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D*HD-Lite vs E* HD screenshot thread *WARNING - LARGE PICTURE FILES TO LOAD* - Page 6  

post #151 of 346
Hello everyone,

I am now finding a lot of threads that I might call home regarding a macro blocking (mpeg2 compression) issue. I just got FiosTV here in Tampa, Florida and I have a 92" 720 native HD Panasonic projector and I hate second guessing myself what I was seeing when I ran through HD content for the first time. I enjoy watching MTV-HD and the concerts were just going crazy with strobes and laser lights but I was seeing this degrading picture quality all the time between high intensity scenes.

I have called the Fios tech center countless amount of times and after a month of them saying it was me, I finally got a hold of someone that said it was them! I am not sure what they can do about this. Fios has not got back to me on how they are going to correct it. But what makes me pissed even more is how the hell all of you (customers) put up with a crap of a signal quality and let them get away with it.

I keep saying to Verizon: "Hey if this is the limits of HD technology for FiosTV and this is the best that you can do with the picture quality then admit to it and I will move on." But we keep playing these cat and mouse games.

I own a home theater consulting biz and there is no way I could or would show them a HD concert and say "You too can have this pixelization in HD!" They would walk out! So I am showing them static slow scenes of the Discovery channel of turtles anything that is slow. ;-)

Do any of you own a HD player? I believe that Blu-ray also uses MPEG2. Do any of you see this macro blocking when connected to a dedicated box?

Soooo...I am guessing that the best way to see what you are receiving is knowing the bit rate of what is coming in. I would guess that NO tech would even know how to use a spectrum analyzer or even know how to use it. Anyone have one near me? ;-)

Just so you can see what I am seeing and many of you I know what I am talking about but if you don't here is a sample of a MTV-HD concert before (normal) and after (macro blocking) when a strobe light in between that caused the blocking.

Thanks,

Steve.
LL
LL
post #152 of 346
Hmmm......someone that demonstrates HD at 720p in an attempt to show how good it looks.

Interesting.
post #153 of 346
I am a true PJ die-hard....I believe the best bang for the buck! I haven't got my hands on a VP11S1 1080p Marantz yet...can't wait though. Anyway, if I am seeing crap at 720 then 1080 will be no difference. But one thing is for sure is if we don't complain to the providers about the lack of quality of their content that they are dishing out to us then they won't do nothing about it. I am not sure from seeing others posting here if it really does but I am sure going to give it my all. And if not then bye bye HDTV!

Steve.
post #154 of 346
There are limits to how much bitrate can be given to any given length of time due to memory buffers and bandwidth constraints. Verizon can't fix PQ problems that originate elsewhere, and MHD can't give the concerts the 40 mbit/s or so they would need to be able to peak at to not block up on strobe effects. Every time the light flashes and then goes dark the content on screen changes so much that it really needs to be encoded as an I frame. However, I frames take like 3x the space of P frames, and 10x the space of B frames. 18mbit/s is just barely enough to sustain a "block-free" image for 1080i video, and when you get to lots of scene changes in a small amount of time, there's just no avoiding blocking. If you want to complain about it, go ahead, but it won't change anything. Multipass encoding with uncapped variable bitrate distribution isn't an option for a fixed system such as ATSC because there are specified standards for transmission and decoding buffers that can't be exceeded. Don't expect Bluray or HDDVD to look much better either since they have to live within certain profiles as well. Even regular DVDs from concerts suffer from blocking, and I would imagine that for HD cams that record in MPEG2 format that there would be blocking in that too, although not as bad since they would usually be recording at a higer rate.

When a clear case can be made for provider-specific overcompression such as the screenshots here comparing D* and E*, then you might have a valid issue. D* obviously doesn't care to provide top quality HD when they can get by with less. As long as the number of subscribers they gain by having more channels is greater than the number of subscribers they lose due to PQ complaints, they have no reason to change. AVS has fewer than 300000 users, and far less than that who actively participate and only a fraction of them are D* subscribers. As long as the members of this and similar communities the only ones who can tell the difference and care enough about PQ to change providers over it, they have nothing to worry about.

However, in this case, your complaint is with MHD. You would be able to watch that concert on MHD on Charter or Cox or anyone else carrying it and see the same thing. There's really no point in complaining to Verizon about it as they can't do anything, and you have to keep in mind that MHD is being sent to numerous different system operators who send to their customers at different rates via different methods. MHD has to provide a feed that will work for the largest number of systems serving the largest number of subscribers. They can't arbitrarily decide to start feeding at 45mbit/s and requiring the individual system operators to reencode their stream like a network affiliate. That would be extremely expensive and not worth the hassle or money.
post #155 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnickersonjr View Post

Xylon! Do you have any shots from the Gaming HD channel that E* has? I want to order E* for this channel! I have TWC at the moment.

GamePlay HD is very cool, alot of good content and they're adding stuff all the time, like the Guild Wars championship
post #156 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by golem View Post

GamePlay HD is very cool, alot of good content and they're adding stuff all the time, like the Guild Wars championship

I will see first hand on FRIDAY.
post #157 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon View Post

This should be very helpful information for the 5% or so of people who actually have TV's that can do 1920x1080. And of those, most of those dont pump out 60FPS at 1920x1080, so get ready for a lil motion sickness on those pans.

My TV does 1366x768, so i'll just use the first one as reference, regardless of who i subscribe to.

My TV is 1366x768 also, but I can always tell when a show is 1920 or blurred/color-reduced/re-compressed 1280.
post #158 of 346
Thread Starter 
Smart Travels with Rudy Maxa

D* 2.40 gb AVB 12.20 Mbps

E* 1.90 gb AVB 10.00 Mbps


From 17 Mbps to 10 Mbps on E* HDNET. D* now has a higher bitrate.

That extra noticeable difference in PQ is gone IMHO.
post #159 of 346
Now I feel hungry!
post #160 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnickersonjr View Post

I will see first hand on FRIDAY.

Well I have my equipment installed, it's just not working properly. I can pick up all of the HD channels fine, but when I try to tune to a regular channel no pic. Keeps giving me a "ERROR 002" Signal lost??? then it says trying to aquire signal. But never does. As far as PQ I'm impressed. HGTVHD, and GAMEPLAYHD looks wonderful. I also checked out HDNET, WorldNewsHD, Ultra, FoodNetworkHD, Equator and they look great too. No complaints on HD PQ. Not sure what HD-lite is, but it looks good to me! I can't tune to SD channels, so I don't know what they look like. I also like the way E* channel guide looks and works. Neat! Installation is the only complaint, he didn't check all me channels before leaving. i noticed 5 minutes after he pulled off. I tried to call his cell, and no answer. I called E* and they got ahold of him, go figure. So he's suppose to come back out today. We'll see.
post #161 of 346
Thread Starter 
HD-Lite looks good my friend . . . . . . . .

until you see what a full rez high bitrate version of whatever it is your watching looks like.
post #162 of 346
Thread Starter 
Mean Girls

D* AVB 10.00 Mbps

E* AVB 12.75 Mbps

D*

E*

D*

E*


EDIT:
I changed the original cap because its just too grainy.
post #163 of 346
no noticable difference between dish and directv but directv has the sunday ticket.

hmmm......i'll take directv, thank you very much.

are you ready for some football!?
post #164 of 346
Those Mean Girls shots look awful. The DishNetwork shot is only ever so slightly better than DirecTV, but nothing to get excited about. I'm very disappointed in the quality of HD that is being offered by these services. I can only hope that when DirecTV moves everything to Mpeg4, things will improve. But, how long will it be until they load so many channels on there that they even reach the limits of what Mpeg4 can accomplish and still look good?
post #165 of 346
Maybe it's how the screenshots were handled (no one is using the Dscaler5 mod?) but none of the screenshots in this thread even remotely resemble HD. It seems like the choice is between crap and more crap.
post #166 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Maybe it's how the screenshots were handled (no one is using the Dscaler5 mod?) but none of the screenshots in this thread even remotely resemble HD. It seems like the choice is between crap and more crap.

Must.Resist.
post #167 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Must.Resist.


must resist what? he speaks the truth. i know you're on a crusade here to demonstrate the superiority of dish over directv, but based on these shots it just isn't there. there may be some instances where it looks SLIGHTLY better to very trained eyes, but as Kram said, its more a question of looking at crap versus crap, as NONE of the shots made me jump out of my chair and exclaim "HOT damn! now THAT"S HDTV!!!!"...
post #168 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Must.Resist.

Sorry, but he's right. Most of these examples show so little difference in quality, I can't understand why anyone would go through the bother of switching from D* to E* based on quality. Now D* to Comcast or FIOS, that's a different story. Of course, if you're switching to E* based on the additional Vomm channels, then that's a valid cause. However, there just isn't enough difference in most cases to be worth a switch between the two. While E* is marginally better, it's like saying dog poop doesn't smell as bad as cow poop.

Finally, I have to say "We get it - D* has horrible HD quality." Continueing to post screenshots isn't going to make that any more clear. We get the point. I'd rather see comparisons to the same programming on Comcast and Fios compared to D* or E*. If you really want to show D* customers what they're missing, that's what we need to be seeing.
post #169 of 346
As I have said before watching HD from DirecTV on my 40" Sony XBR Direct-View looks extremely good to me. So ignorance is definitely bliss.
post #170 of 346
There is (was) a clear difference for us on our Sony 32" CRT between Dish SD/HD and DirecTV. I got rid of the HD from DirecTV because it looked so bad even on our smaller family room TV. Dish is MUCH better in PQ then DirecTV. My wife and I could see the differences right off the bat. Does it compare to C-Band HD? Heck no, but its a lot better than DirecTV.

I have just about given up on getting full bandwidth HD anymore. All of our local channels are sub-channeled now and the quality has dropped over what it was a year ago. So I will go with whoever has the edge on PQ and offers the most HD for the best value. At this time, that is clearly Dish network (for our location - FIOS will never show up here, and adelphia cable looks like garbage - digital or otherwise)
post #171 of 346
Duplicate. Please Remove.
post #172 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Sorry, but he's right. Most of these examples show so little difference in quality, I can't understand why anyone would go through the bother of switching from D* to E* based on quality. Now D* to Comcast or FIOS, that's a different story. Of course, if you're switching to E* based on the additional Vomm channels, then that's a valid cause. However, there just isn't enough difference in most cases to be worth a switch between the two. While E* is marginally better, it's like saying dog poop doesn't smell as bad as cow poop.

Finally, I have to say "We get it - D* has horrible HD quality." Continueing to post screenshots isn't going to make that any more clear. We get the point. I'd rather see comparisons to the same programming on Comcast and Fios compared to D* or E*. If you really want to show D* customers what they're missing, that's what we need to be seeing.

Let me know the moment FIOS HDTV programs can be cap and I will do the comparison.

You have no idea how appreciative members were when I did these screenshots. It did help make their decision to switching services (not necessarily to E*). If you care to read my responses instead of looking at just the "crappy" pictures I have no agenda. I make critical comments on both providers.

This is not for members who already know what is up. Its for the casual members and J6HP to help them visually of what the F*** we are talking about. We can throw numbers and statistics(not a criticism) but not all of us here understood them.

Before any members jump in to defend me there is no need to. There are apologists on both sides and we know who they are. Both providers offers services that fit our tastes and preference. I'm fortunate to get both, D* for their DirecTivo and foozball (not to mention I've been with them for more than a decade and the hardware I invested on them. 14 STBs and 6 satellite dish) and E* for PQ. I don't want these thread to go down the crapper like similar ones. This thread so far has been very civil and nice lets keep it that way. Yes?

If you have the equipment, visual acuity and want to get the best PQ between these DBS providers E* has the advantage. That is my very, very humble opinion.
post #173 of 346
well, i certainly have the equipment and the desire, so it must be my visual acuity then...

i do appreciate the screen grabs however...
post #174 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Let me know the moment FIOS HDTV programs can be cap and I will do the comparison.

You have no idea how appreciative members were when I did these screenshots. It did help make their decision to switching services (not necessarily to E*). If you care to read my responses instead of looking at just the "crappy" pictures I have no agenda. I make critical comments on both providers.

This is not for members who already know what is up. Its for the casual members and J6HP to help them visually of what the F*** we are talking about. We can throw numbers and statistics(not a criticism) but not all of us here understood them.

Before any members jump in to defend me there is no need to. There are apologists on both sides and we know who they are. Both providers offers services that fit our tastes and preference. I'm fortunate to get both, D* for their DirecTivo and foozball (not to mention I've been with them for more than a decade and the hardware I invested on them. 14 STBs and 6 satellite dish) and E* for PQ. I don't want these thread to go down the crapper like similar ones. This thread so far has been very civil and nice lets keep it that way. Yes?

If you have the equipment, visual acuity and want to get the best PQ between these DBS providers E* has the advantage. That is my very, very humble opinion.

I fully understand your position and it is interesting to see that there is a difference, even if it is small in most cases (the Riddick stills are probably the most blatent). However, neither provider is sending out what any of us should consider good quality HD. That is why I feel it does less of a service to compare D* to E*. If people see only a slight difference, there's less reason to demand better.

People have been speaking well of other services and it would be nice to get a real feel for the difference between the best quality from either sat company vs. what one could get from a better quality provider.
post #175 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

If you have the equipment, visual acuity and want to get the best PQ between these DBS providers E* has the advantage. That is my very, very humble opinion.

For how long ?????.
I have D* and will wait until the new sats are up and see what they do with there bandwidth and then I will make a choice if need be.
post #176 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by radius View Post

For how long ?????.
I have D* and will wait until the new sats are up and see what they do with there bandwidth and then I will make a choice if need be.

And I am hoping that, by the time I have to make a decision on switching to the Mpeg4 boxes, that FIOS will be in Queens, and have all the channels I require - YES-HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, Discovery HD, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, Setanta Sports (this last one is a deal breaker for me) - so that I can decide between the two. At this point, I've been DirecTV for so long (12 years) and I've sunk so much money into DirecTV (three dishes, switched 4 first-gen receivers over to 3 HD receivers + 2 HD Tivos, changed the multiswitch) it's not worth it for me to move to Dish for the slight gain in PQ that may very well be wiped out with the more channels and HD programming they add. Besides, Dish does not carry Setanta Sports, and I need that channel. Period.
post #177 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TulsaCoker View Post

As I have said before watching HD from DirecTV on my 40" Sony XBR Direct-View looks extremely good to me. So ignorance is definitely bliss.

I have the 32" and 36" version of this exceptional TV. DRC (Sony's version of a line doubler) used by this set make everything look much, much better than a regular HD tv. It eliminates scan lines on SD viewing including DVD. To this day I still use it as a reference viewing monitor. My projectors 720p AE900 and the 480p IF 4805 still gives me that HD(but not the maximum quality) look, but I want to see all of its 1920x1080i glory from my collection of HD movies including D-Theater and HD-DVD (sorry Blu ray). Thats why I have my eye on the Sony Pearl. Finally a full rez PJ that I can afford.


DRC = Digital Reality Creation
post #178 of 346
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoy View Post

Those Mean Girls shots look awful. The DishNetwork shot is only ever so slightly better than DirecTV, but nothing to get excited about. I'm very disappointed in the quality of HD that is being offered by these services. I can only hope that when DirecTV moves everything to Mpeg4, things will improve. But, how long will it be until they load so many channels on there that they even reach the limits of what Mpeg4 can accomplish and still look good?

I changed the screenshots so its less awful
post #179 of 346
Thread Starter 
Mr. & Mrs. Smith

D* AVB 8.22 Mbps

E* AVB 10.11 Mbps



If there is no fast motion, light strobes, explosions and bright lights in a movie D* PQ will be alright I guess as long as the bit rate is high enough
post #180 of 346
What decoder and player are you using for your screen captures? Both screenshots are soft, soft, soft.
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