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Official Sony 40",46" XBR2, XBR3 - Owner's Thread - Page 66

post #1951 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellisfsu View Post

This is BS and you are clearly ignorant regarding this specific issue, or simply an ass. I have had 2 of the XBR2 panels, each showing drastically different degrees of backlighting uniformity, under identical conditions. The first panel was clearly flawed, exhibiting problems noticeable during normal viewing. My replacement panel is nearly flawless, even when I have the TV ON.

Again, he's not an ass - he's probably just comparing the XBR to a different technology (read: non-LCD) which does not suffer from backlight drawbacks {DLP, Plasma}.
post #1952 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by teknower View Post

what are you talkin about???? screenshots???? i PLAYED them both ON THE SAME EXACT TV!!!! forget screenshots... Gears of war looks significantly better, and this is coming from someone who played/liked resistance, and plans on getting a ps3 and resistance during the launch window. i am in no way a ps3 hater. it does not look as good as GOW, period. that being said, give sony developers some time (1 year) and they will catch up/possibly surpass GOW graphics, but from what ive PLAYED (on MY TV!!!) no ps3 launch titles compare to GOW.

Have you seen white engine GAMEPLAY demos of FFXIII?
post #1953 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetp View Post

The clouding is definitely an issue, and most certainly visible with source material. Any dark scene from a show or movie, regardless of source, at least in mine with the clouding issue, appears as a very distracting white or gray "fog". I've even adjusted anything that knocked the backlight down, without compromising the picture, but still showed up as this annoying fog. I only had it in one corner, about the size of a baseball, and it appeared in any dark scene. Especially annoying watching Battlestar, which has many dark scenes. I'll be firing my replacement set up tonight.

Totally agree. The clouding is ABSOLUTELY an issue. Especially but NOT exclusively on dark material.

Bad news -- after two nights of solid viewing, I have determined that my replacement panel, while much better than the previous one, still has clouding. It is less strong in all conditions than before, but it IS still there.

I'm REALLY bummed. I wanted this set to be OK. But I keep coming back to what I've said before: $4000 should buy a perfect or near-perfect picture. The cloud/fog is NOT perfect. And I say that allowing for the fact that LCD has limitations on black level. It should NOT have limitations on uniformity.

There are two interesting differences between the first and second panels. The second panel is brighter and has better saturation; not hugely better, but slightly. Unlike the first panel, this one takes about an hour for the cloud to get fully 'bloomed'. Odd. This behaviour led me to the [as it turns out] premature assumption that this panel would be ok.

Both of my sets were manufactured in Oct, '06

As Ellisfsu said a few posts back, after two unacceptable (to me, anyway) sets, I'm going to something different. [Cue funeral dirge.]
I'm going back to my 34hs510. Maybe I'll grab a Pioneer 1080p 50" plasma when they come down a little bit in price. $8000 is a little too salty.

I just don't want to have to deal with this anymore, and given that Sony isn't speaking to the issue, I have no confidence that a third panel wouldn't also have the same problem.

I'm bummin' in a big way, fellas. This panel is everything I want in a TV...except for the clouds, of course.
post #1954 of 3414
Since others have posted some pictures of their set on here, I thought I would post some of mine, since it's my pride and joy.

I have a KDL46XBR2 (August build). I'm using the CNET settings. I do notice some clouding while changing inputs, but (thankfully) I have not seen any while anything is actually being displayed.

(Note that these pictures are shrunk down, so they don't do the set justice. Full res pictures are available here if you are so inclined)

First off is a picture of my setup. Sorry for the flash flare - it was too dark without it. The stand is from Sanus . I like the look of the stand, and the way the tv seems to float, but I still need to figure out a way to hide the tangle of cables in the back.




Second picture is from the preview for Washed Away, as shown on HDNET's "Nothing But Trailers". (Thank you HDNET for finally coming to Canada a few days ago -- the content may be boring, but the PQ is stunning!). The colours in the photo don't pop the same way as they do on the tv. The trailer is the best video I've watched on this tv so far. (and note that any lack of sharpness in the picture is due to me not having a tripod!)





Last picture is from my Mac Mini (first generation PPC) hooked up through the VGA input. The actual image on the screen doesn't have the "parchment"-like look that the full-res version of the photo seems to - I think that's the effect of the camera. I'm amazed at the crispness of the fonts, even with the VGA connection (as I posted in a previous post, I had trouble getting things to look right with HDMI).





MSG me if you have any questions on the photos, or my experiences with the tv.

Brad.
post #1955 of 3414
I will throw out a couple of my pics, crappy camera, cod 2 looks unbelievably good!

[click the thumbnail for full res.]


post #1956 of 3414
Turn flash off next time bro - sweet pics by the way. The stand definitely needs an upgrade though, I'd be afraid of someone or something knocking the panel down from that tiny stand!!!
post #1957 of 3414
And take those damn stickers off.
post #1958 of 3414
Is Best Buy going to lower the prices on the XBR2s anytime soon?
post #1959 of 3414
Heeeeeeell no! Not for at least a year.
post #1960 of 3414
Why is that? One of the junkmails I got a while back said all TVs were discounted, and in fine print it said it excludes the Sony XBR models.
post #1961 of 3414
Well, I got my replacement 46XBR2 yesterday, plugged it in, and held my breath. Clouds still evident - Damn! Although not as pronounced, it is concenrated in the left upper corner, almost identical to my first set. I can at least view darker scenes without noticing the left corner as much as I did on the first set. My replacement is an October 2006 build from Mexico (note sure what my first set was). I don't think I will go through the hassle of replacing again, until I know that the problem is recognized and perhaps newer batches are manufactured correctly. It will be interesting to see new owners on this thread as they purchase sets into next year. I have a 4 yr. BB protection plan, and that much time to have this issue addressed if I am dissatisfied.
post #1962 of 3414
On the 46XBR2, I hear occasional snap or popping sound on over the air HD signals (antenna in the attic). Also, I hear them when the picture switches between commercials and the show I am watching. Is this just a signal quality issue? Also, while watching a 480i signal this morning, it will occasionally black out for a split second. I am speculating that this is just a signal weakness issue, where I may lose the signal for a second or some other type of interference. Neither the sound or dropped picture are issues with watching DVD's. One last item, I noticed watching a 1080i PBS OTA signal, as mentioned earlier in this long thread, the picture becomes almost a mosaic during fast motion, with very poor picture quality until the motion stops (like the picture someone posted that looked like a butterfly in a "Monet" painting). Is this also related to signal quality?

Thanks
post #1963 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewScott View Post

I have posted this on the other XBR thread but I would like owner opinions...

Before I set off a firestorm of criticism with this pic "IT'S YOUR CABLE BOX STUPID!" kind of comments. This issue happens with my DVD player and with my Xbox. It does not appear to happen through the PC Input. So NO IT IS NOT MY CABLE BOX.

After taking 20-30 pictures I just happened to catch a screenshot when the camera was panning. Any kind of movement on the screen causes this artifacting and tiling effect. Again not just when watching cable.

It is most prevalent through the HDMI connections, though it does happen through Component with my XBOX.

This picture is an extreme example it does not look like this all the time only during a shot with a lot of movement. The rest of the time it looks like this only partially.

Any way you look at it it is unwatchable and unacceptable. I believe some of these TVs may be shipping out defective.

Incidentally due to the 800x600 limitation of the upload pic the problem is not as clear. You can still see it but it is not as dramatic.

I would love to hear responses but please no attacks. I love Sony TV's and I have waited a long time for this one and am extremely disappointed. If it can be corrected I will be thrilled. If I replace it and it works fine I will be thrilled. But after reading this forum I dont have much hope.

Incidentally this shot was taken with Custom settings and all the correcting DRC and NR turned off. It is even more obvious with these settings turned on.


I found this from Andrew Scott's post. Funny, my example was also a PBS children's show, at 1080i, which makes me think it's that incoming signal. It is WGBH in Boston area. I didn't notice it while watching other HD channels.
post #1964 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongoos150 View Post

Heeeeeeell no! Not for at least a year.

their prices are crazy

I have a feeling CC will drop them under 3000 before new years
post #1965 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetp View Post

Well, I got my replacement 46XBR2 yesterday, plugged it in, and held my breath. Clouds still evident - Damn! Although not as pronounced, it is concenrated in the left upper corner, almost identical to my first set. I can at least view darker scenes without noticing the left corner as much as I did on the first set. My replacement is an October 2006 build from Mexico (note sure what my first set was). I don't think I will go through the hassle of replacing again, until I know that the problem is recognized and perhaps newer batches are manufactured correctly. It will be interesting to see new owners on this thread as they purchase sets into next year. I have a 4 yr. BB protection plan, and that much time to have this issue addressed if I am dissatisfied.

Sweetp, do your clouds get stronger after the set has been on for a while? [I don't really know how long -- maybe an hour or so?]

My replacement was AWESOME after calibration, but after I watched a couple of fairly bright full-screen shows, I put on a 2.35:1 movie (matrix) and BOOM, cloud in the upper left corner.

I soon realized I could see the cloud during any dark material, but it took a lot longer to show up than on my first panel, where the clouds were extremely visible within 5-10 minutes.
post #1966 of 3414
I think I have to accept the fact that for some reason this unit finds less digital unencrypted QAM signals than the DVICO fusion card or the SFA 8300. Fortunately my new HDMI cable arrived, and the picture quality, as many have suggested here, is a major step up from the component cable.
post #1967 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraiggers View Post

Sweetp, do your clouds get stronger after the set has been on for a while? [I don't really know how long -- maybe an hour or so?]

My replacement was AWESOME after calibration, but after I watched a couple of fairly bright full-screen shows, I put on a 2.35:1 movie (matrix) and BOOM, cloud in the upper left corner.

I soon realized I could see the cloud during any dark material, but it took a lot longer to show up than on my first panel, where the clouds were extremely visible within 5-10 minutes.

I don't think the clouds get stronger after time. I think it's more of your eyes adapting to the room darkness,which makes the set seem to "glow" from the backlight, and the foggy corner seem all the worse. During bright scenes or watching the TV in daylight, not a real problem to me. I am, however, frustrated, as I am sure you are, and feel a sense of defeat over this. I'm really not sure what to do. I don't think I am ready to give up on this set, based on an otherwise beautiful picture.
post #1968 of 3414
Mine is built in Mexico, but ill have to double check on the build date. I dont see any back light bleeding on mine. and I didn't see any cloudiness whenever I switch to an input without a source.
post #1969 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latin-Man View Post

Mine is built in Mexico, but ill have to double check on the build date. I dont see any back light bleeding on mine. and I didn't see any cloudiness whenever I switch to an input without a source.

All of the XBR2/3 TV's are assembled in Mexico.
Every LCD TV has backlight bleed. If it didn't you wouldn't be able to see the image on the screen.
I guess if you replaced your LCD panel with a piece of black plywood that would eliminate the backlight bleed. May be a fire hazzard though, so check with your local fire department first before making the change.
post #1970 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetp View Post

I don't think the clouds get stronger after time. I think it's more of your eyes adapting to the room darkness,which makes the set seem to "glow" from the backlight, and the foggy corner seem all the worse. During bright scenes or watching the TV in daylight, not a real problem to me. I am, however, frustrated, as I am sure you are, and feel a sense of defeat over this. I'm really not sure what to do. I don't think I am ready to give up on this set, based on an otherwise beautiful picture.

A sense of defeat is EXACTLY how I feel about this. Maybe I'm noticing things that other owners can be more sanguine about, but what matters to me is that I AM satisfied, not someone else. For $4k, I think the picture should be COMPLETELY uniform. Perhaps what I've really discovered in this process is that larger LCD panels do not universally meet the PQ levels that I'm personally looking for in a large TV. [shrug] I'm pretty much throwing in the towel on the 46xbr.

Nascar Dog: If I understand LCD technology, backlight bleed is most certainly NOT required to see the picture. Making light of other peoples' concerns/issues does NOT engender goodwill.
post #1971 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraiggers View Post

A sense of defeat is EXACTLY how I feel about this. Maybe I'm noticing things that other owners can be more sanguine about, but what matters to me is that I AM satisfied, not someone else. For $4k, I think the picture should be COMPLETELY uniform. Perhaps what I've really discovered in this process is that larger LCD panels do not universally meet the PQ levels that I'm personally looking for in a large TV. [shrug] I'm pretty much throwing in the towel on the 46xbr.

Nascar Dog: If I understand LCD technology, backlight bleed is most certainly NOT required to see the picture. Making light of other peoples' concerns/issues does NOT engender goodwill.

I'll take some pics of my XBR3 tonight using various backlighting settings to demonstrate that; at least on my panel, that non-linear backlighting [clouding] only manifests at the highest settings - and it extremely linear when set properly. Again, this panel cannot produce deep black/blacks that CRT can.
post #1972 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraiggers View Post

Nascar Dog: If I understand LCD technology, backlight bleed is most certainly NOT required to see the picture. Making light of other peoples' concerns/issues does NOT engender goodwill.

Just compare an original GameBoy (Without a backlight) to a GameBoy Advance SP or Nintendo DS (Both having backlights) or any other LCD device that has a backlight and it is pretty obvious that without a backlight blasting light at the back of the panel, you would have a really hard time watching your TV in anything but very bright conditions.
post #1973 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLampke View Post

I'll take some pics of my XBR3 tonight using various backlighting settings to demonstrate that; at least on my panel, that non-linear backlighting [clouding] only manifests at the highest settings - and it extremely linear when set properly. Again, this panel cannot produce deep black/blacks that CRT can.

That's the real issue with the sets with problems. Even on the lowest settings, in a dark room, the backlighing remains non-linear. I can darken all the backlighting, black level, power savings, light sensor, etc, to the point I can barely see the picture, and non-linear clouding is still perceptable! I wouldn't mind a uniform level of clouding, because it wouldn't be perceived as a problem for most viewers. It's the unevenness that draws your attention to the brighter patches.
post #1974 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetp View Post

That's the real issue with the sets with problems. Even on the lowest settings, in a dark room, the backlighing remains non-linear. I can darken all the backlighting, black level, power savings, light sensor, etc, to the point I can barely see the picture, and non-linear clouding is still perceptable! I wouldn't mind a uniform level of clouding, because it wouldn't be perceived as a problem for most viewers. It's the unevenness that draws your attention to the brighter patches.

That definitely does not the case on my XBR3 whatsoever using normal settings - the pics I hope will demonstrate this.
post #1975 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLampke View Post

That definitely does not the case on my XBR3 whatsoever using normal settings - the pics I hope will demonstrate this.


Can you tell us your build date? I think Oct/Sep 2006 is the one having problems.
post #1976 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nascar Dog View Post

Every LCD TV has backlight bleed. If it didn't you wouldn't be able to see the image on the screen.

You didn't say, "If it didn't have a backlight you wouldn't be able to see the screen." The implied object of your latter sentence is that if it didn't have backlight BLEED your wouldn't be able to see the screen. This isn't correct. While the backlight may be a useful addition, the bleed most certainly is not.

I just can't accept that the backlighting is so variable across the screen. It doesn't matter if 80% of the set is perfect, if the other 20% is cloudy and visibly brighter under all settings/conditions.

I now believe that this is a VERY common issue to some minimal degree, with relatively small numbers of sets SEVERELY affected, and also relatively small numbers cloud-free. Perhaps it isn't related to Mexican fabrication, but rather just a technical side-effect of large-panel LCDs.

At any rate, this generation of LCD XBRs is not for me. I want to sit down in front of my $4k TV and be just AWED. And the clouds destroy that for me.

Any suggestions for plasma 1080p in the 50" range? Panny has a commercial model - any idea when that might migrate over to consumer? I can get a deal on Panny through my company, but only the consumer stuff...
post #1977 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcrash001 View Post

Can you tell us your build date? I think Oct/Sep 2006 is the one having problems.

Oct '06
post #1978 of 3414
I thought someone else with the cloud issue had a set from August. I don't think this issue is really limited to Sept/Oct. Could be wrong, though, obviously...
post #1979 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellisfsu View Post

This is BS and you are clearly ignorant regarding this specific issue, or simply an ass. I have had 2 of the XBR2 panels, each showing drastically different degrees of backlighting uniformity, under identical conditions. The first panel was clearly flawed, exhibiting problems noticeable during normal viewing. My replacement panel is nearly flawless, even when I have the TV ON.

Apparently, other folks are experiencing problems similar to what I experienced with my first panel. These problems are not normal, even to the inherent shortcomings of LCD technology. And because this thread is dedicated to the particular TVs exhibiting this problem, I feel our Clouding posts are perfectly reasonable.

How bout YOU start your own thread, dedicated to pretentious ramblings regarding issues you know nothing about.

This is an absolute crock.

There are two degrees of 'clouding':

1. The 99.9% of LCD TV owners who notice mild backlight inconsitencies when the panel is 'on' in that fraction of a second before the source changes. Just like a laptop or the rear of a digital camera, a blank backlit LCD screen has some cloudy appearance. It has ZERO impact on the picture when the panel is doing what it's supposed to be doing- showing a picture. We don't stare at blank powered panels.

2. The 00.1% of LCD TV owners that have a legitimate defective product with a defective backlight or a poor backlight alignment. They have a legitimate gripe and should return their panel just as they would if the speakers were broken or the tuner was inoperable.

There is no other option. There's no such thing as a "cloud prone" LCD. It either works or it doesn't.

BJ
post #1980 of 3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nascar Dog View Post

All of the XBR2/3 TV's are assembled in Mexico.
Every LCD TV has backlight bleed. If it didn't you wouldn't be able to see the image on the screen.
I guess if you replaced your LCD panel with a piece of black plywood that would eliminate the backlight bleed. May be a fire hazzard though, so check with your local fire department first before making the change.

Post of the year!

Well, might have been. See, I'm typing this on an LCD computer monitor and I couldn't read half of it because of the 'clouding'. Ooh. Scary clouding.

BK
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