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Noticable Difference in Sound - Page 3  

post #61 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski
It's amazing how I can stay away from this section for so long and check back in to see the same old people arguing over the same old thing.

You'd think people would get tired of it by now.

Some of you guys should try to get your own talk radio program. Then you can just hang up on someone when they disagree with you. It'd save you a lot of energy.
Good one!

larry
post #62 of 203
Well, I recorded the output of my Panasonic RP82 via the M-audio 2496's SPDIF input, and then ripped the same track via EAC from my PC cd-rom. I made sure the same samples were lined up, and then subtracted the wave form from each other and amplified the result by 40db. The end result was 100% measurable 0-bit silence, as in the difference between waveforms was not just "close to 0" but ACTUALLY 0.

I will also admit that before I got it lined up (and wasn't sure that they were indeed the same bit for bit wave form) that the EAC rip may have had "better bass" than the DVD players output. I am honestly saying that I did momentarily think this, but the results of the test indicate that theres NO POSSIBLE WAY there could have been a difference if the actual recordings were identical both via spdif in from the dvd player and error-tested rips off the CD-ROM.

I'll also add, that for all the hypothetical problems I could have had in the process of lining up the signals and making sure the sound card wasn't doing ANYTHING to the signal, it still ended up that they were bit-for-bit identical. Had there been a small error, it would have showed up in the amplified result of the difference between the signals.

It is for reasons like this that I think claims like "this sounded better than that" are either A) purely imagined or B) because some equipment is explicitly designed to "tweak" the signal so it is no longer what was actually recorded on the CD. It may be standard practice among most/all botique cd player manufacturers. It would also explain why supposedly cheap and inferior CD players "sound the same" (because they're doing a good job of passing the signal unmodified) whereas botique manufacturers add their own personal EQ to the signal to continue to differentiate their products.

Or it could be pure imagination, but I leave that test to the people with the ability to actually round up so-called-audiophiles and test their hearing.
post #63 of 203
All that you have shown is that two different CD transports were able to read a CD without any errors in the bitstream.

If there are truly audible differences between two CD players, the difference almost surely lies in the DAC or analog stages.
post #64 of 203
I have taken a dump and cleared my head :)
post #65 of 203
Uh, which is exactly my point. The test has to be apples to apples, man. A cd player reads reflected light off a CD and spits out a bunch of 1s and 0s. If you wanna compare the DAC in an expensive CD player to the DAC in an outboard box or an expensive preamp or a cheap home theater receiver, that was never the question. The question was two CD players fed to the SAME dac, or in other words the ability of SP/DIF to transport the stream without gross distortion and bit errors. It clearly can and does output a signal bit-for-bit identical to an error corrected PC rip, even in such "cheap" CD players like a Panasonic RP82 DVD player, which in reality isn't even cheap, its just not pointless-expensive-botique.
post #66 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
The question was two CD players fed to the SAME dac, or in other words the ability of SP/DIF to transport the stream without gross distortion and bit errors.
When was that the question? My impression from QueueCumber's original post was that he is using the analog outputs of the two players. The two players use the same DACs, yes, but I'm sure there are differences in the analog stages.
post #67 of 203
[quote=Amfibius]If the James Randi foundation was prepared to pay for my flight over to the U.S to test me then i'm all ears (bad pun not intended). A quick google of James Randi shows that he is out to test paranormal claims, like water divining and telekinesis and so on. Doing a quick search of his site shows that he has indeed debunked claims of special CD tweaks in the past, but nowhere has he made a claim that CD players do not sound different. Especially a $200 and a $2000 CD player. Maybe I missed it - if so, would you be kind enough to link me?

I doubt he pays travel for anyone but he has an email for that Q :D
Same for testing CD players. He was in negotiations to test the Quantum Dot tweak but the subject made too many excuses.


I am simply telling you that your assertion that there is no difference between a $200 and a $2000 CD player is false.

Well, it may be false as it would depend on the CD players you are comparing, right?
But, T$$ that is The $ensible$ound tested, DBT, an $80 RCA carousel player against a number of CD players costing $1000s. Yep, no audible differences from a number of test subject.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.


So, in this case, the CD player was even less than $200 against much more expensive ones.

By the way, what does price has to do with audibility???

Oh, some other CD DBT of the past:

Masters, Ian G 'Do All CD Players Sound the Same?' Stereo review, Jan 1986, pg 50-57.
Pholmann, Ken C. '6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Dec 1988, pg 76-84.
Phollmann, Ken C. 'The New CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Oct 1990, pg 60-67.



I dont think I am making an argumentum ad populum (simply because a lot of people believe in a proposition does not make it true) because time and time again, people have demonstrated that CD players DO make a difference.

How so? Where is that evidence? Citations please?

Or, just anecdotes and testimonials???

Again, some recent CD/DAC DBT's from Spain. Use google translator:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm



Just to amuse you, later tonight I will compare my $5000 CD player (Cary Audio CD-306) with my $300 Toshiba DVD player. I have them both set up to run into my preamp and it's just a matter of level matching (which I can do, since I have a CD of pink noise and an SPL meter) and getting my wife to switch the preamp inputs for me. I have identical CD's which I can load into both players. I'll bet you that I will get it correct 100% of the time.

Sorry, that will not do to level match. You need a sine wave and a good volt meter to measure voltage at speaker terminals. Voltage of the two players measure to 1% would yield .1 dB spl, th eneeded level matching. And at 100Hz, 1000Hz, and 10kHz if your meter can do that. SPL meter and pink noise will no do.

And, getting it 100% correct should indicate that there is something wrong with your setup.
Are these two cd players running simultaneously? Or, just listen to segments on one then the same segment on the other? If you are switching between the two while they are both running has a major flaw unless you are able to sync it to 1ms, next to impossible.
Is she in the room as well? If so, that in itself is biasing and has no meaning.
post #68 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
Often we need to back to basics like 2+2=4.

Yes, I feel for the math teacher who has to repeat this so often, day in, day out, year after year :D
Maybe, one day, it will be 5? :D
post #69 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM
This is one of the best applications I have seen so far for the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". :rolleyes:

I think he forgot that motto in his skeptic society membership :D
post #70 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
BTW, I take it you've addressed any potential differences that have to do with bass management and all that.
Yeah, I'm using the stereo outs and have the system set to 2-channel SRS off. There is no bass management of any kind unless I put it into multichannel mode.
post #71 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hood
When was that the question? My impression from QueueCumber's original post was that he is using the analog outputs of the two players. The two players use the same DACs, yes, but I'm sure there are differences in the analog stages.
Yes. I even stated that I think one among a few potential reasons is the output stage of the Denon isn't finessed. I've read somewhere that their OpAmps are fairly cheap compared to the pains that went into designing other parts of the system. For instance, the Pure Direct Mode allows you to turn off everything but the hardware used for playing back music, which is a nice feature, yet they cut corners on the output stage... Sort of silly, which is why there are a few people/places modding the higher end Denon DVD players' output stages.

Comparing the stored digital product to itself is pointless. All the things which can effect the sound occur in-between when the bit signal is being processed for output into analog form not when it is transferred as bits to another storage place and stored again. When outputted as a stream to be turned into analog form synchronization clocks can effect the timing of those bits, which will effect the sound, i.e. how that synchronization clock acts on the timing information encoded in the CD bit stream is important to how the music will sound. This would be irrelevant in a test such as the one Cowclops performed, since all he is doing is copying the bits, which doesn't change the timing like a synchronization clock does when it interprits the encoded timing information to feed the bits to a DAC at a certain rate. A possible example of this is the difference I noticed between the Arcam FMJ23 and the Rega Planet, which I mentioned earlier, where the timing was skewed to be more condensed on one. Another possible example is when two people started the same disc on a Wadia (on one of the headphone enthusiast sites online) and a Meridian at the same time, and they were a little bit off timing wise by the end of the song. Or was it the end of the album (I don't remember)?

Another issue not discussed so far is algorithms employed by CD players to interpolate between the bit information to create a more fluid analog form. Since this is highly proprietary, it is almost impossible to discuss except for the simple algorithms that aren't copyrighted. Different players employ different algorithms, some are unique to those players. Wadia and Meridian are two companies I've seen mention these on their websites, not many companies mention them at all.
post #72 of 203
Quote:
Maybe, one day, it will be 5?
Actually Charles, there are a few school systems, some in Wisconsin I believe, where it's deemed not important to get the correct answer. Close enough counts.

Quote:
Another possible example is when two people started the same disc on a Wadia (on one of the headphone enthusiast sites online) and a Meridian at the same time, and they were a little bit off timing wise by the end of the song. Or was it the end of the album (I don't remember)?
That would be interesting if one had a continuous track that lasted for the length of the disc. This 'trick' if you will has been used in the past by Linn I believe to give their turntables an ever so slight 'zing'.
In the end, it's interesting Queue. If I ever come up with some way to run test tones so that you can make a very accurate level match I'll pass it along.
post #73 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hood
When was that the question? My impression from QueueCumber's original post was that he is using the analog outputs of the two players. The two players use the same DACs, yes, but I'm sure there are differences in the analog stages.
Again, the salient argument is not that differences don't exist, but that any such differences are orders of magnitude smaller than the distortion introduced by even the best pre/pros and amps.
post #74 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM
Again, the salient argument is not that differences don't exist, but that any such differences are orders of magnitude smaller than the distortion introduced by even the best pre/pros and amps.
And I wasn't arguing whether electronics actually make an audible difference or not, just that Cowclops' experiment proved nothing relevant to the argument at hand.
post #75 of 203
Actually, at this point I can't even remember whether it was said in this thread or another, but someone said that some players "just extract more detail from the disc." Well, my "cheap" DVD player extracted just as much detail as an EAC error corrected rip in my computer, that is to say the exact same bits, and it succesfully fed those exact same bits to my sound card's SPDIF input to be recorded perfectly. It doesn't answer the question of "do some botique players purposefully add circuitry to distort/alter the frequency response of the sginal" and it doesn't answer the question "do some people subconsciously fabricate observations becaus, for them, it makes the hobby more fun?" but it does show that there is that there is no guesswork in reading data off the disc, even in real time.
post #76 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
Actually, at this point I can't even remember whether it was said in this thread or another, but someone said that some players "just extract more detail from the disc." Well, my "cheap" DVD player extracted just as much detail as an EAC error corrected rip in my computer, that is to say the exact same bits, and it succesfully fed those exact same bits to my sound card's SPDIF input to be recorded perfectly. It doesn't answer the question of "do some botique players purposefully add circuitry to distort/alter the frequency response of the sginal" and it doesn't answer the question "do some people subconsciously fabricate observations becaus, for them, it makes the hobby more fun?" but it does show that there is that there is no guesswork in reading data off the disc, even in real time.



If any "guesswork" was involved, then a cheap CD player that is used in every PC produced today would produce "digital" errors that would make a PC malfunction when the CD player is used to install a program.


Now if everyone is talking about using the ANALOG outputs out of a CD player, then maybe there is some difference in SQ.


If everyone uses DIGITAL outputs out of the CD transport, then how can there be ANY difference in sound???
post #77 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hood
When was that the question? My impression from QueueCumber's original post was that he is using the analog outputs of the two players. The two players use the same DACs, yes, but I'm sure there are differences in the analog stages.


Yup, this has just been another stupid discussion.

Use the digital output out of the CD/DVD player if you have decent receiver, and you won't be able to tell the difference in SQ!
post #78 of 203
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass
Yup, this has just been another stupid discussion.
If it is just another stupid discussion why did you feel the need to post?

I don't think you understood my original questions though, considering your recommendation is to hook my players up to a receiver and let it process the digital signal...

Charles Hansen and a few others gave some good replies when discussing how HDCD works, and how in some cases it flavors the analog output via its filters (I don't remember who posted it and I'm too lazy to go look). Also, I do believe the extra engineering, better parts, and quality control that went into the C-5xe makes a difference, as well as the balanced to balanced (internal handling of the signal in balanced modes between all my gear, since they are all using balanced connections except the DVD-5910). I'm not sure I believe the quality of the cables make a large difference, because I have never tried to actively notice a difference, but I do think the balanced interconnection between components which were designed to handle a balanced signal could be making a difference as there is no transforming of the signal from single ended to balanced being performed.

Very simply, to ensure I am not favoring the Ayre because of a difference in gain, I have for the heck of it, been turning the Denon up louder. It still has the same problems I mentioned, even at obviously louder levels. I also notice, even with it playing louder, that it is not revealing as much of the acoustical ambience of the recording space.
post #79 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass
Yup, this has just been another stupid discussion.

Use the digital output out of the CD/DVD player if you have decent receiver, and you won't be able to tell the difference in SQ!
I used to think the same until recently when I heard otherwise in my own system. I have 3 DVD players and one dedicated CD transport and they all sound different feeding bits to a Benchmark DAC1 The differences ARE there they are not imagined.

The engineer in me is still trying to find a reason but only comes up with rationalization.
post #80 of 203
But what did you do to remove the possibility that the differences were imagined? If there are differences, you should be able to identify them in a simple blind test too, right?

This is the fallacy that I do get pissed off hearing every time. Restating that the differences are "real" without actually using a test that you could legitimately draw such a conclusion from is not proof.

For a moment I thought an EAC direct rip "really" sounded better than the RP82, until I realized the same program was playing the same waveform to the same sound card. Subconsciously fabricated observations are not unusual at all, which is why the only way you can separate real from imaginary is to take a blind test and properly identify components by sound and SOUND ALONE. If you can identify by sight and not by sound, then it is not the sound that differs.
post #81 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai
Actually Charles, there are a few school systems, some in Wisconsin I believe, where it's deemed not important to get the correct answer. Close enough counts.
.

I need to run across those folks at the cash register on big ticket items :D But, $1 here and there will add up as well. :D
post #82 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass
Now if everyone is talking about using the ANALOG outputs out of a CD player, then maybe there is some difference in SQ.

Yes, exactly. But the only way to know for sure is a proper comparison, bias controlled, levels matched to .1 dB spl :D
post #83 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJRapp
I used to think the same until recently when I heard otherwise in my own system. I have 3 DVD players and one dedicated CD transport and they all sound different feeding bits to a Benchmark DAC1 The differences ARE there they are not imagined.
The engineer in me is still trying to find a reason but only comes up with rationalization.
How is one to know that it is real? One must conduct a proper comparison. Easy to be fooled as it happens all the time.
post #84 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJRapp
The differences ARE there they are not imagined.
When I read this, the image I get is of a kid with a red face and fists against his hips shouting "They ARE there! I'm NOT making it up!" :D
post #85 of 203
same as those who are crying out that "i hear no difference" while they dont know their hearing is impaired
post #86 of 203
Ad Hominem. Look up the definition, cpu8088.

I could be totally deaf and still conduct a test that determines whether YOU are hearing or subconsciously fabricating what you "heard."
post #87 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowclops
Ad Hominem. Look up the definition, cpu8088.
But Pulliamm's comment wasn't? :eek: That you choose to focus on cpu8088, and ignore Pulliamm for the exact same personal attack, is disingenuous. Of course, the glasses you are wearing are the same color as those Pulliamm is wearing, so you see the the subject of this debate in the exact same way.

------------------------
Ron Party
post #88 of 203
ron i am used to being the focus in this forum and this enlighten my boring life

just that i have not learned to imagine all sound the same to stop the upgrade urge. actually i envy those who cannot hear differences as they will save more money in the long run and perhaps happier music lovers
post #89 of 203
Pulliamm illustrated the fact that repeating a claim isn't the same as providing a convincing argument. That is why he conjured up such an image. Cpu8088, however, is baselessly attacking our ability to hear rather than our ability to reason, and as such that is an ad hominem attack.

CONTINUING to state that your hearing is superior and ours is inferior, without even in theory agreeing to a test that may confirm or deny the claim, is intellectual dishonesty at its finest.
post #90 of 203
hearing not superior just that musical senses more acute. thats the difference
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