AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Official SHARP 37D90U thread!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official SHARP 37D90U thread! - Page 11

post #301 of 1314
10/3/06 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

I know what you are saying, however, the only cable plugged into the monitor is a DVI cable in digital mode. The resolution is definitely 1920x1080p, and I can plug the same cable into another 1920x1200 lcd monitor and it looks fine. The black & white pixels are 100% accurate, just the color near a transition.

To reiterate - I am not using analog anything, it is all a digital signal. No component cables, no svhs cables, no composite cables.

One other point of interest - if I slide the image sideways, the color artifacting slides pixel for pixel as well, it does not chunk up at odd/even pixels. At first I thought about some compression schemes break chroma information down based on absolute pixel position, but that is not what is happening here.

Yeah, I know what you're using, I just wanted to say what it looked like, but don't forget your digital signals have to be converted to the displayed RGB somewhere in the set. I notice there's a bit of vertical misalignment as well. The wierd thing is that black and white is fine which means RGB timing must be OK. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #302 of 1314
10/3/06 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

I know what you are saying, however, the only cable plugged into the monitor is a DVI cable in digital mode. The resolution is definitely 1920x1080p, and I can plug the same cable into another 1920x1200 lcd monitor and it looks fine. The black & white pixels are 100% accurate, just the color near a transition.

To reiterate - I am not using analog anything, it is all a digital signal. No component cables, no svhs cables, no composite cables.

One other point of interest - if I slide the image sideways, the color artifacting slides pixel for pixel as well, it does not chunk up at odd/even pixels. At first I thought about some compression schemes break chroma information down based on absolute pixel position, but that is not what is happening here.

how does this LCD Sync 1080p look on your TV --- > http://www.pbase.com/jackcnd/1080p_tests
Reply
Reply
post #303 of 1314
10/3/06 at 1:17pm
vandl, sounds like you are seeing a similar problem to what I have. I have enough posts now to put in links. Take a look at these:

http://home.woh.rr.com/bdkphoto/P8282131.JPG
http://home.woh.rr.com/bdkphoto/hirespaint.JPG
http://home.woh.rr.com/bdkphoto/visitedunvis19.PNG

I posted in this thread previously but no one mentioned seeing something similar. I get problems with certain combinations of red and green and backgrounds. I get ghosting to the left (pink or cyan fuzz) and/or black pixels to the right of the colored pixels. Black and white checkerboard looks sharp and fine, video looks fine. I have been trying to work with Sharp and the repair place for over a month now. The good news is your not alone in having a problem this TV should not have. The bad news is that if you aren't alone, it may not be something that can't be fixed. I hope I am wrong, I hope they can still fix my set, but I am holding less and less hope as days go by.
Reply
Reply
post #304 of 1314
10/3/06 at 1:59pm
Anyone try the settings that I posed from my ISF calibration yet? Wondering what you think. Not sure if I actually like them, seems much dimmer now.
Reply
Reply
post #305 of 1314
10/3/06 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohi View Post

how does this LCD Sync 1080p look on your TV --- > 1080p_tests

That sync image renders perfect -- any black and white image works perfectly. Also, all the color ramps on that page render prefect as well, as they do not have any harsh color transitions horizontally.

The telltale sign of this problem is that green text on a white background has a cyan halo around it, or that read text on a white background looks dirty on the edges (black smears), or pretty much anything red is not going to have a clean edge. I did turn off text smoothing. Cleartype was actually making this problem worse, as it adds more color transitions in. And yes, I used the cleartype optimizer from Microsoft, no difference.

I'm starting to get annoyed at web sites with colored text now, since black and white are the only colors that render crisp right now.

I'm glad at least one other person can confirm this problem. I hope cmonster32 figures something out.

It boils down to this: The monitor is not outputting the DVI signal directly, it is altering it. Does it have to? Can it just have a direct mode that dumps the dvi rgb pixels directly to the pixels fo the device with no brightness/sharpness/tint/noise reduction/color temp processing?

I noticed that when I had the sharpness set to + 2 or something (factory defaults), it really mangled the pixels. This tells me that the signal is going through some destructive processing even when it is in dot per dot direct pc mode. I am conjecturing that this processing is what is distorting the signal.

Do I regret buying this monitor. Not really. It cost so much less than the samsung 323t I got a few years back, and it larger, has better blacks, and the speakers sound good. It would make a great TV if that is what I end up using it for. But I am a pixel freak, and it is unfortunate that the pixels can't just draw what I tell them to.

My other choice was a westinghouse whatever -- some people said they had good luck using that as a lcd monitor. But maybe it has the same problem? I don't know. As I said before, I tried to find any explanation of this problem using internet searches and I came up with nothing. I also cannot find any place that reviews different monitors accurately so I know which one to order. (Sort of like a steve's digicams for lcd panels)
Reply
Reply
post #306 of 1314
10/3/06 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

That sync image renders perfect -- any black and white image works perfectly. Also, all the color ramps on that page render prefect as well, as they do not have any harsh color transitions horizontally.

The telltale sign of this problem is that green text on a white background has a cyan halo around it, or that read text on a white background looks dirty on the edges (black smears), or pretty much anything red is not going to have a clean edge. I did turn off text smoothing. Cleartype was actually making this problem worse, as it adds more color transitions in. And yes, I used the cleartype optimizer from Microsoft, no difference.

I'm starting to get annoyed at web sites with colored text now, since black and white are the only colors that render crisp right now.

I'm glad at least one other person can confirm this problem. I hope cmonster32 figures something out.

It boils down to this: The monitor is not outputting the DVI signal directly, it is altering it. Does it have to? Can it just have a direct mode that dumps the dvi rgb pixels directly to the pixels fo the device with no brightness/sharpness/tint/noise reduction/color temp processing?

I noticed that when I had the sharpness set to + 2 or something (factory defaults), it really mangled the pixels. This tells me that the signal is going through some destructive processing even when it is in dot per dot direct pc mode. I am conjecturing that this processing is what is distorting the signal.

Do I regret buying this monitor. Not really. It cost so much less than the samsung 323t I got a few years back, and it larger, has better blacks, and the speakers sound good. It would make a great TV if that is what I end up using it for. But I am a pixel freak, and it is unfortunate that the pixels can't just draw what I tell them to.

My other choice was a westinghouse whatever -- some people said they had good luck using that as a lcd monitor. But maybe it has the same problem? I don't know. As I said before, I tried to find any explanation of this problem using internet searches and I came up with nothing. I also cannot find any place that reviews different monitors accurately so I know which one to order. (Sort of like a steve's digicams for lcd panels)

DVI connection via HTPC here too but so far, while browsing the internet that issue was not noticed... will check again more closely to see if that specific issue appears...
Reply
Reply
post #307 of 1314
10/3/06 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

That sync image renders perfect -- any black and white image works perfectly. Also, all the color ramps on that page render prefect as well, as they do not have any harsh color transitions horizontally.

Took a look at this as well. No problems were displayed from those tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

The telltale sign of this problem is that green text on a white background has a cyan halo around it, or that read text on a white background looks dirty on the edges (black smears), or pretty much anything red is not going to have a clean edge. I did turn off text smoothing. Cleartype was actually making this problem worse, as it adds more color transitions in. And yes, I used the cleartype optimizer from Microsoft, no difference.

I turned off that cleartext stuff with my previous display (which didn't have any issues), I didn't like the extra color effects it was throwing on the display. Black and white text was now longer black and white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

I'm glad at least one other person can confirm this problem. I hope cmonster32 figures something out.

I will keep you posted on whether they finally fix my set. The repair guy has replaced two of the boards inside. Sharp wanted him to run a signal generator on it. The repair folks didn't see how that was going to get me a fixed TV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

It boils down to this: The monitor is not outputting the DVI signal directly, it is altering it. Does it have to? Can it just have a direct mode that dumps the dvi rgb pixels directly to the pixels fo the device with no brightness/sharpness/tint/noise reduction/color temp processing?

If you go to other resolutions from your computer, does it fill the screen even when it is in dot by dot mode? Mine claims it is recieving a 1080P signal, no matter what resolution I send over the DVI and always scales it to fill the screen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

I noticed that when I had the sharpness set to + 2 or something (factory defaults), it really mangled the pixels. This tells me that the signal is going through some destructive processing even when it is in dot per dot direct pc mode. I am conjecturing that this processing is what is distorting the signal.

Yes learned with previous set. Turn sharpness off or to neutral with a digital input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

Do I regret buying this monitor. Not really. It cost so much less than the samsung 323t I got a few years back, and it larger, has better blacks, and the speakers sound good. It would make a great TV if that is what I end up using it for. But I am a pixel freak, and it is unfortunate that the pixels can't just draw what I tell them to.

Couldn't agree more. If I didn't have a computer hooked to it I never would have seen the problem. But since this is my computer display, I expect it to work correctly. If all I wanted was an excelent video display, I could have gone with a less expensive brand. Besides for my viewing distance when watching movies I could have stayed with a 720P display.


Another problem I have had, is that the backlight brightness control doesn't always work. This thing does not need to be set to +16, ever! When the backlight control isn't working, the power supply tends to make a very high pitched squeal.
Reply
Reply
post #308 of 1314
10/3/06 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohi View Post

DVI connection via HTPC here too but so far, while browsing the internet that issue was not noticed... will check again more closely to see if that specific issue appears...


An easy way to see if it does it, is bring up MS paint. Select the red color, and the brush. Select the larger brush size. Paint down the screen on the canvas. If you have this problem, you will see (probably) a column of black pixels to the right of the red brush stroke. On mine if I have a single pixel wide vertical red line, on a white background, I get a column that is pink, and a column that is lack.
Reply
Reply
post #309 of 1314
10/3/06 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonster32 View Post

An easy way to see if it does it, is bring up MS paint. Select the red color, and the brush. Select the larger brush size. Paint down the screen on the canvas. If you have this problem, you will see (probably) a column of black pixels to the right of the red brush stroke. On mine if I have a single pixel wide vertical red line, on a white background, I get a column that is pink, and a column that is lack.

I made a test image that really shows off the problem:
66.92.0.87/lcdtest.png

I notice that the bleeding also happens vertically, just not as much. I see two pink pixels to the left of the red line, and one black one where the line should be, and one pink one to the right of that.

I made single pixel RGB circles on white and black backgrounds. Near the top and bottom of the circle, I see one extra pink pixel, and where the red should be a see a dark, almost black red. The screen captures don't really do it all justice, the pink halo to the left fo the red doesn't show up on a cheap webcam. Here are some captures of what my sharp looks like on that test image, and what a normal dell computer monitor looks like

66.92.0.87/SharpTest1.jpg
66.92.0.87/SharpTest2.jpg
66.92.0.87/SharpTest3.jpg
66.92.0.87/SharpTest4.jpg

66.92.0.87/DellTest1.jpg
66.92.0.87/DellTest2.jpg
66.92.0.87/DellTest3.jpg

(I still cannot post images or real links yet -- 'doh )
Reply
Reply
post #310 of 1314
10/3/06 at 5:17pm
GDMeyer: I know some are incompatible, but this one seems to be working correctly, so not sure what is going on. I tried to come up with a similar test here at work and will be able to test it tomorrow both using a mac and the bridge and a normal linux machine with a standard serial portl.

vandl: I'm connecting my powerbook to my display this evening so I'll put up your test image and let you know what happens.
Reply
Reply
post #311 of 1314
10/3/06 at 5:17pm
vandl: Yes, from your description, mine does the same thing
Reply
Reply
post #312 of 1314
10/3/06 at 8:22pm
vandl: Just tested ... my set looks *exactly* like your images. I'm noticing that the text on this display, strangely, doesn't seem to be quite as sharp as on my 45GD7U. I'll test more tomorrow at work.

In other news I got Virtual D-VHS to work. At first I couldn't initiate a record from the app, but once I made the connection from the set (pushing the i.link button) it started working. Unfortunately, the app lists itself as a D-VHS (which is what you should expect given the name), so it won't let you choose the program, you can only do one at a time. Does AV-HDD software exist?
Reply
Reply
post #313 of 1314
10/3/06 at 9:34pm
Thread Starter 
mikecoscia - so your DVI setting is for your 360?
How did the tech calibrate the 360 - what games etc?

thanks!
Reply
Reply
post #314 of 1314
10/3/06 at 10:36pm
I know this is a long shot, but is it possible that you have a sub-standard DVI cable? I'm wondering if you are getting some kind of EM interference over the cable run.

--Mark
Reply
Reply
post #315 of 1314
10/4/06 at 3:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMark View Post

I know this is a long shot, but is it possible that you have a sub-standard DVI cable? I'm wondering if you are getting some kind of EM interference over the cable run.

--Mark

I don't know about what all the others have tested, but I get this "color" problem running at all the resolutions supported by the TV. At lower resolutions, which a monitor I had and my 37G4U supported, I still have the problem with this TV. The other display's did not have this issue, and after I saw the problem on this set, I hooked the computer back up to the monitor, and the G4U and verified they didn't show this problem. I used the same computer, video card, and DVI->DVI cable in all the testing. When I first saw it at full resolution, I thought it might be a cable quality issue too. But not after I tested.
Reply
Reply
post #316 of 1314
10/4/06 at 4:12am
I decided to replace all 3 of my TVs and picked this one up for my 3yr old's playroom. Couldn't believe how cheap it was, especially given that I had paid the same price for a 32" XBR2 in the same order. I was wary of the quality given the low price, but after spending some time with the set today, I'm definitely happy with the purchase. Perfect size and great picture really make this one of my best audio/video value purchases. It also helped me rethink my reluctance to go LCD to replace my PRO1130HD. The new Sharps and Sonys will defintely get a look from me, but the PRO FHD-1 and new 65" Panny are still the frontrunners.
Reply
Reply
post #317 of 1314
10/4/06 at 5:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonster32 View Post

I don't know about what all the others have tested, but I get this "color" problem running at all the resolutions supported by the TV. At lower resolutions, which a monitor I had and my 37G4U supported, I still have the problem with this TV. The other display's did not have this issue, and after I saw the problem on this set, I hooked the computer back up to the monitor, and the G4U and verified they didn't show this problem. I used the same computer, video card, and DVI->DVI cable in all the testing. When I first saw it at full resolution, I thought it might be a cable quality issue too. But not after I tested.

Has anyone checked if this problem also shows up using the HDTV component inputs?
Reply
Reply
post #318 of 1314
10/4/06 at 5:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonster32 View Post

An easy way to see if it does it, is bring up MS paint. Select the red color, and the brush. Select the larger brush size. Paint down the screen on the canvas. If you have this problem, you will see (probably) a column of black pixels to the right of the red brush stroke. On mine if I have a single pixel wide vertical red line, on a white background, I get a column that is pink, and a column that is lack.

This definitely appears to be a timing problem between chrominance and luminance signals, something that should not occur in three color systems. If the pink bar and the black bar were coincident, I believe you would get the proper red color.
Reply
Reply
post #319 of 1314
10/4/06 at 6:42am
Does anyone know where I can find out what the dimensions of the box itself are?
Reply
Reply
post #320 of 1314
10/4/06 at 7:39am
And is the frame metal or plastic?
Reply
Reply
post #321 of 1314
10/4/06 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysb View Post

This definitely appears to be a timing problem between chrominance and luminance signals, something that should not occur in three color systems. If the pink bar and the black bar were coincident, I believe you would get the proper red color.

Yes, it does appear that the luma and chroma are not aligned. It may be interesting to see if either of the HDMI inputs would do better with the DVI output from the PC. All that is needed is a DVI->HDMI cable, time and interest.

I would love to try it myself, but I am still shopping. The Sharp is at the top of my list right now.
Reply
Reply
post #322 of 1314
10/4/06 at 9:40am
LeRoyK: I'm pretty sure I have an DVI->HDMI adapter I can try this evening. I'm also testing the same test image on a 45GD7U (1080i) sometime later today and I'll provide the results.

If we determine it is something specific with the D90U, can we inform Sharp and hope for some kind of firmware patch? Is this a hardware issue that is unfixable, or maybe something that can be tweaked with software?
Reply
Reply
post #323 of 1314
10/4/06 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcarr316 View Post

LeRoyK: I'm pretty sure I have an DVI->HDMI adapter I can try this evening. I'm also testing the same test image on a 45GD7U (1080i) sometime later today and I'll provide the results.

If we determine it is something specific with the D90U, can we inform Sharp and hope for some kind of firmware patch? Is this a hardware issue that is unfixable, or maybe something that can be tweaked with software?

This questions can only be answered after it is determined what is causing the problem. As I said, this shouldn't happen in a true three color system. It almost appears that Sharp is creating luma and chroma signals in their processing and not maintaining proper timing. It might be in a frame store since there appears to be some vertical displacement between chroma and luma as well.
Reply
Reply
post #324 of 1314
10/4/06 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcarr316 View Post

LeRoyK: I'm pretty sure I have an DVI->HDMI adapter I can try this evening. I'm also testing the same test image on a 45GD7U (1080i) sometime later today and I'll provide the results.

If we determine it is something specific with the D90U, can we inform Sharp and hope for some kind of firmware patch? Is this a hardware issue that is unfixable, or maybe something that can be tweaked with software?

Have you completely turned off ALL picture *enhancement* features? I don't own a sharp but in my previous test of LCDs turning off absolutely ALL of those adjustments was the only way to get a proper picture from a PC.
Reply
Reply
post #325 of 1314
10/4/06 at 10:44am
vandl: Okay, just tested on my 45GD7U and the test image you provided renders perfectly. Now I'm a bit upset ... if it happens with both of our D90Us then it is likely a larger problem.

I'm using a Mac and I think you're using a PC, so there are sure to be differences there, but there are a couple things I've noticed.

* on my D90U text seems to be a little "crushed" ... text just isn't razor sharp like on my GD7U.
* in the display options (again, on the mac) on the GD7U I get three tabs: display, color, and options; but on my D90U I only get display and color

To me, it seems like somebody, either the set or the source, is crushing the picutre, even though my view mode is "dot-by-dot". I really have no idea what is going wrong, but now that you've brought it to my attention I'd like to get it sorted out.

Can everyone else with a PC 1080P connection over DVI bring up that test image:



And see if you see similar results?
Reply
Reply
post #326 of 1314
10/4/06 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeRoyK View Post

Yes, it does appear that the luma and chroma are not aligned. It may be interesting to see if either of the HDMI inputs would do better with the DVI output from the PC. All that is needed is a DVI->HDMI cable, time and interest.

I would love to try it myself, but I am still shopping. The Sharp is at the top of my list right now.

I don't think this is a luma/chroma timing issue. But I have no way in software to test this, since white has no chroma in RGB space.



Here is a test picture of a grid of red (255, 0, 0) and cyan (0,255,255) pixels next to grid of black and grey (199,199,199) pixels. On the sharp, all pixels show up as black and grey, the line between the fields is not even visible. On a normal monitor, it is obvious that the left side of the image has a different color and brightness than the right.



Here is another example, this time the grid squares are 2x2. Again, the sharp displays the left and right sides almost identically, whereas a normal monitor this will be obvious. Note -- a 2 pixel wide column of red and cyan down the middle of this image DOES display correctly on the sharp, but everything to the left of that is wrong.

Is the signal going down the DVI cable rgb, or Y CbCr, or something else?

I am still convinced this is something internal to the tv, and not the signal or cable. Remember, I can plug the same graphics card output and dvi cable into my other lcd monitor, and the image is near flawless.
Reply
Reply
post #327 of 1314
10/4/06 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandl View Post

I don't think this is a luma/chroma timing issue. But I have no way in software to test this, since white has no chroma in RGB space.

Is the signal going down the DVI cable rgb, or Y CbCr, or something else?

I am still convinced this is something internal to the tv, and not the signal or cable. Remember, I can plug the same graphics card output and dvi cable into my other lcd monitor, and the image is near flawless.

I was assuming RGB, but if it is Y CbCr, then this condition could exist if the timing between the Y and the two chroma signals is not coinsident. This could be a problem in the D90.
Reply
Reply
post #328 of 1314
10/4/06 at 11:30am
Tried my serial connection software on the 45GD7U and it wouldn't work there either. Then I tried it with a linux box and it still wouldn't work. Not sure what it is, likely my code I guess, but I don't have the time right away to troubleshoot it.

If someone wants my code to build upon I'm happy to pass it on. If somebody has some code or an app they've found to make it work (it seems all aquos have similar serial command sets) please pass it on when you can.
Reply
Reply
post #329 of 1314
10/4/06 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcarr316 View Post

Tried my serial connection software on the 45GD7U and it wouldn't work there either. Then I tried it with a linux box and it still wouldn't work. Not sure what it is, likely my code I guess, but I don't have the time right away to troubleshoot it.

If someone wants my code to build upon I'm happy to pass it on. If somebody has some code or an app they've found to make it work (it seems all aquos have similar serial command sets) please pass it on when you can.

I asked this already, have you tried tuning off all picture enhancement features? Black level extension, noise reduction, etc...?
Reply
Reply
post #330 of 1314
10/4/06 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleestack666 View Post

I decided to replace all 3 of my TVs and picked this one up for my 3yr old's playroom. Couldn't believe how cheap it was, especially given that I had paid the same price for a 32" XBR2 in the same order. I was wary of the quality given the low price, but after spending some time with the set today, I'm definitely happy with the purchase. Perfect size and great picture really make this one of my best audio/video value purchases. It also helped me rethink my reluctance to go LCD to replace my PRO1130HD. The new Sharps and Sonys will defintely get a look from me, but the PRO FHD-1 and new 65" Panny are still the frontrunners.

37D90U for a 3yr old?! WOW, good for him/her
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: LCD Flat Panel Displays

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Official SHARP 37D90U thread!