or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Screens › DIY Screen Section › Laminate Screen Material and Testing!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Laminate Screen Material and Testing! - Page 8

post #211 of 2849
HD wanted $80 for a 5x10 sheet, plus $15 special order charge, for a total of $95 + tax (0.0825%) for a total of $102.84 and a 1-2 week waiting time. Fortunately we have a Wilsonart distribution center about 15 miles from my office, so I went and picked up a sheet of D354-60 5x10 sheet for $107 out the door. Cost per sq/ft was $1.98 for all sizes.

D354 = Designer White
60 = Matte finish

It's out in the car waiting for me to take it home. I can't wait.

Joseph
post #212 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephShaw View Post

.............Fortunately we have a Wilsonart distribution center about 15 miles from my office, so I went and picked up a sheet of D354-60 5x10 sheet for $107 out the door. Cost per sq/ft was $1.98 for all sizes.

D354 = Designer White
60 = Matte finish

It's out in the car waiting for me to take it home. I can't wait.

Joseph

Same price I got. Its more expensive for the public to go straight to the distributor......but you get it "Right Now".
post #213 of 2849
Thread Starter 
I really did have a hectic day at work, I thought I was going to be able to get this converted to web friendly presentations and get it up here sooner.

Here is the raw data. I know a few people out there may be more interested in this than charts and graphs.


Next let's look at the RGB graph. This shows the color linearity of the samples. Most are showing very similar characteristics to those of manufactured screens.


Let's compare this chart with Prof's original color swatch data that I converted to a graph as well. This chart has actual manufactured screens as well as some DIY paint data. This is a nice comparison of the color values to the Wilsonart colors.



This next graph is one that is going to have a lot of people's attention, it is a gain comparison. StudioTek 130 and The Grayhawk are also shown on this graph for comparison purposes.

The Wilsonart Grey actually has better gain characteristics than the Grayhawk, and Designer White is giving the ST130 a run for it's money as well, but not quite there. What makes this graph important is the inclusion of actual manufactured screens. Now we can see actual side by side data comparisons with a tangible item, no guessing or speculation. We need more data like this, for both paints and commercial screens.

The last plot shows which direction any color push is in. This is for comparison purposes to get an idea of what color is being pushed and how much more than another sample.

I want to sincerely thank Prof for lending all of us his time and equipment to give us some professional data. I think we are on the cusp of a new look at DIY. The gain graph alone adds credibility to any claims that were made so far on this thread, and I hope others start to gather and provide data. This will raise the bar across the board if others follow suit. This isn't an end though, it's just the beginning, more research and tests need to be done.

I would like to see some more data on Fashion Grey, and Platinum. All in good time though...

So here is the breakdown:

Designer White D354-60 is the recommended color for a white screen and it has a gain of 1.24. This will be good for people with light control (or evening viewing). It will provide clean colors and a bright vibrant picture. Since it has a higher gain, there is a possibility for projector's with very high lumens to hot spot, but the projector should be able to compensate for this by decreasing the brightness some. It's almost a StudioTek that is virtually indestructible.

Grey 1500-60 has a good color balance (202/191/191), and its lightness and gain is comparable with the Grayhawk. It has a gain of .94 on center, which is rather high for a gray screen(The Grayhawk is .84). The gain does drop off, but no more than the Grayhawk, in fact it is 'slightly' better at a 50 degree viewing angle than the Grayhawk.

Dove Grey D92-60 is for people that like the dark gray that the Firehawk G2 has. Dove Grey is a little lighter than the G2, but much more neutral with a slight green deficiency. This one deserves some attention and testing for ambient light situations and with the right top coat mix this could rival the G2 at a fraction of the cost.

Fashion Grey D381-60 is very close the same darkness as Silver Screen... When I held it up to my Silver Screen 'screen' it is very close to the same shade, but now we see with the data it is much more neutral than Silver Screen (FG - 195 188 194, SS - 207 202 215) and we see that same slight green deficiency that most manufactured screens exhibit. Silver Screen has this same deficiency as well, but has a blue push to it as well.

Fashion Grey and Platinum are sadly missing on the gain graph, but I will see if we can get some data and tests on that. This was a lot of work Prof did in a short period of time, so we should be Ecstatic with what we have and not nit pick and point out what wasn't included.

Just think, all of this data and good news and as a screen this stuff is virtually indestructible!

To give everyone an idea of what may be coming, I also sent Formica samples, and several films that I thought looked interesting when placed over some of the laminates and Chromes. So for now we at least have a bonafide white (Designer) and a gray (Grey) that anyone should feel comfortable using. Then for darker grays we have Fashion Grey as a very close but more neutral SS alternative, Platinum comes in as darker than Fashion Grey, but lighter than Dove Grey, and as mentioned Dove Grey is for the G2 lovers out there. No it's not going to be exactly like a G2, but it could be close enough for some to be quite happy with.

This has been a long post but I think it was worth it. The last thing I want to bring up, and this will probably even excite the people that prefer paints over the laminates... with the data provided these colors can most likely be converted to a paint formula. I would also love to see some experimenting with the grays and paints... but all in good time!

I want to add something to all of this... no DIY method will usurp the professional screen world. I think some methods, both paint and material can rival and maybe even match or exceed the quality of cheaper low end manufactured screens, and some mixes may even be in the mid level mfg range... but let's face it if we could match a high end screen with a hundred dollars or so of paint and or material, then they would be doing it too.
post #214 of 2849
The gain chart was the most interesting to me.

I rearranged it to make the order of the materials line up with their relative position...

post #215 of 2849
WB,
Have you heard back from Wilsonart?

Ericglo
post #216 of 2849
How did you determine the gain of the individual screens?

Ericglo
post #217 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

How did you determine the gain of the individual screens?

Ericglo

Prof has equipment for that.

No I haven't heard back from them yet. I was going to call today but got swamped at work. Now that we have some data, maybe AVS can do a power buy and we can work something out with Wilsonart

Ericglo you and Clarence are the reason everyone is so excited... how did this stuff slip into the archives? I've said it repeatedly, but thanks again guys for bringing this back to the forefront. Did you happen to see rfisher's shots where he painted a piece of laminate? This stuff is showing more versatility than I think anyone expected!
post #218 of 2849
Nicely done gentlemen. Now does anyone have a BF sample we can get tested? It's that easy.

Also, we should test up some Sintra and other PVC based boards. I just got a piece and painted it up, white primer first and then some translucent metallic paint on top of it. Wow!! Exciting stuff.
post #219 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benven View Post

Nicely done gentlemen. Now does anyone have a BF sample we can get tested? It's that easy.

Also, we should test up some Sintra and other PVC based boards. I just got a piece and painted it up, white primer first and then some translucent metallic paint on top of it. Wow!! Exciting stuff.

I have a sample of Do-able coming, and anyone that wants to send some of their leftover pieces of Parkland or anything else let me know! I think we should take that data and either combine it with the Color thread or start a new one, but I think it would fit with that thread nicely.
post #220 of 2849
BRAVO
Regards
post #221 of 2849
Great work!!!

It looks like white and designer white have a ~6-10 point blue push, is that significant enough to cause concern or is it within normal adjustment range.
I went several weeks trying to adjust out the blue push of the silver screen paint without success.

Also the grey has a ~11 point red push.
Assuming a flatter curve is better, are these amounts of push significant? ???
post #222 of 2849
So I sit here and read the charts.

Im convinced that we have a good screen........but are you proving that wilsonart beats $3000 dedicated screens?
post #223 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

I have a sample of Do-able coming, and anyone that wants to send some of their leftover pieces of Parkland or anything else let me know! I think we should take that data and either combine it with the Color thread or start a new one, but I think it would fit with that thread nicely.

I think this thread is where the data should reside. I am still playing around with my small piece of Sintra. If I get another one, I will let you know. It is a bit glossy, that's why I primed it. I guess we could always test bare Sintra versus primed Sintra.
post #224 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

Prof has equipment for that.

What kind of equipment? A good light meter or something else?

Quote:


No I haven't heard back from them yet. I was going to call today but got swamped at work. Now that we have some data, maybe AVS can do a power buy and we can work something out with Wilsonart

I hope that they are amenable to doing some D65 grey colors.

Quote:


Ericglo you and Clarence are the reason everyone is so excited... how did this stuff slip into the archives? I've said it repeatedly, but thanks again guys for bringing this back to the forefront. Did you happen to see rfisher's shots where he painted a piece of laminate? This stuff is showing more versatility than I think anyone expected!

I have no idea. If you look at that thread where I took some measurements, then you see that I was the last person to post. I just assumed no one had any interest.

I saw it, but I stand by my belief that one should use as is especially if some good grey solutions are offered. It is not that I don't think it could not be a good substrate for this, but I think one could get a cheaper substrate like MDF.

Ericglo
post #225 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

What kind of equipment? A good light meter or something else?

Not sure what all he has, and even if he told me I most likely wouldn't know anyway lol, but I know it's all professional equipment and more than I could spend. You should PM and email him because you two are into colors on a professional level and could really click I'm sure, and that would benefit us all in here. Maybe you'd be willing to help out over on the color thread too

I hope that they are amenable to doing some D65 grey colors.

They said they would and could, but I didn't get any prices. What they told me was when they get a sample of what color we'd want then they could determine if they can do it and how much, I'll try to pin them down some.

It looks like we have some usable grays now, but if they can make a run of custom gray that would be perfect... it would probably have to be a minimum of x number of sheets, but I think we could fill that easy.

Maybe you can answer the green deficency the manufactured screens exhibit... why do they do that? Some of the laminates show the same characteristics, so I would say that's a good thing...


I have no idea. If you look at that thread where I took some measurements, then you see that I was the last person to post. I just assumed no one had any interest.

Yeah it just seemed to die and I don't know why... look at all the interest now!

I saw it, but I stand by my belief that one should use as is especially if some good grey solutions are offered. It is not that I don't think it could not be a good substrate for this, but I think one could get a cheaper substrate like MDF.

I like the idea that this could create some cross experimenting and maybe some hybrid screens, but if we can come up with the right premade colors with gain like these are showing, that really would be something cool!

Ericglo

I think we are starting down that path... let's hope we get some more good news...
post #226 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I'm curious about the gain measurement. Is it for a specific color of light?

I just can't help but wonder if we are missing something when comparing to a commercial screen.

There's color balance. Gain curve which is an indication of viewing cone, assuming gain curve characteristics are the same for all colors. The only other thing I can think of is hot spotting characteristics.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to rain on the parade, in fact I'm pretty excited about this. I just want to make sure we have all the bases covered.

Gain is at about 6500K, but it really wouldn't matter. It would be the same for all colors.

As far as missing something when compared to a commercial screen, yes - this is entirely possible. Measurements don't tell all, but they do get us in the ballpark. Gain is a function of lightness, specularity, texture, etc. Screens with near identical gain curves may have entirely different viewing characteristics.

These materials look very good, but they are not the end of the road. There is much to be said for a coating of some sort. A flat white or gray screen gives a flat looking image, but a semi-transparent coating gives a much more life-like appearance, to me at least. Two screens could have identical color and gain, but the two-step version would probably look better to most people. Most commercial screens employ such a coating, as well as a texture of some sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

What kind of equipment? A good light meter or something else?

Matchrite CF58 spectrophotometer
Photo Research 1505D ½° spotmeter
Photo Research 504 photometer
Rube Goldberg goniophotometer
Weston 756 photometer

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedeal View Post

It looks like white and designer white have a ~6-10 point blue push, is that significant enough to cause concern or is it within normal adjustment range.
I went several weeks trying to adjust out the blue push of the silver screen paint without success.

Also the grey has a ~11 point red push.
Assuming a flatter curve is better, are these amounts of push significant? ???

This is indeed the question. A flatter curve is certainly better, but many projectors have a very wide range of color temperature adjustment, so they could theoretically be calibrated to match most anything. Some have a problem with the adjustment steps being too coarse, though.

The goal is to get each part of the video chain as close to spec as possible. With this in mind, it makes sense to me to aim for a truly neutral screen. Ideally, if you could measure the white point of your particular projector, you could concoct a mix that would be exactly neutral for that projector, and perhaps others of the same make and model.

Bottom line, I think that most projectors could be calibrated against any of these colors and give a "watchable" image. But if "watchable" would satisfy us, we wouldn't be having this conversation...

Garry
post #227 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BKM72 View Post

So I sit here and read the charts.

Im convinced that we have a good screen........but are you proofing that wilsonart beats $3000 dedicated screens?

No I don't think DIY can beat a $3000 screen, but at least some measurments are being taking now to try to at least work with and try to raise the bar some. Everyone keeps talking and asking about gain, now that someone took the time to run some tests and analysis, I hope it's not going to turn into something negative. I think we made a break through... the next step is to test other materials too, including paint samples.

I'd like to see someone work on a translucent mix top coat for one of the grays to see if there can be some improvement done there. Maybe the viewing cone can be improved upon... things like that.

If you already have a great screen no need to go out and buy this and start over, more than likely your screen is mated to your projector better than any off the shelf material or one step paint method could ever do. For new people looking for a simple one step method this could be a nice find.

We have some grays to work with now, so field testing has to be done, no doubt about that. This isn't meant to be a definative answer or end to anything... it's just a begining and in a way show how much more needs to be done and can be done.
post #228 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I'm curious about the gain measurement. Is it for a specific color of light?

I just can't help but wonder if we are missing something when comparing to a commercial screen.

There's color balance. Gain curve which is an indication of viewing cone, assuming gain curve characteristics are the same for all colors. The only other thing I can think of is hot spotting characteristics.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to rain on the parade, in fact I'm pretty excited about this. I just want to make sure we have all the bases covered.

I think that's what we're trying to do, but to cover the bases we have to start somewhere. Now we have some data and testing, but things can't stop here.

Like Prof said, some of this material may be good, but a top coat could make it even better.
post #229 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

I think that's what we're trying to do, but to cover the bases we have to start somewhere. Now we have some data and testing, but things can't stop here.

Like Prof said, some of this material may be good, but a top coat could make it even better.

Like what Me said in post #225. Paint up that board with some translucent mix and you got one heck of a screen Mon!
post #230 of 2849
Bravo!

I think a 5x10 designer white sheet is in my future. I'll stop by my local HD this weekend, unless anyone has a better recommendation for someone in the NYC area.
post #231 of 2849
WB-
Where are you getting your sample of Do-able from?
Just want to make sure that you're getting the right stuff and not some 3/4" thick piece of melamine mdf.
Also, what size sample are you expecting?
LMK if I can provide you with a sample of the correct material in a decent size. -j
post #232 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyman00 View Post

WB-
Where are you getting your sample of Do-able from?
Just want to make sure that you're getting the right stuff and not some 3/4" thick piece of melamine mdf.
Also, what size sample are you expecting?
LMK if I can provide you with a sample of the correct material in a decent size. -j

HG57 is sending me a sample from a piece he got for a screen. I don't know what size it will be.
post #233 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

HG57 is sending me a sample from a piece he got for a screen. I don't know what size it will be.

It's a 6" square. It's not from a screen, as they don't sell the full 4 x 8 sheets in my location, just 2' x 4' panels. I'm sure it's the doable (it was listed as such at Home Depot and is 1/4 thick mdf type hardboard with a textured vinyl (not melamine) coating on one side). It's the same material as shown in my screen shot on page 3 of this thread.
post #234 of 2849
HG57-
Cool. Did you have to drive down here to get your full sheet of do-able?

WB-
If you want a larger piece of do-able, LMK. -j

BTW, I do have the pionite. Formica and Wilsonart will be here on the 12th. -j
post #235 of 2849
HG-
Nevermind; I understand(you were only able to get the 2x4 sheet). -j
post #236 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyman00 View Post

HG57-
Cool. Did you have to drive down here to get your full sheet of do-able?

WB-
If you want a larger piece of do-able, LMK. -j

BTW, I do have the pionite. Formica and Wilsonart will be here on the 12th. -j

Skyman,

Are you getting full sheets of all 3 laminates?
post #237 of 2849
Pionite: 30 x 48"
Wilsonart & Formica 36 x 49. -j
post #238 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyman00 View Post

Pionite: 30 x 48"
Wilsonart & Formica 36 x 49. -j

Great, looking forward to your comparisons of the three laminates.

Hope you post some screen shots of all three together.
post #239 of 2849
Thread Starter 
I read in a post someone put up where they said a slight red push was good for ambient light, I never heard this and haven't seen anything else on it... can anyone confirm or deny that?

I can't find that post, if I can I'll link over to it...
post #240 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55 View Post

These materials look very good, but they are not the end of the road. There is much to be said for a coating of some sort. A flat white or gray screen gives a flat looking image, but a semi-transparent coating gives a much more life-like appearance, to me at least.

Garry

Well, for me at least, the ability to have a screen that can stand up to the hands of my four kids is a plus, so I think I'll go without the coating for now. I would be worried that a coating might not last on a screen in this house until the children are older. The Wilsonart Designer White flat looks really, really good with my Mitsubishi HC3000U. It's also a very bright combo, and I think it's time to turn down the brightness even more and paint the walls.

I am still interested in seeing what happens with the coating develpoments, though. I just won't get to use them.

Joseph
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Screen Section
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Screens › DIY Screen Section › Laminate Screen Material and Testing!