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The official AVS Guide to HD DVD Authoring. - Page 4

post #91 of 3176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Ridiculously cheap, and pretty much *the* burner to get.

Everyone is aware that Nero is buggy as hell? I recently switched from the absolute latest version to Roxio RecordNow 8, because Nero started messing up my regular data back-ups.

Before anyone asks: no, I haven't tried burning HD DVDs with Roxio. It has no Xbox Compatibility option, by the way.

I've had lots of trouble lately with Nero data backups. Lots of errors and failed burns. I get a lot of "Could not perform end of disc" errors. I wasn't getting those before. Have others been experiencing this?
post #92 of 3176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxy_jason View Post

Yes, I have tried that. Same results, "can't read disc". I have done the
procedure exactly. I have also done the procedure with the MF5 project
set to DVD instead of HD DVD and it play just fine as a DVD.

Can somebody pleeease send a disc. If there is a player compatibilty
problem then it needs to be in the instructions.

PM me with your address and I'll send you a disc of some of my HDV footage that's been burned to HD DVD. (If I can get Nero to do the copy. Like I just said, I'm starting to have a LOT of bad burns with Nero.)
post #93 of 3176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitwize View Post

Anyone tried authoring The Fifth Element? the 1080i, DD 5.1 version. MF5 keeps wanting to convert it. Would be nice transferring this one as it's a blu-ray release.

And chances are your copy is as good as or better than the Blu-ray version of TFE. Greg Rogers recently reviewed the Marantz VP-11S projector in Wide Screen Review, and he did a sidebar on the Samsung Blu-ray player and TFE. He says it is barely distinguishable from the Superbit version on regular DVD.
post #94 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I've had lots of trouble lately with Nero data backups. Lots of errors and failed burns. I get a lot of "Could not perform end of disc" errors. I wasn't getting those before. Have others been experiencing this?

Yup.
post #95 of 3176
How do MF5/VS10 know what the maximum bitrate of an imported MPEG2 file is? I started testing something by saving a TS clip with H2M, then running it through VRD's QuickFix, then exporting the fixed clip into MPEG2 PS. I noticed VRD window listing the clip's average bitrate as 11.93mbit/s. When I opened the clip into VS10 and clicked the "i" icon for information, I noticed this:

Data rate: Variable bit rate (Max. 12443 kbps)

Now, my theory of why some files take forever to open into MF5/VS10: The application needs to scan through the entire file searching for bitrate peaks and locating the highest one. Why would it do that? There's a bitrate limit set by the application itself, and it needs to know the limit won't get exceeded.

Why do some files open quicker? Perhaps MPEG2 format allows listing both average AND maximum bitrate in first few headers of the stream - thus negating the need for scanning the entire file by MF5/VS10. Perhaps not all MPEG2 editing applications save both these values in the headers.

Texmex, any thoughts on this?

Further ruminations on the matter: Could it be that CBR (or VBR with padding to appear CBR) files load much more quickly, because Ulead has no need to scan the file for max bitrate? Does anyone have both CBR and VBR files on hand to test this?

Update:

I tried to test the hypothesis by using TMPGEnc Plus to encode a 1920x1080p24 VBR clip into a Elementary Stream (video only) 1920x1080p24 CBR @ 24mbit/s.

VS10+ opens the resulting file (447MB) in less than a second. No mention of VBR anywhere; info window lists bitrate as 24 000, like it should.

I then tried importing the original (converted from TS to MPEG2 PS with VRD) 300MB MPEG2 VBR (with DD5.1 audio) file. Whoosh! Less than a second as well. No hesitation. Info lists it as having Variable Bitrate (max 36000kbps).

So much for that theory.
post #96 of 3176
Good news folks!

I did a couple of test burns with Roxio 8 and both worked like a charm!

In the first attached jpg you see the main window. I selected Data > Data Disc as the project type. Then to Options, the button for which is in the lower right hand corner.

Options > Data > Advanced. There you can set the File System type. For my first test, I left Mode to Mode 1 and selected ISO Level 2 (212 character file names) as the File System. Disc played in my XA1 (with FW 1.2 no less) without problems.

For the second burn, I switched to Mode 2 XA (just for kicks) and set the File System to ISO+Joliet+UDF (106 character file names). To my surprise, this disc played without problems as well!

I have a hunch (need to test this at some point) that Mode 1 with ISO+Joliet+UDF would've worked just as well.

I suggest dumping Nero. I've been using Roxio for my data backups for a while now, and since it works with HD DVD, I see no reason to go back to Nero.

Oh, and before I forget. Roxio is owned by Sonic Solutions, the company which makes authoring tools for both HD DVD and BD camps.
LL
LL
LL
post #97 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

I have a hunch (need to test this at some point) that Mode 1 with ISO+Joliet+UDF would've worked just as well.

My hunch was correct. Mode 1 with ISO+Joliet+UDF File System works perfectly.
post #98 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtv_moron View Post

It's certainly possible it is Nero.

The A1 displays a little purple window with white lettering: "Cannot Play the Disc" and the front of the A1 displays "ERROR."

For Nero I tried both "techniques" in the first post. I tried the Nero technique #1 using the DVD-ROM (UDF) option with XBOX compatibility set. No luck.

I noticed the demo patterns disk had 3 folders, AUDIO_TS, VIDEO_TS and HVDVD_TS. MF5 only produced the HVDVD_TS folder. So I then tried technique #2 (DVD-Video option). Created the folders and files as recommended, etc. I also tried technique #2 with DVD-ROM (UDF) but the result was no different.

I am sure I missed something or there is a little detail in the instructions that should be there but isn't. Why would Nero technique#1 not require the addition of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS folders since MF5 does not create them?

I'll keep trying. Once I figure it out I'll post.

Thanks for responding texmex.

OK. I'm up and running.

The issue was either Nero or my burner or both.

My old computer (which didn't work) has a LITE-ON DVDRW LDW-851S. THe new computer (which did work) has a Pioneer DVD-RW DVR-107D.

Go figure.

THe strange thing is the test disk iso I mentioned before worked just fine and I burned it with Nero on the LITE-ON drive ?????

Anyways I'm up and running. Thanks to all for this very cool thread and providing the knowledge for doing this.

I think I'll have to go buy 100 DVD-R's now .
post #99 of 3176
Thread Starter 
I added some things to the guide at the end - called Frequently Asked Questions/Helpful Suggestions. I'll be adding a few more before long. Please review and let me know what you think.

I'd like to add a FAQ on DVD burners, the good and the bad. Could we have some reports on particular brands of drives to add to the recent ones that have been posted - both good and bad? (Such as the NEC for $31.)
post #100 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

My hunch was correct. Mode 1 with ISO+Joliet+UDF File System works perfectly.

Have you tried the UDF setting with DL discs? I tried it once with a Sony 500 DRu burner and the A1 won't play it, i get an error message of 'this is not a dvd discs'. thanks, steve
post #101 of 3176
Yes, I can use the UDF setting in Nero no problem with Verbatim DL DVD+R discs. My burner is a Plextor 716A.

As for authoring, I've figured out how to author pretty much any TS file that is 29.97 frames/sec. If it's 25 f/s it burns and I can play it but the video is jerky and the audio gets out of sync. Shame the A1 doesn't support 50hz playback The Xbox 360 doesn't even blink when you throw a 50hz file at it. Plays like a charm over my network. Hopefully a future firmware upgrade will support 50hz playback on the A1.

FYI, Here's the process I use for succesful authoring of 29.97 f/sec TS files to DVD-/+R and DVD+R DL:
1) Run TS file through Quickstream fix in VideoRedo to a new TS file
2) Split the new TS file in VideoRedo to mpeg program stream file(s)
3) Run the mpeg files through mpeg-vcr to new mpeg program stream files (this fixes the serious loading time issues in VS10+, at least for me)
4) After loading file in VS10+, change project settings to match movie size and audio bitrate settings, but leave "Don't convert compliant Mpeg files" checked
5) Write(Burn) to HD-DVD folder and burn to disc with Nero 7.

This process works like a charm. Real shame about 25 f/sec files not working right. I've got some good movies that are 50hz The Fifth Element being one of them. Oh well, will just keep fingers crossed for firmware upgrade or firmware hack.
post #102 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitwize View Post

Yes, I can use the UDF setting in Nero no problem with Verbatim DL DVD+R discs. My burner is a Plextor 716A.

As for authoring, I've figured out how to author pretty much any TS file that is 29.97 frames/sec. If it's 25 f/s it burns and I can play it but the video is jerky and the audio gets out of sync. Shame the A1 doesn't support 50hz playback The Xbox 360 doesn't even blink when you throw a 50hz file at it. Plays like a charm over my network. Hopefully a future firmware upgrade will support 50hz playback on the A1.

FYI, Here's the process I use for succesful authoring of 29.97 f/sec TS files to DVD-/+R and DVD+R DL:
1) Run TS file through Quickstream fix in VideoRedo to a new TS file
2) Split the new TS file in VideoRedo to mpeg program stream file(s)
3) Run the mpeg files through mpeg-vcr to new mpeg program stream files (this fixes the serious loading time issues in VS10+, at least for me)
4) After loading file in VS10+, change project settings to match movie size and audio bitrate settings, but leave "Don't convert compliant Mpeg files" checked
5) Write(Burn) to HD-DVD folder and burn to disc with Nero 7.

This process works like a charm. Real shame about 25 f/sec files not working right. I've got some good movies that are 50hz The Fifth Element being one of them. Oh well, will just keep fingers crossed for firmware upgrade or firmware hack.

Thanks for the UDF DL info, mpeg-vcr is working for you but the two programs i tried it with both ended up with audio sync problems so i'm trying to just use videoredo and vs10+. Trying different burners is important and a possible problem solver, i tried to burn a DL with Nero on a Sony 810 and it made a coaster but the same burn on a SOHW 832s played just fine, it was great to recover the editing and workup time on the project by just switching dvd units-steve
post #103 of 3176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by christefan View Post

Thanks for the UDF DL info, mpeg-vcr is working for you but the two programs i tried it with both ended up with audio sync problems so i'm trying to just use videoredo and vs10+. Trying different burners is important and a possible problem solver, i tried to burn a DL with Nero on a Sony 810 and it made a coaster but the same burn on a SOHW 832s played just fine, it was great to recover the editing and workup time on the project by just switching dvd units-steve

I've had no luck with my Sony burner, either. Ditto the Pioneer 108, 109, 110. My Mad Dog Megastor 6-in1 works fine, as do my Plextor 750s. Wonder why I have so many burners? I used to do a few hundred DVDs a semester for my students when I taught video production. I'd put all their classwork on DVDs after they turned them in, so I'd set up several burners at once on different systems to cut down on the time it took to create all the copies.

This process, by the way, is a dream for students who are serious about doing work in HD. Some of my students had bought their own HD camcorders (or rented them) as I was leaving teaching. At that point, just over a year ago, there was no inexpensive workflow that allowed them to shoot, edit and master for distribution a finished HD project. Now we can shoot on HDV, edit in realtime on a PC, and burn the finished product onto an industry standard format (HD DVD) - all at a level of affordability that I didn't think was going to be possible for some time. After all, it took a long time for similar solutions to become available for those wanting to author their own DVDs. Some of the frame rate issues must be resolved for it to be a more flexible solution, but this process gives me confidence that those issues will be addressed sooner rather than later.

I would be surprised if enterprising students haven't found this thread and are already planning projects around the process. Just as DV changed the face of video production, affordable HDV cameras and HD DVD authoring will change the face of HD video production. If there are students out there who have found this thread helpful/inspiring, I'd like to hear from you. Feel free to PM me if I can help in any way.
post #104 of 3176
Could a firmware update or next gen player eliminate the ability to recognize and playback DVD-R discs created using this process to burn HD material? Just curious if I'm being paranoid or not, but it seems to me that this "feature" could disappear in the future. Anyone know for sure? Anyone care to venture a guess?

I hope I'm wrong, but just in case, I've ordered a second HD-A1 using the OnePass discount. I have two SXRD displays, so this measure of safety was just another reason to buy a second unit. I already have a dozen SL discs burned from HDV material and plan to start using the HDV camcorder even more now that my tapes are freed up. Having this cheap authoring ability and convenient playback feature does make HD filming a lot easier. I don't have to buy anymore expensive HDV tapes either for archiving. And since others in my family have the HD-A1, I can now make cheap copies and mail them so that they can enjoy them too.
post #105 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by christefan View Post

Have you tried the UDF setting with DL discs? I tried it once with a Sony 500 DRu burner and the A1 won't play it, i get an error message of 'this is not a dvd discs'. thanks, steve

No, I haven't burned any DL discs with Roxio yet. I have burned DL discs with the Xbox compatibility enabled with Nero, and they worked.
post #106 of 3176
Got quite frustrated about the long Ulead loadtimes and did some testing.

original: 8.43GB TS MPEG2 1920x1080i

1) Ran the file through VRD's QuickStream Fix and created another TS file.
2) Opened the 'fixed' file in VRD, exported to MPEG2 PS.
3) Used Womble MPEG-VCR's MPEG System Stream Convertor. Used the VRD-exported MPEG2 PS as source to create another MPEG2 PS file.
4) Used InterCom's excellent Super MPEG2 Transcoder to squeeze the VRD-created PS to a size that would fit a Dual Layer disc.

Started Ulead VideoStudio 10's Disc Creator, set project type to HD DVD. Clicked Add File, navigated to the directory with the MPEG2 PS files. Approx. times from clicking on the filename to when the Info button became available (i.e. when Ulead had parsed the file and would accept clicking OK button.)

Womble MPEG-VCR: ~6 minutes
VRD: ~6 minutes
Super MPEG2 Transcoder: ~4 minutes (*)

(*): filesize was 0.5GB smaller than the other two, which probably explains the time difference.

In other words, using Bitwize's method of running the VRD-exported MPEG2 PS through Womble to create another, faster loading MPEG2 PS file did not work for me at all.

update: Noticed just now that the Guide on page 1 describes a different method of saving MPEG2 PS files with Womble. I'll test that next.
post #107 of 3176
Ohhhkayyy... This time I used the Save method described in the Guide on page 1. Womble created an MPEG2 PS file which was very close to the VRD one in size. It took Womble approx. 6 minutes, funnily enough. The resulting file loaded in VS10+ in a flash, exactly like Bitwize wrote.

I noticed one difference. In VS10+ Add File dialog window there's the Info button you can click once Ulead has parsed the file to its satisfaction. Clicking on the Info button, I see the following:

VRD MPEG2 PS
Video type: MPEG-2 Video
Data rate: 18000 kbps

Womble MPEG2 PS
Video type: MPEG-2 Video, Lower Field First
Data rate: Variable bit rate (Max. 18000 kbps)

Perhaps someone with more technical experience could take a look at the headers of both files to see what the actual difference is?
post #108 of 3176
I see today that MF5+ (ie. 'Plus' version) has been released.

I'm just downloading the trial now, but wondered if anyone else had tried this yet to find out what they have improved?

They mention Blue Ray direct to disc support, and also "Supports files captured from DVB-T or DVDB-S tuners, in frame sizes ranging from 352x240 to 1920x1088".

So sounds like they have added a fix for 1088?

I wonder if they now support 720p resolution?

Only bummer is, I just paid $50 to buy MF5, now they want another $50 to upgrade to the Plus version.
post #109 of 3176
Koolkiwi, thanks for the info. Those specs sound good, I'll have to take a closer look.
post #110 of 3176
I'm really hoping somebody can help here. I have quite a few streams now that will NOT load in mpegvcr. I just get the "Scan" box and eventhough it appears to be loading, nothing ever happens. I tried video redo quick stream fix but it does absolutely nothing for me. ANY help is appreaciated.
post #111 of 3176
Darrin, have you tried running the streams through MPEG2Repair (http://users.adelphia.net/~mwilczyn/mpeg2repair/)?
post #112 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Darrin, have you tried running the streams through MPEG2Repair (http://users.adelphia.net/~mwilczyn/mpeg2repair/)?

Yes. I run most (if not all) of my streams through mpeg2repair. I usually don't repair them, just more for error logging as I fing mpeg2 does more harm then good with regards to repairing.
post #113 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Koolkiwi, thanks for the info. Those specs sound good, I'll have to take a closer look.

Hmmm... I just installed the trial download, and nothing much seems to have changed from HD DVD perspective?

I still can't select the create ISO image option, and the properties still only lists 1920x1080 and 1440x1080 resolutions.

Perhaps they have only really added support for Blu-ray straight to disc?

Initial look, it doesn't appear to be much (if anything) here for HD DVD users to want to spend $50 to buy all over again!

I have to go to work now so I can't evaluate any further right now, but I'll be keen to see what others report of this upgrade?
post #114 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

Yes. I run most (if not all) of my streams through mpeg2repair. I usually don't repair them, just more for error logging as I fing mpeg2 does more harm then good with regards to repairing.

OK. Are you trying to get Womble to open Transport Streams, or Program Streams?
post #115 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

OK. Are you trying to get Womble to open Transport Streams, or Program Streams?

Transport Streams. Both Videoredo AND HDTV2mpeg will NOT create an .mpg that MF will open/load.
post #116 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

Transport Streams. Both Videoredo AND HDTV2mpeg will NOT create an .mpg that MF will open/load.

And you shouldn't even try to use H2M to create MPEG2 Program Streams, even though the option is there. Have you tried opening the TS in H2M, flipping the "set vertical to 1080" switch in the configuration menu and exporting it into another TS file for further processing by VRD or Womble?
post #117 of 3176
pteittinen, how are your results with the transcoder? How large a file have you tried? How much reduction before the quality dropoff is just too great?

I've been experimenting with re-encoding down to 720p and DL DVD size, but it just takes too long. Quality seems ok though (tried some 10-11 GB files).
post #118 of 3176
cal87, I've noticed there's no set limit for the compression percentage. Not surprisingly at all, the results depend a lot on the file you're transcoding. I've seen files that didn't look too bad after using 75% compression -- but there was also one TV show episode I did with a setting of 90 and the result looked clearly worse than the original. Generally I'm trying to avoid going below 90.

By "re-encoding down to 720p", do you mean you're giving the transcoder a 1080 file and telling it to re-encode to 720p? Surely not?
post #119 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

And you shouldn't even try to use H2M to create MPEG2 Program Streams, even though the option is there. Have you tried opening the TS in H2M, flipping the "set vertical to 1080" switch in the configuration menu and exporting it into another TS file for further processing by VRD or Womble?


I'll be damned if I can't find a "configuartion menu" in HDTV2MPEG. Where would it be located??
post #120 of 3176
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

cal87, I've noticed there's no set limit for the compression percentage. Not surprisingly at all, the results depend a lot on the file you're transcoding. I've seen files that didn't look too bad after using 75% compression -- but there was also one TV show episode I did with a setting of 90 and the result looked clearly worse than the original. Generally I'm trying to avoid going below 90.

By "re-encoding down to 720p", do you mean you're giving the transcoder a 1080 file and telling it to re-encode to 720p? Surely not?

I am experimenting with encoders - TMPGEnc and ProCoder. And yes, I am going from 1080 to 720, also straight 1080 to 1080 and just reducing size. Just trying to see what kind of results I get. We're talking >24 hrs to do the job, so I don't have much to compare yet.

Probably a big waste of time. I'll probably stick to my original no re-encoding and using multiple DVD-5s - they're faster to burn anyways.

Just trying to see if this is an equivalent scenario to DVDShrink vs DVDRebuilder/CCE scenarios for SD DVDs.
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