice that will serve for some time to come.
post #46 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigk View Post

A bit off topic but I'd love to hear SD-SDI/DVD comparison with HD-DVD. And will we be seeing HD-SDI modded players and VP's? Has anyone seen HD-SDI?

This is highly unlikely if the HD players are built to HDCP licensing requirements. Those requirements state that no unencrypted video data buss can be exposed. That means either the unencrypted video must remain inside a chip or must be routed on internal layers of the PC board using blind vias. In layman's terms that says there is no place to solder to.
post #47 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

This is highly unlikely if the HD players are built to HDCP licensing requirements. Those requirements state that no unencrypted video data buss can be exposed. That means either the unencrypted video must remain inside a chip or must be routed on internal layers of the PC board using blind vias. In layman's terms that says there is no place to solder to.

Glimmie, but DVD players also have to implement HDCP. And lots of them are SDI moddable. Why should things change with HDVD?
post #48 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Glimmie, but DVD players also have to implement HDCP. And lots of them are SDI moddable. Why should things change with HDVD?

In theory the HD players aren't supposed to exposed the signals requied to hook up the HD-SDI interface, however I think the early kit has been shown to expose the signals required, but its not gauranteed in the future.

John.
post #49 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post

I was thinking the same thing Mark. If you use the "DIRECT" mode out of the 59AVi then it "should', you would think, be pretty much the same as SDI Although I have found the same thing you mention to be true with mine also.

My take on it is if you feel that the small amount of image quality is worth the added expense of going SDI, then just do it.

There are so many variables that can creep into each one that I think personal experimentation is definitely in order to see which combo works best and/or makes it worth the money.

From reading the mega DV-59 owners thread on the DVD forum it sounds like most of the gurus that did a lot of testing there don't use "direct" mode and enable some processing to get around the BTB problems and get a better picture. This has basically convinced me to SDI mod the 59. I'd like to have at least one pure source to feed into a quality scaler and then let the scaler do it's thing.
post #50 of 175
Has any one use the Marantz DV9600 as a digital transport and compare the SDI vs HDMI?
post #51 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Glimmie, but DVD players also have to implement HDCP. And lots of them are SDI moddable. Why should things change with HDVD?

I wasn't aware that HDCP requirements extended to SD DVD. The do have CSS and Macrovision on the NTSC & Y/C outputs. I have even seen some with Macrovision on the Y component output. But even so, the players that have been modified are all older models where HDCP was not required even if it is now. HDCP implementation is rather new even though it has been discussed for the past three years.

There is however the issue of manufacturing cost. If you look through the "Poor Man's SDI" thread, you will see there are a few new players that have combined MPEG decoder chips which include the analog DACS and NTSC encoder. Here, the digital video buss is not accessable. This is simply a result of large mass production where the engineering costs of a model specific single ASIC pay off. You can't sell DVD players at Wall-Mart for $39.99 with third party chip sets and multilayer PC boards to interconnect them. Be assured this will happen to HD DVD palyers as well.
post #52 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I wasn't aware that HDCP requirements extended to SD DVD.

FWIW, all HDMI equipped DVD players have HDCP activated. Doesn't that mean that the HDCP requirements do apply to SD DVD players? Why else should they activate HDCP on the HDMI output? They could differentiate themselves from each other if they did NOT activate HDCP. But still every DVD player has HDCP activated, and I believe to have read multiple times that this is legally a must.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

But even so, the players that have been modified are all older models where HDCP was not required even if it is now.

That's not true. There are several HDMI equipped DVD players (all of which have HDCP activated on the HDMI output) which have been successfully SDI modded. E.g. Pioneer's flagship player, all the Arcam DVD players and also an Oppo, just to name a few examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

There is however the issue of manufacturing cost. If you look through the "Poor Man's SDI" thread, you will see there are a few new players that have combined MPEG decoder chips which include the analog DACS and NTSC encoder. Here, the digital video buss is not accessable. This is simply a result of large mass production where the engineering costs of a model specific single ASIC pay off. You can't sell DVD players at Wall-Mart for $39.99 with third party chip sets and multilayer PC boards to interconnect them. Be assured this will happen to HD DVD palyers as well.

That's quite possible/probable. But still only some DVD players are built this way, not all. And it's only done to reduce cost and not to make SDI mods impossible.
post #53 of 175
the only players without HDCP are those that somehow bypassed the test by avoiding having to sign the HDMI/HDCP/DVD license agreements (E.g. Oppo, Bravo).
post #54 of 175
are there any HDMI(not DVI) based DVD players that don't have HDCP?

-Gary
post #55 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

are there any HDMI(not DVI) based DVD players that don't have HDCP?

-Gary


Not that I have come across but you 'can get' some discs where HDCP isn't applied as no copy protection is needed and the HDMI output does not have HDCP. Superbits are lovely

The easy way around HDCP is to have a DVI out player and them HDCP is not mandatory, as others have hinted at already.
post #56 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalc3 View Post

Has any one use the Marantz DV9600 as a digital transport and compare the SDI vs HDMI?

I've used one for a while running 480I 4:2:2 10bit to a Pioneer XDI Plasma. Picture was excellent, I might be able to borrow the player to compare my SDI modded DV-868 if anyone is interested.

Right now I'm more interested in a HD player with I-Link for Audio, all these players with one HDMI output cause problems for poeple like myself who use an audio only preamp with a video processor.
post #57 of 175
Gary,

HDMI implies HDCP
post #58 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

From reading the mega DV-59 owners thread on the DVD forum it sounds like most of the gurus that did a lot of testing there don't use "direct" mode and enable some processing to get around the BTB problems and get a better picture. This has basically convinced me to SDI mod the 59. I'd like to have at least one pure source to feed into a quality scaler and then let the scaler do it's thing.

Yes, I know that direct mode shouldn't be used, for that very reason. That was the point of the comment I made about it and why I said should when talking about direct mode output. You'd think that since they called it DIRECT, that it would be just that without clipping of the head and toe room
post #59 of 175
Thread Starter 
Wanting SDI and also wanting a media server ..... makes everything a huge pain in the butt !

Anyone using the XCARD with the SDI-out option from Pixel Magic ?
Is there any othe way to get SDI out of an HTPC/MediaServer ?

- Andy
post #60 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Lammer View Post

Wanting SDI and also wanting a media server ..... makes everything a huge pain in the butt !

Anyone using the XCARD with the SDI-out option from Pixel Magic ?
Is there any othe way to get SDI out of an HTPC/MediaServer ?

- Andy

I wonder if it's possible. The Sigma chip in it has the scaler intergrated into it, which would suggest it's not possible, but the Crystalio II uses one, which would suggest it is.

Have you tried asking over at Pixel Magic's forum? Good luck, I'd like to know the results, too.
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