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The Ultimate shootout begins ... - Page 2  

post #31 of 919
craigsub - When is the shootout scheduled for?
post #32 of 919
my questions for this sub are:

1. high pass filter...will one be used, and if so where and what order

2. power compression (@ 1.6kW), i thought i remembered reading on the SS website that they were 500 w/rms, albeit conservatively rated.


the lower you tune this thing, the higher the distortion/excursion will be in 20-30 Hz area...now throw power compression into the matter...hmmm...i wonder...it's going to be interesting seeing the results of the tests...I would prefer to see this sub tested against a dual-sealed application (hey, we can start the ported vs. sealed wars again :D )...call it the proof in the pudding, as the results would be viewable by all. ;)
post #33 of 919
Thread Starter 
Soho ... The drivers should be here the week of August 7 ... then it is squeezing the unit(s) through production.

If I am lucky, I will get to play with some of the tools ... :D
post #34 of 919
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kramskoi
my questions for this sub are:

1. high pass filter...will one be used, and if so where and what order

2. power compression (@ 1.6kW), i thought i remembered reading on the SS website that they were 500 w/rms, albeit conservatively rated.


the lower you tune this thing, the higher the distortion/excursion will be in 20-30 Hz area...now throw power compression into the matter...hmmm...i wonder...it's going to be interesting seeing the results of the tests...I would prefer to see this sub tested against a dual-sealed application (hey, we can start the ported vs. sealed wars again :D )...call it the proof in the pudding, as the results would be viewable by all. ;)
For the ported ... you seem to agree with Mike. The man DOES own the company, I think his opinion counts for something ?

That is not a decision, either, guys ... just a thought. The guy who makes the drivers likes the 17 Hz tuning ...
post #35 of 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54
Exocer - What size port are you using in your sims? Just wandering.
The graph doesn't take into account port resonances, so port size wouldn't matter in these graphs. Port diameter would come more into play when approximating port resonances and port air spead. The point was to show output vs. available xmax with the suggested allignment and ampage. I am sure an 8" or 10" port would suffice.
post #36 of 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac
Are you trying to make a DIY that would make a practical commercial offering (size, weight, cost)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sherv
dual RP-L15 D2's in an 8.5cu volume enclosure, with a nice 10" pipe or dual 6" pipes, slap a Fs=15hz, and you will have something to cheer about that will make any Ultra/2 dual EP600s dual HO turbos (pick your poison, etc) look like child's play.
(having a Homer moment here.........)

Outperforming nearly any OEM product is child's play. That's not the tough part here guys.

The real magic trick is determining how far an OEM can push the size/weight/shipping envelope and still retain a viable customer base.

Take the Acoustic Visions Everest for example. A DIY-OEM bridge offering if I ever saw one. Dual 15" Tumult, quad 18" PR, 10 ft3 enclosure, 410 pounds, beautiful woodwork, attractive design cues, relatively small footprint, no compromises on performance, and a steal for $2,500 ($3500 with suitable amp). And yet did the market embrace this well-conceived and executed subwoofer?

Dual EP600s cost about the same amount of money....and would get stomped by an Everest in any objective performance contest.

And how many EP600s is Axiom selling.......?
post #37 of 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by kramskoi
my questions for this sub are:

1. high pass filter...will one be used, and if so where and what order

2. power compression (@ 1.6kW), i thought i remembered reading on the SS website that they were 500 w/rms, albeit conservatively rated.


the lower you tune this thing, the higher the distortion/excursion will be in 20-30 Hz area...now throw power compression into the matter...hmmm...i wonder...it's going to be interesting seeing the results of the tests...I would prefer to see this sub tested against a dual-sealed application (hey, we can start the ported vs. sealed wars again :D )...call it the proof in the pudding, as the results would be viewable by all. ;)
You bring up a good point about distortion in the 20-30hz range...but let me play the Devil's Advocate and ask you this: With 800watts to each driver, you're getting close to xmax but never exceeding it really until the low teens according to Unibox. Would this distortion be realistically audible? One can assume distortion in a sealed allignment would be exponentially higher due to Xmax demands in the lower frequencies mentioned. :D
post #38 of 919
Thread Starter 
Ed .... We had a Denali here, and it was underwhelming in regards to sound quality. Several afficionados of the Tumult blamed the amp Kyle had at the time ... Does Kyle still make the Everest ?
post #39 of 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Ed .... We had a Denali here, and it was underwhelming in regards to sound quality. Several afficionados of the Tumult blamed the amp Kyle had at the time ... Does Kyle still make the Everest ?
My recollection (which admittedly may be flawed) was that the Denali outpointed or nearly equaled the Plus/2 on music.

Sadly, Kyle is apparently pulling out of the finished subwoofer business because it simply hasn't been a viable product line for him.

Regardless, my point was that the Everest is/was clearly a no-compromise design using what many still regard as the best 15" woofer on the market, and which would more than hold its own against a dual RL-P 15" ported reflex with 8.5 cubes tuned to 17 Hz. And unfortunately it didn't light up the sales charts.

It's not hard to design and build a subwoofer that will easily beat up on OEM offerings - even the relatively big/heavy ones like the EP600 or the VTF-3 HO or the Plus/2. Heck, why not just make it a quad RL-P 15" in 20 cubes with dual 10" aeroports and really add insult to injury?

Where do you draw the line on the size/weight/shipping issue? At what point does this merely become an academic exercise in the laws of physics and cease to become a legitimate comparison between subwoofers that consumers will actually consider purchasing and using in their own homes?
post #40 of 919
The thought of getting "more" distortion in the 20-30hz area due to a low tuning is silly for a couple reasons. First, you're still getting less distortion than you would in an equivalent sealed design. Second, better to be at risk of getting a little more distortion in the 20hz area with a low tune than in a higher frequency region with a high tune, as the distortion would make itself more audible in higher frequencies.


**Also, just to avoid any potential confusion, this DIY design is definitely NOT a LLT design. The type of design Craig is considering is a traditional ported subwoofer.
post #41 of 919
Quote:
Here is the email I received today from Mike at splintersound...
Quote:
...Indeed, the 5.8 cu ft net volume spec is an EBS (Extended Bass Shelf) style enclosure. I arrived upon the number through computer simulation since I myself have not built an enclosure that large - however, I have read of other projects aiming for the low lows and using a 15" driver very similar to our RL-p, and they used a large enclosure with great success. So you could say that this recommendation is both calculated as well as based on anecdotal evidence.
This is his 19hz recomendation.

SoundSpliner is a car audio company first and foremost, large and low ported boxes are out of their comfort zone. I'm not knocking them, just throwing that out there. I would rather see one of the current DIY home audio flavors of the month in your shootout, but that is just me. I would love to see how a monster sub compares, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It would be like leaving out Velo or SVS. :D
post #42 of 919
Thread Starter 
Ed ... It was a Kiega (sp?) amp in the Denali ... and for music, where the Tumult was doing the work, it was very good .. it was when the PR's took over that it fell down ... Several guys posted a different amp would have been a difference maker. In retrospect, I should have tried the Crown K2 with it ... :o

I was asking about the Everest, as it would have been a welcome addition to this shootout, especially with a proper amp.

Good points on the commercial viability of these huge subs ... one question we hope to answer ... How much does 20 cubic feet of subs enhance the theater experience ...

It would be a real treat to have you here for the GP session, too.
post #43 of 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen
(having a Homer moment here.........)

Outperforming nearly any OEM product is child's play. That's not the tough part here guys.

The real magic trick is determining how far an OEM can push the size/weight/shipping envelope and still retain a viable customer base.

Take the Acoustic Visions Everest for example. A DIY-OEM bridge offering if I ever saw one. Dual 15" Tumult, quad 18" PR, 10 ft3 enclosure, 410 pounds, beautiful woodwork, attractive design cues, relatively small footprint, no compromises on performance, and a steal for $2,500 ($3500 with suitable amp). And yet did the market embrace this well-conceived and executed subwoofer?

Dual EP600s cost about the same amount of money....and would get stomped by an Everest in any objective performance contest.

And how many EP600s is Axiom selling.......?
Not surprising given that Kyle Richardson is a marketing lightweight compared to Tom & Tom or Ian. Consider policies like:
"International Orders:
Orders are only accepted from the USA. Any orders placed outside of the United States not be honored. "


http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/policies/
post #44 of 919
Geez guys my ears are burning here! :)

Craig, I'm bummed I couldnt help you out with your project but Mike at SS is a great guy to work with and you'll really like the SS drivers. I'm sure your brother will build some nice enclosures for these units too.
Craig is correct, the Kiega did have its limitations and was the weak point in the unit. It's pretty difficult to find low purchase quantity components that work well together all while keeping the price point as low as possible for the consumer.

Ed is correct, I'm moving away from the prefinished products and am going back to my roots as a DIY supplier (supplier for parts and knowledge). It is where I began and where my business works best for both the customer and myself. The Everest was a model in which I never expected to sell many pieces. It was VERY customized for those that needed high SPL in large rooms but still wanted a piece that could be shown off and not hidden away. What it did very well, however, was to get people thinking and talking about what they could make themselves that is similar and I know of many more models that were cloned off of it compared to the amount of Everests that were actually sold. That got me thinking "hmmm, you know what? It's much easier for me to supply the parts and advice for customers to build something similar compared to actually building and shipping one of these 400 lb beheamoths." and that is where we are today.

Quote:
Not surprising given that Kyle Richardson is a marketing lightweight compared to Tom & Tom or Ian
Totally different companies with totally different goals. One look at the sites and products and that should be pretty apparent. Most DIYers dont need to be "marketed to" and already have an idea of what they want. If they have questions or are confused then they contact me and I will walk them through what products will work best for their situation. No marketing or a sales pitch, just good old fashion advice.

Many of the products I sell are also available in other countries such as Canada, Europe, or Australia and I will not infringe on their territories. With that being said, the US is a large enough area for my business and I have chosen to stay within its borders. Not too uncommon, really. For quite a long time I sold to every part of the world, but the fraud attempts were outrageous, and to be quite honest, I got sick and tired of it and chose to stay with the US.
post #45 of 919
Thread Starter 
Kyle... THRILLED to see you here. You have any Everest's you want to move ? :D
post #46 of 919
Quote:
Good points on the commercial viability of these huge subs ... one question we hope to answer ... How much does 20 cubic feet of subs enhance the theater experience ...
When I think of you firing up all the woofage you've got there, I immediately envision the power meter in "National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation" when he fires up the Christmas lights. :D

Your neighbors will be falling down the stairs from the massive vibrations, though, instead of the extreme light. Sweet.
post #47 of 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exocer
You bring up a good point about distortion in the 20-30hz range...but let me play the Devil's Advocate and ask you this: With 800watts to each driver, you're getting close to xmax but never exceeding it really until the low teens according to Unibox. Would this distortion be realistically audible? One can assume distortion in a sealed allignment would be exponentially higher due to Xmax demands in the lower frequencies mentioned. :D
when the voice coil heats up, to whatever degree, the Q (peak) of the box will rise in proportion...the higher the temperature, the bigger the peak, and the alignment is becoming unstable...i.e. the frequency response (sound signature) is changing...the resistance is rising and the amplifier chokes.

You also have the notorious BL drop as the excursion increases, this introduces more distortion to the system as you approach and exceed xmax.

This explains why some subs can maintain their composure better than others...cheaper subs will absolutely come apart when driven to high levels...the sound signature completely collapses...in contrast to higher end subs, which use much sturdier drivers, which, in turn, allow them to keep their composure even at insane levels.

The sealed subwoofer, is in no way immune to this phenomena. I guess it would depend on whether you are using an LT or PEQ boost down low. It (distortion) could indeed be worse but it has a constant air spring to fall back on and keep the driver from becoming unruly, thereby tamping down on distortion...



I'm not sure what distortion levels this sub will see but i'm sure there would be a discernible difference in an A-B comparison, albeit maybe at higher levels.
post #48 of 919
Quote:
SoundSpliner is a car audio company first and foremost, large and low ported boxes are out of their comfort zone. I'm not knocking them, just throwing that out there. I would rather see one of the current DIY home audio flavors of the month in your shootout, but that is just me. I would love to see how a monster sub compares, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It would be like leaving out Velo or SVS.
Yes that's the consensus in the DIY arena. I cant think of any recent or past projects that went with the suggested perimeters I see being discussed, but then I don't think Craig is shooting for a real representation of the LLT design?
Quote:
As i stated, the lower you try and tune this box, the weaker it becomes in the audible bass range...and this is the meaty part of the pie as far as HT slam is concerned...but that's the compromise...get low and give a little high...always give and take in sub design. It's what is more important to the end user that counts.
Good point except to say we're looking at a much higher degree of headroom than what the usual 12" drivers offer, so I favor the lower 16-17 Hz tune myself. I find no shortage in the slam dept. None the same.. It'll be fun to investigate the higher 18-20 Hz tune with some simple PVC glue and see what shakes out?
Quote:
Where do you draw the line on the size/weight/shipping issue? At what point does this merely become an academic exercise in the laws of physics and cease to become a legitimate comparison between subwoofers that consumers will actually consider purchasing and using in their own homes?
A very legitimate thought as always Ed, but then how many users do we see doubling up on what they have? Although it's a nitch market per say, would a LLT sono really be that extreme considering all the dual and triplets out there? Shipping such a unit is a breeze and well within the constraints that would discourage such a prospect I assure you.
post #49 of 919
Just a simple keep it up "Craig" You always have good stuff going. I am going to have to try one of these...
Mike L
post #50 of 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn
A very legitimate thought as always Ed, but then how many users do we see doubling up on what they have? Although it's a nitch market per say, would a LLT sono really be that extreme considering all the dual and triplets out there? Shipping such a unit is a breeze and well within the constraints that would discourage such a prospect I assure you.
"Extreme" is in the eye of the beholder, Steve. Will the market embrace a 20" diameter 56" tall sono LLT? There's only one way to find out. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig
Good points on the commercial viability of these huge subs ... one question we hope to answer ... How much does 20 cubic feet of subs enhance the theater experience ...
The answer will range from 'not at all' to 'quite significantly'. It all depends on your room size and preferred playback level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig
It would be a real treat to have you here for the GP session, too.
I don't have to be there to tell you a dual 15" reflex in a properly sized and ported enclosure will outperform - in an anechoic environment - your two current favs the Maestro and the DD-18.

And that's what's troubling me about this entire exercise. You have already stated a preference for the sealed alignment. And you have already stated the two best subs you have heard - in your eval room - are the Maestro and the DD-18.

Will the dual 15" reflex necessarily sound better than either in your eval room? Maybe it will exhibit a rising response and sound bottom heavy (something you've already criticized reflex for). Maybe it will have an inferior transient response (defined in this parlance as GD, impulse response, and spectral decay). Sure, it will play louder; you don't even have to build it to prove that - so what's the point of building it at all?

This exercise - in its current form - sounds to me like you are setting up the large reflex DIY for a fall. "It stunned our terrier unconscious at 10 yards during the GP session and it knocked small objects off the shelves during the HT evals, but it sounded bloated on music with smeared details and plenty of overhang and it couldn't hold a candle to the Maestro in SQ".

Looking at DIY as just a route to louder/deeper is myopic. DIY is whatever you want it to be - that is the real beauty of the concept. My suggestion is to play your own hand instead of someone else's. State your known preferences up front and try to do them one better. And definitely take your eval room into consideration and make it an integral part of your design.

Take a page from bosso's playbook and build a dual 15" 2nd order 0.6 Q sealed subwoofer of reasonable size which is designed to start rolling off at the approximate frequency which corresponds to the onset of room gain in your eval room. Then commission Phil Marchand to build a "BOSSIS" electronic interface. I'll let Bosso extole the virtues of such a unit, but in essence it will allow you to custom tailor the frequency response and the roll-of profile of your sealed subwoofer to provide a near-perfect complement to the acoustic transfer function of your room.

That DIY project would get my attention in a hurry.
post #51 of 919
Wow Ed, fantastic post.
post #52 of 919
Thread Starter 
Interesting post, Ed. While you may think you have some knowledge about what is going on in my head that I don't, you are mistaken,

For the record ... a few clarifications ...

1. I don't have a preference for sealed subwoofers. I think the Velodyne and Maestro sound better than their SVS, Hsu and Axiom competition. The trade off is the latter three will play louder for less $$$$

2. I am not setting up the large reflex sub for a fall. I asked, in open forum, for ideas in regards to the final design people would like to see.

What do I get ?

Stevenn saying he is too busy to send me his plans, then saying I am avoiding doing an extremely large box. Steve - I am not angry, but I am also not sure how asking for different ideas means I am ruling anything out. The final design may just be tuned to 13 Hz in a 500 liter box.

Ed Mullen suggesting I am "setting the large reflex design for a fall" ...

That is rigging a contest, people. I don't rig things. All listening, as usual, will be done blind.

If anyone wants to attend a blind test, then just ask.

For the record, Ed ... it has been theorized that tuning the box to under 15 Hz beings the best of both worlds, sealed and ported ... that is a fascinating concept.

I just happen to have 2 of the best sounding sealed subs on the market here, and 2 of the better known ported designs, too... so a listening comparison will be of use to some people. By the time this project is done, hopefully AV123's new BMF will be ready for some comparisons, too.

I will likely do something in the way of a large, high output, sealed design later this year.
post #53 of 919
Quote:
when the voice coil heats up, to whatever degree, the Q (peak) of the box will rise in proportion...the higher the temperature, the bigger the peak, and the alignment is becoming unstable...i.e. the frequency response (sound signature) is changing...the resistance is rising and the amplifier chokes.

You also have the notorious BL drop as the excursion increases, this introduces more distortion to the system as you approach and exceed xmax.
That all may very well be true, but what I believe you aren't taking into consideration is the sensitivity a large and low tuned dual driver subwoofer has. For normal to spirited levels (100db), it's just not seeing much power at all, only around 25 watts. It's only when you start playing at extreme levels that voice coil heat up could become an issue, and extreme bass levels are almost always short peaks, not drawn out passages. So basically what I'm saying is that in a beefy LLT design, it's not an issue.

Quote:
As i stated, the lower you try and tune this box, the weaker it becomes in the audible bass range...and this is the meaty part of the pie as far as HT slam is concerned...but that's the compromise...get low and give a little high...always give and take in sub design. It's what is more important to the end user that counts.
With an LLT compared to a more traditional ported design like Craig is considering, you'd be suprised how little headroom you are actually giving up in return for better sound quality and deeper extension. The larger enclosure = more sensitivity. It's only a compromise if you don't have the space. And actually, with the designs Craig is considering, I think you'd still get more headroom with the LLT anyway.
post #54 of 919
Craig, I thought you have some of the best speaker design guys at your disposal? Surely they can come up with a LLT design for you....and surely they see the overwhelming benefits in it compared to what you are considering? Your current design is nothing more than a commercial ported sub that will play louder with slightly less distortion - is that what you want to build?

There have been almost 0 traditional ported subs like this built in any of the more knowledgeable DIY sections that I know of for at least the past nine months, and there is good reason for that - LLT is better. If you had a better history with testing, I'd help you design this thing from start to finish....but as it is, I feel my efforts would be in vane.
post #55 of 919
Thread Starter 
Steve, since you decided to barge in with your typical attitude, I suppose I should respond.

I have not settled on any one design. The design as suggested by Mike G. was just that: his suggestion. It is not even "my" design. It is was he thought would be the best design for the subwoofer.

Try to keep this straight, would you please ?
post #56 of 919
Okay........for us dummies.......what's LLT?
post #57 of 919
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOTDIGITY
Okay........for us dummies.......what's LLT?
It is a term recently invented for Large Low Tuned box ... The fact that Electrovoice was doing them in the 1960's is not relevant ...
post #58 of 919
I know you guys have some history but lets try to keep this civil at least until page 5, or after the results are posted. :D

craigsub- What kind of box are you personally envisioning?
post #59 of 919
Quote:
Okay........for us dummies.......what's LLT?
My abreviation for a large and low tuned ported subwoofer is a bit more selective in requirements than a standard extended bass shelf subwoofer. In addition to the definition of an EBS, with a LLT, the port diameter must be at least 6", the first port resonance shouldn't be below 180hz, the tuning will be below 17hz, and it should be amp limited so that overexcursion can't be reached until an extremely low frequency so that a high pass filter isn't needed.
post #60 of 919
Thread Starter 
Soho ... For now, suffice it to say my thoughts included a 10 x 45 inch sonotube port. :)
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