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FYI: New URC policy on MX series....no updates... - Page 3  

post #61 of 508
8/5/06 at 10:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitz
are you kidding me??? step outside of your castle in the sky and join the real world. Last time I checked this is a free country...
You sir are correct. This is a free country. URC enjoys the same freedoms as you and I. If they want to restrict access to their products and services, as say you, "this is a free country" and they can do as they wish. Like it, or leave it, thats how it is. Thats how it always has been, and thats how it always will be.

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post #62 of 508
8/5/06 at 10:37pm
I'm amazed everybody is getting so worked up over this. If they didn't give you software return it. Then vote with your dollars by using the refunded money to buy another brand.

It's the only way UMC will listen.
post #63 of 508
8/6/06 at 7:54am
"You sir are correct. This is a free country. URC enjoys the same freedoms as you and I. If they want to restrict access to their products and services, as say you, "this is a free country" and they can do as they wish. Like it, or leave it, thats how it is. Thats how it always has been, and thats how it always will be."

You sir,are also correct.We end users also have that right .With our wallets,and our recommendations,we will show URC our thoughts on their new policy.
post #64 of 508
8/6/06 at 8:29am
Good. Go buy a Harmony. :) I am sure URC wont miss you. And I am sure it will be just as good.
post #65 of 508
8/6/06 at 8:32am
"Good. Go buy a Harmony. I am sure URC wont miss you. And I am sure it will be just as good."

They may not miss me,but they will miss the thousands like me.
post #66 of 508
8/6/06 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaine
This statement simply isn't true for the majority of people who post here. I've certainly never asked for assistance or support from a dealer as I don't need it. I'm perfectly capable of setting up these devices myself.


And what exactly do you do for us? The majority of users on this board set these devices up themselves. Therefore, you provide no value to us whatsoever, as your services are never utilized. Yet you act like people are taking money out of your pocket simply because they choose not to pay an unhealthy premium for support services they'll never need or use.

Bottom line, your train of thought here is heavily flawed.

Slain,

Maybe you, as well as many others who frequent AVS, are perfectly capable of doing everything yourself and you do not require the help of others or the help of professionals?

I wish to add some clarification to my previous statements which are not directed at the exceptional DIY'ers found here at AVS:

Some of the members found here at AVS are a different breed, versus the typical DIY'er. Many AVS members tend to be more self sufficient and come to AVS to find answers to problems. Let me be very clear, AVS'ers are the exception to the rule when it comes to DIY'ers.

As a high end dealer and custom install firm, we find that the typical DIY'er wastes our time, requires us to exhaustively demo numerous items, tries to pick our brains for free advice and then buys online from a cut rate web seller. That's why we don't want to represent product lines which turn up on the web. For one, we are a Halcro dealer. How many times have you seen new Halcro available online? Probably never.


"And what exactly do you do for us? The majority of users on this board set these devices up themselves. Therefore, you provide no value to us whatsoever, as your services are never utilized. Yet you act like people are taking money out of your pocket simply because they choose not to pay an unhealthy premium for support services they'll never need or use."

Why don't you contract my company to do work for you and you'll see what we'll do for you.

After the sale care is perhaps more important than simply making the sale and getting the install done properly and on time. When one of our customers screws up a setting on their projector or surround processor in the middle of a movie, we are always available to help. At all times we have a spreadsheet of each clients settings in our lap tops. See if your favorite online discounter is there for you at 11pm on a Sunday?

Many AVS members are able to solve these problems on their own. But I guarantee you the majority of people require hours and hours of hand holding. We can't provide that level of service to people who want to buy online. We practically live with you after we install your system and that is costly to us. That's why we will not work with potential customers who try to circumvent us.
post #67 of 508
8/6/06 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Tu
Why are you not charging for the after sale care if they didn't buy from you, or if they did & didn't pay for programming? If you are providing valuable expertise & time, charge for it. Where you can get fair profit is by charging for programming & for consulting time.

I don't understand this complaining about having to compete with unauth dealers on hardware price. Say you think fair price & profit for you on a particular remote + programming is $500. Now, maybe you quote $350 for remote + $150 for programming. If customers are complaining "hey I can get remote for $250 on ebay, why should I pay $100 extra for remote from you?", then just change your quote to: "remote, $250, programming $250". Or "remote, $350, programming $250, -$100 discount on programming for getting remote from me". You get same amount of money, for customer that can't or doesn't want to program remote, what are they going to do but shrug their shoulders & pay you what you want? If you say you can't do that because some other competitor is willing to program the remote for less, then that just means you are trying to charge more than what the free market has determined is fair, tough.

For the DIY customer who doesn't need programming, nor any support, if you are just taking down a computer web order, grabbing a box, stuffing it into a shipping box, slapping the UPS label on it, why should your "fair profit" be substantially higher than the unauthorized web retailer doing exactly the same thing? You aren't really providing any benefit here other than the warranty. (Companies not honoring warranties here is bogus too from the consumer point of view, they made profit selling the product, it's a way to generate profits dumping to grey market while dodging support costs, win-win for them).

This "authorized dealer" & MAP programs are anti-competitive practices that hurt the consumer, just like the MAP of music CD companies that they were sued for and lost on anti-trust grounds. URC can play whatever games they want to try to keep prices high, but don't expect consumers to applaud them for it. They can get away charging more because they have a better product than the competition, currently, but only to a certain extent. At some price point some large segment of the market will turn to a competitor.

The following quote from Audiophiliac reflects my sentiments exactly.

"The idea in the beginning was that the "Custom Professional" line of remotes would only be sold through CIs who would install and program them. The "Consumer" line was intended for the over the counter retail sales where the customer would be on his/her own for programming.

Obviously, that vision got lost somewhere along the way and people have been able to buy the "Custom" remotes anywhere and luckily, URC was nice enough to have the software freely available to those people. Something they didn't HAVE to make available, but did anyway."


The Custom line should not be available directly to consumers. Web discounters have hurt the line by hurting the dealers. For those who wish to program their own remote, that's what the consumer products are for.

In no way am I complaining. I don't care where you buy from. In the end, if it turns out the DIY'er is incapable of doing things himself, he's screwed.

When we take on a job, our clients are our partners and we simply will not work with anyone who tries to circumvent us.
post #68 of 508
8/6/06 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyNow^
It's very obvious from your posts that you are a URC lacky........
Actually, aside from the MX-850's, we do very little with URC because of their past sales policies.
post #69 of 508
8/6/06 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodynamics
Why don't you contract my company to do work for you and you'll see what we'll do for you.
Because I don't need to. I'm perfectly capable of doing the work myself, like most other AVS readers, as I explained earlier. Yet URC and their authorized dealers seem to think I should pay for this support regardless, by way of the exorbitant MSRP.

I have no reason to doubt that your company provides great service to your customers. However I don't think I should have to pay a premium for service I'll never use.

In summary, I don't have a problem with dealers charging extra money for these items to offset the cost of the support services they provide. I do have an issue with URC no longer providing the required software needed to operate their own products to people who don't go this route. I didn't buy my remote from the back of a van in some alleyway, I bought it from a legitimate retailer, who just doesn't happen to be recognised by URC as an authorized dealer. How URC thinks it's a good idea to shun people who've bought these remotes through Best Buy, Buy.com, Amazon.com, etc is beyond me. The negative feedback on Amazon.com alone could cause them serious PR problems.

Time will tell if this turns out to be a costly mistake for URC or not. Given their current attitude to customer support, I hope it does.
post #70 of 508
8/6/06 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaine
I didn't buy my remote from the back of a van in some alleyway, I bought it from a legitimate retailer, who just doesn't happen to be recognised by URC as an authorized dealer.
So if they are a legitimate retailer but not recognised by URC how are they an Authorized dealer??

If they are on the up and up call them for the software, if they cant provide it well I guess it wasnt a legit retailer
post #71 of 508
8/6/06 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaine
Because I don't need to. I'm perfectly capable of doing the work myself, like most other AVS readers, as I explained earlier. Yet URC and their authorized dealers seem to think I should pay for this support regardless, by way of the exorbitant MSRP.

I have no reason to doubt that your company provides great service to your customers. However I don't think I should have to pay a premium for service I'll never use.

In summary, I don't have a problem with dealers charging extra money for these items to offset the cost of the support services they provide. I do have an issue with URC no longer providing the required software needed to operate their own products to people who don't go this route. I didn't buy my remote from the back of a van in some alleyway, I bought it from a legitimate retailer, who just doesn't happen to be recognised by URC as an authorized dealer. How URC thinks it's a good idea to shun people who've bought these remotes through Best Buy, Buy.com, Amazon.com, etc is beyond me. The negative feedback on Amazon.com alone could cause them serious PR problems.

Time will tell if this turns out to be a costly mistake for URC or not. Given their current attitude to customer support, I hope it does.
Why do you think you deserve to get the service and support for free? Like I mentioned before, if you want to program the thing yourself, more power to you. Save the several hundred dollars by not paying a programmer, and buy your remote at an authorized dealer. But this somehow isn't enough for some....they want to have their cake and eat it too....they want a deep discount on the remote AND free software and service/support. Well, in the past, you were being done an over-generous service by URC allowing you to do such. And now that they are no longer offering that service, you feel you should still be entitled to it.

The way I see it, URC did something that RTI, Nevo, Crestron, AMX, among others, would never think of doing. They offered the same software that CIs use to their end users free of charge. They didnt have to.....and maybe they should never have made the software available to the public in the first place. But they were nice enough to for a long time...
post #72 of 508
8/6/06 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophiliac
Good. Go buy a Harmony. :) I am sure URC wont miss you. And I am sure it will be just as good.
Oh yeah that’s the spirit ... would you like to further alienate your enthusiast market which drives word of mouth just keep running that mouth.
post #73 of 508
8/6/06 at 10:54am
Is there any legal basis for URC having to provide end user assistance/support/warranty if URC provides materials direct to the end user? If so, I can see URC pulling publicly available material so they can take the "we don't deal with end users" policy. But otherwise, I can't see what URC gets from such a move. URC could already say "we don't deal with end users, talk to your dealer if you have a problem" perspective, yet still provide updates to the owning community. It's hardly a shock that a manufacturer doesn't want to deal with end user support. That's a lot of cost for a group that doesn't generate additional direct revenue.

I have to assume the dealers said they were or would be dropping URC due to lack of revenue from the parts sales. Still, I assume no dealer is going to program a URC as part of the cost of the remote. That's all going to be on top as labor, so what do the dealers care. It still makes little sense to me about why URC finds they need to change, or what exactly they expect to gain from the change. For the unaffected, they are unaffected. For the affected, they are now simply lost sales.
post #74 of 508
8/6/06 at 5:01pm
If they don't want consumers, lets help them out, I just put in my one star review in Amazon warning about their no consumer support policy. There are only three reviews now including mine

Having a lot of reviews about the lack of support should have a significant impact on their sales since a lot of people probably check Amazon for the ratings even if they buy somewhere else.

I made the mistake of not spending enough time on AVS and just got my useless 850 a few days ago. It looked like such a good design, it never occurred to me that I was dealing with such a hostile company
post #75 of 508
8/6/06 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wire Monkey
So if they are a legitimate retailer but not recognised by URC how are they an Authorized dealer??

If they are on the up and up call them for the software, if they cant provide it well I guess it wasnt a legit retailer
Re-read my post again. I didn't say they were an authorized dealer.
post #76 of 508
8/6/06 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophiliac
Why do you think you deserve to get the service and support for free? Like I mentioned before, if you want to program the thing yourself, more power to you. Save the several hundred dollars by not paying a programmer, and buy your remote at an authorized dealer. But this somehow isn't enough for some....they want to have their cake and eat it too....they want a deep discount on the remote AND free software and service/support. Well, in the past, you were being done an over-generous service by URC allowing you to do such. And now that they are no longer offering that service, you feel you should still be entitled to it.

The way I see it, URC did something that RTI, Nevo, Crestron, AMX, among others, would never think of doing. They offered the same software that CIs use to their end users free of charge. They didnt have to.....and maybe they should never have made the software available to the public in the first place. But they were nice enough to for a long time...
You're like a broken record with this "support" mantra. Let me state again, for the third time, that I have no intention of ever going to an authorized dealer or URC for service/support. The issue I and everyone else has with this move is that URC is preventing new owners of URC remotes from even using what they've just purchased, by preventing them from downloading the programming software.

Personally, I'm all set for now with the version of the software that I own. But people who unwittingly purchase URC remotes from the stores I mentioned earlier will have no choice but to return these remotes because they simply won't be able to use them. And that's a shame all round.
post #77 of 508
8/6/06 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaine
You're like a broken record with this "support" mantra. Let me state again, for the third time, that I have no intention of ever going to an authorized dealer or URC for service/support. The issue I and everyone else has with this move is that URC is preventing new owners of URC remotes from even using what they've just purchased, by preventing them from downloading the programming software.

Personally, I'm all set for now with the version of the software that I own. But people who unwittingly purchase URC remotes from the stores I mentioned earlier will have no choice but to return these remotes because they simply won't be able to use them. And that's a shame all round.
Oh great! I just bought an MX850 off eBay! What is wrong with letting people purchase things used that they wouldn't normally be able to afford?!!

I am beyond pissed off right now!

I am never buying Sony again and URC just got added to the list! I don't care if I am only one person, we can't let these companies get away with stuff like this!!
post #78 of 508
8/6/06 at 10:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaine
I bought it from a legitimate retailer, who just doesn't happen to be recognised by URC as an authorized dealer.
Is what you posted


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wire Monkey
So if they are a legitimate retailer but not recognised by URC how are they an Authorized dealer??

If they are on the up and up call them for the software, if they cant provide it well I guess it wasnt a legit retailer
Is what I posted..You did say they were not recognized as an Authorized Dealer

I dont care either way I dont sell URC nor do I own any
post #79 of 508
8/7/06 at 12:35am
Is this suppose to stop you from doing a live update? I just did a live update for my 950 that I purchased three weeks ago. I know I got new IR codes because I checked to see if it installed IR codes for my Hd-DVD player and it did.
post #80 of 508
8/7/06 at 5:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigslue
Is this suppose to stop you from doing a live update? I just did a live update for my 950 that I purchased three weeks ago. I know I got new IR codes because I checked to see if it installed IR codes for my Hd-DVD player and it did.
Try and perform another live update. It probably won't let you.
post #81 of 508
8/7/06 at 8:14am
Just today I went to download the MX-Editor and they have removed the link from their site.

Not providing media for required software and then removing the download links is the lowest of the low. Not providing updates is one thing, but blocking use of an already purchased product is horrible.

Right now google's cache still works. Better get it while you can.

http://www.universalremote.com/produ...p_1.12.263.exe
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:T...s&ct=clnk&cd=1
post #82 of 508
8/7/06 at 9:11am
Live Updates for IR codes aren't a huge deal if you have your original remotes, but not offering the software to end users is a bad move. It is sad that people are going to have to use Torrents to get the software like it is warez or mp3s. I guess techincally it is now in the 'warez' category.

I purchased my MX700 off of ebay. Six months later the d-pad 'enter' click stopped working. I was prepared to get it fixed (~$35 from URC) but the person I bought it off of had it fixed for me by URC. It turns out they were an authorized dealer selling on Ebay. They have no control over their distribution chain and this is a sad way to attempt to 'fix' their issues.
post #83 of 508
8/7/06 at 10:10am
I purchased 3 MX-850's a couple of weeks ago. I would have made a different choice had I known this would happen.

For current "unauthorized" owners, the solution to future updates is clear. Find an authorized dealer with a good return policy, buy a new remote, get the latest software, update your old remote, then return the new remote.

What a poor decision by URC.
post #84 of 508
8/7/06 at 10:24am
Don't forget that besides new IR codes, the Live Update feature also allows for updates to the remotes firmware. URC has said they were going to enable "variables" for the TX-1000 and other remotes that currently don't have it, for example.
post #85 of 508
8/7/06 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redhook
Just today I went to download the MX-Editor and they have removed the link from their site.

Not providing media for required software and then removing the download links is the lowest of the low. Not providing updates is one thing, but blocking use of an already purchased product is horrible.

Right now google's cache still works. Better get it while you can.

http://www.universalremote.com/produ...p_1.12.263.exe
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:T...s&ct=clnk&cd=1

All Gone!!
post #86 of 508
8/7/06 at 1:08pm
Eric,

I would like your thoughts on why the following would not work.

IF URC REALLY WANTED TO HELP THE CI's GET MORE BUSINESS, they would make the remotes even more available so more people would have them, keep the software available on their site, only offer support to CI's or on a pay per use basis, and then have a more robust area to put customers in contact with CI's to help them.

I don't see how this would not be great for everyone, especially URC.
post #87 of 508
8/7/06 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaine
This statement simply isn't true for the majority of people who post here. I've certainly never asked for assistance or support from a dealer as I don't need it. I'm perfectly capable of setting up these devices myself.
Many DIYers absolutely do pick CI brains about how to program remotes. But who cares, really? As long as they aren't bothering me during work hours, I'm usually happy to help (as are many CIs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaine
And what exactly do you do for us? The majority of users on this board set these devices up themselves. Therefore, you provide no value to us whatsoever, as your services are never utilized. Yet you act like people are taking money out of your pocket simply because they choose not to pay an unhealthy premium for support services they'll never need or use.

Bottom line, your train of thought here is heavily flawed.
One thing I will agree with here are that DIYers do not take business away from CI companies.
post #88 of 508
8/7/06 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendrid
Live Updates for IR codes aren't a huge deal if you have your original remotes, but not offering the software to end users is a bad move. It is sad that people are going to have to use Torrents to get the software like it is warez or mp3s. I guess techincally it is now in the 'warez' category.

I purchased my MX700 off of ebay. Six months later the d-pad 'enter' click stopped working. I was prepared to get it fixed (~$35 from URC) but the person I bought it off of had it fixed for me by URC. It turns out they were an authorized dealer selling on Ebay. They have no control over their distribution chain and this is a sad way to attempt to 'fix' their issues.

Well, the truth of the matter is that there should never be any such thing as an "unauthorized" dealer. If URC sold the remote to whomever business to resale, then it was an "authorized" transaction. The only unauthorized one that I can think of, is when it is stolen merchandise.

What I think is really happening in this case, as well as others, is that authorized dealers are finding ways to sell more items (called more profit through volume) by selling at prices like you find on *bay. That said, what's to stop the *bay sellers from now including a copy of the latest software with each remote that they sell?

The point is this. The consumer creates the demand, and the consumer rules the market. Not the manufacturer. There's no patent on universal programmable remotes. Sure, there is a patent on the MX-850, etc, but in general a better remote can be made. It has been, by URC, and can be by other companies as well - probably by companies who don't have idiot policies with crappy policies towards consumers.

edit add:

I do not knock companies who sell a service to go along with a product - for example programming the remotes, installing HT equipment, etc. I think it is great and part of understanding a niche market that has a small demand. I think it is narrow-minded to believe that most customers who purchase HT equipment actually NEED someone to install it for them. I would venture to bet that the lion's share of HT equipment sold is installed by the consumer, and the consumer is quite happy with it. Will I concede that a professional installer could probably do a better job? Hell yes, almost without fail. There are a lot of folks though that could do a better job than most so called pro's.

I'm all for dealers charging a fair price for their time to set up some programming or whatever. They deserve it. But don't build this price into a device that the consumer is forced to absorb, even when not necessary.

About the only service that I would pay for, would be the ISF calibration of my viewing monitor or projector.
post #89 of 508
8/7/06 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ten 99
Well, the truth of the matter is that there should never be any such thing as an "unauthorized" dealer. If URC sold the remote to whomever business to resale, then it was an "authorized" transaction. The only unauthorized one that I can think of, is when it is stolen merchandise.

I'm all for dealers charging a fair price for their time to set up some programming or whatever. They deserve it. But don't build this price into a device that the consumer is forced to absorb, even when not necessary.
Well said.
post #90 of 508
8/7/06 at 8:18pm
I have no doubt that there will be some interesting legal implications if you start including software illegally with the remotes, but what can they do about bit torrent and p2p share sites. Nothing.

That's what's great about the internet. You really don't have to pay for everything.
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