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Noticable Difference in Sound - Page 2  

post #31 of 203
Thread Starter 
I'm not a trained listener either. Is there such a thing? I've been playing guitar for almost 20 years (occasionally in bands) and have been going to concerts for even longer.
post #32 of 203
I was enjoying this debate from the sidelines, but I find the invoking of an anti-creationism argument in support of audio snobbery to be utterly preposterous.

Conversely, the audiophile and the creationist often share a predilection for eschewing the scientific method and asking the "non-believer" to accept something they cannot directly observe based on faith alone. (I am at least glad to read, Amfibius, that you are open to the idea of blind testing.)

I can accept that there are those who hear subtleties I cannot from bleeding edge electronics, but I need some shred of evidence aside from a multitude of testamonials.

Meanwhile, I will enjoy my meager $5000 system much as the imbicile enjoys his life with no insight into his unfortunate plight.
post #33 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amfibius

BTW I have no product to sell so you'll have to invent a new label for me.
You want a new label? Well, let's just say you don't want me to be the one who thinks it up. :D
(Oh, and the replacement of vinyl by CD was the single greatest advance in the history of audio.)
post #34 of 203
Well PULLIAMM I agree ... I think that CD is a great advance over vinyl. But there are some things that old vinyl does very well, like it just sounds more natural. I was running vinyl and CD until a short while ago, and then realized I wasn't playing my vinyl despite investing a lot of money in the format. I couldn't stand the crackles and pops, the poor timing, and all the other things you have to train yourself to "tune out". It was only a few years ago when I acquired a CD player which I felt was the equal of vinyl. Until then, CD had provided background music and vinyl was for serious listening.

Brad, my comment about creationists was purely designed to irritate him. Looks like it hasn't worked ;)
post #35 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hood
Conversely, the audiophile and the creationist often share a predilection for eschewing the scientific method and asking the "non-believer" to accept something they cannot directly observe based on faith alone. (I am at least glad to read, Amfibius, that you are open to the idea of blind testing.)
All of science shares a shred of creationism. Our scientific theories fall apart at the level of quantum mechanics... We all have faith in our religions, whether they are science or creationism, and at the most basic level of reality neither is the whole truth. Science itself is the process of taking half steps towards a truth, you never reach truth if you can only take half steps, an idea heavily discussed in Kuhn's "The Nature of Scientific Revolutions".
post #36 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber
All of science shares a shred of creationism. Our scientific theories fall apart at the level of quantum mechanics... We all have faith in our religions, whether they are science or creationism, and at the most basic level of reality neither is the whole truth. Science itself is the process of taking half steps towards a truth, you never reach truth if you can only take half steps, an idea heavily discussed in Kuhn's "The Nature of Scientific Revolutions".
This is certainly true of "cutting-edge" science. Some areas within science, however, are well enough established to be considered facts rather than theories. These include the physics of medium-sized objects moving well below light speed, the laws governing chemical reactions, and evolution (the fact that it occurs, rather than the exact details.)
post #37 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM
This is certainly true of "cutting-edge" science.
Quantum mechanics is the very fabric of everything. Even if it is cutting edge science, it changes all previous theories. Do our old frameworks work within our limited perception of action? Yes. Are they correct? No. We live in a subjective universe where objectivity is an illusion. We influence the very experiments we want to claim are objective by simply being there with a point of view. This works both ways. An objectivist is influencing his/her experiment for his/her outcome and the subjectivist is influencing his/her experiment for his/her outcome. Quantum mechanics is hardly cutting edge nowadays, it just isn't understood by many people because its precepts border on mysticism and make all our other paradigms moot.
post #38 of 203
Thread Starter 
By and by, we take it on faith alone that these old frameworks will continue to work as we believe they will despite modern science showing us that they could change in unpredictable ways at any moment...
post #39 of 203
"I can not provide evidence that my ears hear a difference between a $2000 CD player and a $200 CD player, any more than I can provide evidence that a $500 bottle of wine tastes different to a $5 bottle of wine. I could start telling you about the length, the softness, the wood ... but it would all be meaningless to you if you have no frame of reference. And I get the feeling that some of you really have no frame of reference. "

Actually you can. very easily. You will need another human to help (the assistant)
here is how:
1. Get an airline sleep mask (one that can cover your eyes with minimal intrusion). You can get these at any store that sells travel paraphernalia.

2. Set up the 2 cd players with IDENTICAL interconnects to an amplifier. If you want a switichng box, you can get switchers that are purely passive. Basically I am talkng about mutiple RCA inputs, switchable to the same output. These are available for $30 or so. They are purely passive (in other words no power supply needed, nothng active going on here. The wiring in these is uniform across different inputs.

3. Set the volume of the 2 CD players to identical db using a 1khz tone and a rat shack sound meter mounted on a tripod. (if you have a laptop, you cna easily generate a 1000 hz tone. THe rat shack meter is $35. The tripod is a cheap camera tripod).

4. Have your computer generate a random number that is 1 or 2, a sequence of 15 numbers. Only the assistant should see this, not you. designate the first Cd player as 1 & the second as 2.

5. Have the assistant follow the random series, and play the same song (or set of songs) in the players in the order. So, if the series is
1 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 1 2 1 2 2 2

then the assistant will play the same set of songs on the 2 cd players in that order. First the first cd player, then the secnd, then the first 3 times, etc. Let us call these plays.

6. You need to be listening, and doing the following. At the end of each play, identify WHICH CD player was playing, and also if you preferred the play that just ended with the previous play.

At the end of the experiemnt, see your percentage of correct guesses. 50% is random chance. Also, see if your preferences were consistent. For example, with the example random series shown above, if you say you prefer Cd player 2 over 1, then you should have written, BETTEr, WORSE, NO DIFF, NO DIFF, BETTEr, and so on.

The above will SCIENTIFICALLY test if what you are hearing is actually dependent onwhat you re seeing, or not.

Share with us your results.
-abajaj11
post #40 of 203
substitute an inexpensive VOM for the RS meter and measure the voltages at the speaker terminals and you're better off.
post #41 of 203
It's amazing how I can stay away from this section for so long and check back in to see the same old people arguing over the same old thing.

You'd think people would get tired of it by now.

Some of you guys should try to get your own talk radio program. Then you can just hang up on someone when they disagree with you. It'd save you a lot of energy.
post #42 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski
It's amazing how I can stay away from this section for so long and check back in to see the same old people arguing over the same old thing.

You'd think people would get tired of it by now.

Some of you guys should try to get your own talk radio program. Then you can just hang up on someone when they disagree with you. It'd save you a lot of energy.
An outstanding observation. I once stayed away from this site for a year. When I came back it was the same people arguing the same points, taking over every thread and turning it around to the same argument. And it never stops. Cables, transports, amps, speaker break in, etc. Its a huge merry go round. It would be interesting to see what the evolution of this board would be like if only about 6-10 people (who will remain nameless) would take off a year like I did. Would we get the same arguments but just by different people? It's not enough that one holds an opinion, everyone must share that opinion or be challanged and attacked. And this is not a subjective viewpoint :p but an objective one as can be proven by doing a search for posts by those 6-10 people and looking at the history of their posts. :D
post #43 of 203
Thread Starter 
Sort of like coming home for the Holidays? You can't wait to get there and eat some Turkey, but after about ten minutes you can't wait to leave again...
post #44 of 203
One side believes that personal observation is more important than repeatable tests and theories. The fact that that side is consciously chosing ignorance, pretty much prevents them from learning anything new. Nonetheless, I still believe no one can be infinitely thick skinned, so I try to reformulate my ideas until other people actually understand them. There are certain people who are clearly hopeless, but there are also people like Amfibius that understand my ideas, even if his observations don't line up with mine. The bottom line is that I hope to find people who disagree but understand what they are disagreeing with so that I may have a conversation that advances the field of audio reproduction. The hopelessly ignorant are... hopeless. Its just that its hard to post without the course of discussion hijacked with nonsense like "blind tests are unscientific" and "all that matters is what you personally observe "

I don't think anybody really thinks "all" CD players sound the same, but in general I feel that you can find effectively transparent CD players in ALL price ranges, not just the botique brands.

I don't post because I like arguing with the fringes of insanity, but because I hope to find people with REASONABLE opinions that are actually based in fact rather than random and ignorant.
post #45 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
...I don't post because I like arguing with the fringes of insanity, but because I hope to find people with REASONABLE opinions that are actually based in fact rather than random and ignorant.
But the fact is that regardless of the post, be it about transports, speakers, or whatever nobody hardly ever finds anybody with what they consider to be reasonable (as they define it) opinions. So the same people enter the fray and off we go. I see very few new people on this site with opinions. Most newcomers are looking for advice and looking for opinions, not offering, so all they find is the same group of people offering the same retred opinions about the same retred stuff and consequently most of the new people leave never to post again. Or a few of them become infected and start to insult and argue like the oldcomers, and very very few really have the tenacity to stick around and offer any new material. Look at any speaker, amp, receiver, CD debate and you will know exactly what I'm talking about. And I must add that I have never participated in any group that had so many scientists, electronic engineers, or experts "trained" in how to listen. It's probably why our country is starting to take a back seat in the scientific community, they aren't at work they must ALL be here. :(
post #46 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico
It's probably why our country is starting to take a back seat in the scientific community, they aren't at work they must ALL be here. :(
ROFL! That was amusing. :p
post #47 of 203
[quote=Amfibius]I am not a trained listener, just a trained musician :) Well, playing music is my hobby so I know intimately well what a piano or a violin should sound like. And if I forget, I just walk next door and pick up the instrument. You can't get closer to reference than that ... can you?

Well, that is not an immunity from not hearing audible differences. Better professionals thought they could:

Gould, Glenn, "The Grass is Always Greener in the Outtakes," High Fidelity, Aug 75, pg 54-59.

As well as non professionals, not much difference.

And I get the feeling that some of you really have no frame of reference.

Just a body of science in audio, what has been published, what is known, what the limits of hearing has been established, etc. Oh, a few DBT listening tests over the past 30 years or so.

I guess you just have to take my word for it unless you want to fly down to Australia and let me demonstrate the difference to you on my system. Oh, and it's not just my word for it - the number of people who would disagree with fringe lunatics like CharlesJ must be something in the order of 1000:1.

Ah, a fringe lunatic and you have 1000 who disagree with me??? Did you count them all??? Good for you. But, as a scientist, your claim, who knows, that is not evidence, nor anything. Worthless anecdotes, isn't it???

Honestly, having to debate such widely accepted facts


HUH??? What widely accepted facts? Who is on the fringe now???
You are confusing urban legends, voodoo, bs with facts??? Just as I suspected, even a member of skeptic can be biased in his hobby. Would not be the first time.
As I said, maybe James Randi foundation will be interested in testing you???
post #48 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber
I'm not a trained listener either. Is there such a thing? .
Yes, there is. Contact Harman International or the National Research Council in Canada that conducts acoustic testing in audio with trained listeners. Or, AT&T as a start.
post #49 of 203
[quote=Amfibius]But there are some things that old vinyl does very well, like it just sounds more natural.

That is very subjective as the facts just don't support your contention. Compare the numbers for accuracy. It cannot be natural when it is not accurate. But, it can be pleasing to some who think it is natural. Easy to be fooled.

I acquired a CD player which I felt was the equal of vinyl.

Oh, that can be designed to be euphonic. Rather simple to design.

Brad, my comment about creationists was purely designed to irritate him. Looks like it hasn't worked ;)

Irritate me? LOL.
post #50 of 203
If the James Randi foundation was prepared to pay for my flight over to the U.S to test me then i'm all ears (bad pun not intended). A quick google of James Randi shows that he is out to test paranormal claims, like water divining and telekinesis and so on. Doing a quick search of his site shows that he has indeed debunked claims of special CD tweaks in the past, but nowhere has he made a claim that CD players do not sound different. Especially a $200 and a $2000 CD player. Maybe I missed it - if so, would you be kind enough to link me?

In any case, I am not trying to tell you that a little magnet on your CD player will magically improve its sound. In no way do I believe such garbage like that, or green pens or CD polishing or CD surface treatments or whatever.

I am simply telling you that your assertion that there is no difference between a $200 and a $2000 CD player is false. I dont think I am making an argumentum ad populum (simply because a lot of people believe in a proposition does not make it true) because time and time again, people have demonstrated that CD players DO make a difference.

Just to amuse you, later tonight I will compare my $5000 CD player (Cary Audio CD-306) with my $300 Toshiba DVD player. I have them both set up to run into my preamp and it's just a matter of level matching (which I can do, since I have a CD of pink noise and an SPL meter) and getting my wife to switch the preamp inputs for me. I have identical CD's which I can load into both players. I'll bet you that I will get it correct 100% of the time.

Oh, and here is another test I can do. My CD player can switch upsampling modes on the fly, from 44.1kHz to 768kHz. I can tell the difference between 44.1kHz, 512kHz, and 768kHz. The difference between 96kHz, 192kHz, and 384kHz are too small for me to detect. To me, they all sound better than 44.1, worse than 512, but little difference between them. I can do the test blind and probably be able to report what upsampling rate is being used reliably. These are my listening impressions from before:

44.1kHz - very good, but compared to the other upsampling modes the CD is slightly lifeless.
96 - 384kHz - slightly better imaging but high treble is more prominent.
512kHz - the smoothest sounding and most natural setting of the lot.
768kHz - instruments lose their definition.
post #51 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski
It's amazing how I can stay away from this section for so long and check back in to see the same old people arguing over the same old thing.

You'd think people would get tired of it by now.

Some of you guys should try to get your own talk radio program. Then you can just hang up on someone when they disagree with you. It'd save you a lot of energy.
The funny thing is, its always the same people too. Gotta love the 'ignore user' feature, although their words still creep in via quotes :D
post #52 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ
Yes, there is. Contact Harman International or the National Research Council in Canada that conducts acoustic testing in audio with trained listeners. Or, AT&T as a start.
I was being facetious. What people hear isn't the same for any two people, so it is a silly concept IMO.
post #53 of 203
Thread Starter 
They probably go to the same school as trained smellers...
post #54 of 203
I don't know what's up with your post atdamico. I thought the information in the thread by Queue was pretty useful. He commented that he heard a difference playing an HDCD disc on a player that didn't support the format. The importance of matching level differences was pointed out to which was added the impossibility, afaik, of setting those levels using test tones since they wouldn't be HDCD encoded therebye ensuring a level mismatch which would skew the ability to make a fair comparison between the two players. It was further suggested that comparisons be made using a non HDCD disc using proper level matching. Really, what was so egregious with this?

If it's the same old $hit that you've been reading about then it's the same old $hit that's been pointed out in StereoPhile and elsewhere. Often we need to back to basics like 2+2=4.
post #55 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amfibius
Oh, and here is another test I can do. My CD player can switch upsampling modes on the fly, from 44.1kHz to 768kHz. I can tell the difference between 44.1kHz, 512kHz, and 768kHz.
This is one of the best applications I have seen so far for the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". :rolleyes:
(44.1kHz was chosen as the standard because it can reproduce all waveforms up to 22.5kHz exactly, not just approximately.)
post #56 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
The importance of matching level differences was pointed out to which was added the impossibility, afaik, of setting those levels using test tones since they wouldn't be HDCD encoded therebye ensuring a level mismatch which would skew the ability to make a fair comparison between the two players.
It should be mentioned that Mr. Hansen pointed out that the HDCD is 6dB higher compared to the normal CD, so if that was skewing the results, the Denon should have sounded better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen
3) The 6 dB level change (if implemented on a particular disc, more below) would make the Denon *louder* than the Ayre, and not the other way around. So this would tend to make the Denon sound "better" when comparing discs.
post #57 of 203
Tend does not mean 100%. Try repeating with a non HDCD.
post #58 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
Tend does not mean 100%. Try repeating with a non HDCD.
As I mentioned, though not directly, I did. Read up a few posts. The DVD-5910 vocal presentation was quieter compared to the rest of the sound, it had fuzziness/graininess/distortion, I'm not sure what to call it - but it had more static sound in comparison (i.e. the Ayre had more resolution and clarity). Take it with whatever grain of salt you like, you can read in the first post what other conditions are present between the two players (e.g. their cabling connections, cable types, etc).
post #59 of 203
BTW, I take it you've addressed any potential differences that have to do with bass management and all that.
post #60 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
I don't know what's up with your post atdamico. I thought the information in the thread by Queue was pretty useful. He commented that he heard a difference playing an HDCD disc on a player that didn't support the format. The importance of matching level differences was pointed out to which was added the impossibility, afaik, of setting those levels using test tones since they wouldn't be HDCD encoded therebye ensuring a level mismatch which would skew the ability to make a fair comparison between the two players. It was further suggested that comparisons be made using a non HDCD disc using proper level matching. Really, what was so egregious with this?

If it's the same old $hit that you've been reading about then it's the same old $hit that's been pointed out in StereoPhile and elsewhere. Often we need to back to basics like 2+2=4.

I was commenting on a post left by a user that was pretty much stating the same thing. Don't know what crawed up your as* but take a dump and clear your head. I never said that there wasn't any good information posted. And I never said that one couldn't learn something here either. But my comment that the same posters hijack many threads and turn them into the same debate that goes on for years still is valid. And I have a right to comment on it the same as anyone else. I didn't name names, I didn't attack anyone personally, so I don't see why you feel the need to do so. And as you have pretty much participated in many of those threads I commented about (actually on the side of reason and logic) I don't see what your issue is with me making a comment on what somebody else said.
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