Laminate Screen Material and Testing! - Page 91

This thread seems to have at least some of the information you're seeking: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1240845

Hi
If anyone would be so kind to visit maica.com.my and under Product information and maiLaminate and tell me which color is closer to Designer White D354
as my country dont have Wilson Art
Thanks

Our looking at color samples on a website will not work. You are looking for a color that is as neutral as possible. The best way to determine this is get an actual sample of the laminates that you think are very close to white (i.e., neutral). Then put each sample on a scanner and look at the R,B and G readings of several different points on each sample. (I have had two different scanners over the years both of them allowed me to make these readings--usually in the advanced scanner mode. This assumes that your scanner has both a basic and advance mode.) You want a sample where the RBG ratings are as close to being equal as possible. The higher values are closer to pure white. Lower values are more gray in appearance. DW D-354 is very close to being a pure white as a point of reference.

Having the samples will also allow you to judge how 'shiney' the surface is. Shiney surfaces cause 'hot spotting' while a matte surface finish is more resistant to hot spotting.

Hope this helps.

Yes, that helps a lot... thanks for the tip.
I'll use Photoshop, Eyedropper tool to check if the color is closer to R255,G255,B255 as possible

* sigh.. the largest size is 4' x 8' , if i need a larger screen i have to join..

I just created a thread over in the General Home Theater Room forum, but I wanted to post in this thread as well since it provided so much guidance for my WA DW screen build. I took pictures throughout the entire build process and hope to be of help to someone else on their future build, similar to how you all have helped me. (Special thanks to MississippiMan for all his posts as they gave much guidance!

The full build thread can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1303114

While I outline the entire build process in the other thread, below are a sampling of pictures from the completed build.

120" Wilsonart Designer White DIY Screen
720p Infocus X9 Projector on Eco-Mode setting

Is any one using dw354 with a JVC RS40 projector--curious how 3d reacts with the dw.

Ok. I have read through this entire thread and have decided to do a DIY screen with WA-DW. My question comes in with regards to building a frame and mounting it. I plan to do a 5 x 10 sheet and maximize the material for a 122" screen. It seems like the best way would be to use contact cement and adhere the whole sheet of laminate to something.

What is the best material to mount it to? MDF, Plywood etc.

Or is it necessary. Can I just adhere it to a frame built with 1 X 4's?

Should I trim the laminate first or adhere it to the backing material and then use a router to trim off the excess laminate?

Thanks in advance for any help.

First let me say that I am no longer using a laminate screen but it was a great solution for me at the time. Mine was screwed to a 1x4 frame on the edges beyond the area I was using for the image. I then used black fabric along the edges to cover up the area where there were screws. The problem is that the laminate is relatively heavy yet very flimsy on it's own. I could never get it to hang flat and it would usually sag in a bit near the bottom third of the screen or bow out in the top third, however you look at it I guess. If I had it to do over again I would glue the whole thing down to a more rigid backing material, using the same glue they use to put laminate on counter tops. I would stay away from MDF just because it's so dam heavy. You might get away with a lighter grade of plywood and still have it lay flat but not weigh a ton. A word of caution, the laminate is more brittle than you might think, be very careful bending it and working around the edges. I would probably trim it first and then adhere to whatever solid surface you plan to use. Now, I'm not sure what the going rate is for the DW laminate now but thinking back on when I did this, I'm guessing I had maybe $150 in the whole thing and ended up throwing it away. I finally bought a fixed frame screen for around $300 and haven't looked back. If I ever decide to use something else I can take it apart and box it up like it came and sell it. The laminate was a fun project but I had hotspotting in the upper center of the screen with my projector and no amount of adjustment was correcting it. Bottom line, in my humble opinion, unless you are getting the materials at a great deal and just love to DIY, I would save a bit and get a fixed frame screen. Good luck with whatever you end up doing.

Dropzone7,

While the fire of DIY Screen making might of lost you in your "move", that's no reason to refer another interested wannabe DIY'er whose already determined what he wants...and is asking for advice pertaining to that choice, to a Mfg screen.

This is the DIY Screen Forum.

But your analysis and description of what you'd do if you did it all again was some very helpful advice....so there is that to look to. As far as the Hot Spotting, proper PJ placement can virtually eliminate that issue, by placing the PJ lens as close to the top of the screen as possible, or even within the boarders of the screen area. WA-DW is after all a "higher than unity gain 1.0" screen.

If I had a guess at it I'd bet your PJ was mounted higher than that.

I built a 2.35:1 WA-DW screen a bit more than a year ago. The frame was 1X4 aspen and the panel was bonded directly to the frame with contact cement. The performance was excellent and we observed no 'hot spotting'. (Projector is located just below the top of the screen because I have an AE4000 and use the zoom method to change aspect ratios.)

About June of this year, I noticed that there was a 'bow' or 'bubble' iin the upper half of the middle of the screen. It was really only visible when the credits roll at the end of the movie.

I researched this thread and found a couple of others who had had a similar problem. What I decided to do was to use a piece of 1/4 inch plywood as a base for my laminate. Luckily, I was able to peal the laminate off the frame. (If you try this, look for a spot where the screen is not securely bonded to the frame. Contact cement is not really that strong and once you can easily break the bond by slipping a paint scraper under it and it will peal the laminate loose from the frame. Contact cement gets its strength by bonding lots and lots of square inches at a relatively low strength!)

I glued and nailed (1/2 inch finishing nails) the plywood to the frame. I painted the exposed back side to prevent it from gaining and losing moisture. I then used Contact cement to remount my laminate to the front of the plywood. I have had no sign of any warping since.

By the way, I did get a true 1/4 plywood panel and not the 7/64 underlayment panel. It costs a bit more but it has a lot more rigidity!

The big advantage that I see to using a 1X4 frame with a 1/4" plywood facing is weight. I would guess this method weighs less than half that of a 3/4" thick panel.

Made a screen to experiment before finalizing the design for the 4 x 8 WA DW awaiting mounting. Others have tried it in the TWH thread. Glued a sheet 1/2" rigid foamboard insulation to the TWH. Lightweight, self standing capable, easily handled by 1 person, From what I learned doing this I will most likely use 3/4" rigid foamboard with a 1" x 4" or 6" wood perimeter frame for the WA DW mount. Instead of hanging the screen it will set on something like a shelf or 2x2 screwed to the wall. Ya, low budget and quick assembly.

It seems to me, after over 6 months of lurking around and occasionally posting in DIY laminate screen threads, people having problems with the laminate staying "flat" mounted it to a wood frame. We all know that wood expands, contracts, warps, and so on given changes in temperature and humidity. Even if those changes are 1/8 of an inch, the laminate will show it. As one wood working website once wrote, "The tendency of wood to contract and expand, shrink and swell cannot be stopped. You must plan for it. Design and build with dimensional change in mind."

One poster here constructed a wood frame with spring loaded tensioners that allowed him to tighten and loosen the frame as the wood changed in size. Have a search for that if you're determined to use wood.

If you're interested in something more "rigid," may I suggest a frame constructed of lightweight extruded 1" aluminum tubing sold by the 80/20 company. You can read about one poster's build here. Over 2 years later, he has had zero problems with it. Some other pros to 80/20's Quick Frame aluminum tubing are: lightweight, cut to your exact specifications, and easy to assemble.

To be fair, wood frame pros include easy to acquire, easy to cut, easy to assemble, some woods are lightweight.

For my money, however, aluminum tubing is the way to go. And I'll be going that way Monday when I call to place my order.

Good luck, dmac.

Ah, I had forgotten that you are the gate keeper of all things DIY when it comes to screens here! My intentions certainly was not to discourage the poster from trying laminate or any other DIY screen solution and I'm sorry if anyone here thought that. You are correct that this is the DIY screen forum and the last thing I want to do is come in here trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm all for DIY really. My whole setup/room was built on the cheap and with DIY at the center of every project. I wouldn't trade the hours spent with my dad working on this room for any manufactured screen, curtains, speaker stands, projector hushbox or room treatments in the world. My theater is nothing more than a spare bedroom turned into a "batcave" but I love it and there is no way I could have achieved what I have in there had I not employed some serious DIY labor and creativity.

I hear where you are coming from about the projector mounting and I'm sure that in other setups it would be easier to avoid the hotspotting. I should have prefaced my remarks before by saying that my setup is a little unusual. I have an older CRT projector (130 lbs.) and mounting and physical position is by the book and not nearly as flexible as a digital projector setup would be. I doubt that many here are using a beast of a projector like I am so optimal position to the laminate screen is probably not as much a concern.

MM, I know you are always eager to help here and I have even been a benefactor of your knowledge here myself over the years. I remember my first screen (blackout cloth and Behr UPW paint) and how amazed I was at the image one could achieve for around $30-$40 and a few hours of work) I appreciate what you do here and I wouldn't hesitate to help a friend or family member with a DIY screen project if they got the hankering to try it. To the poster I responded to, please don't take my earlier comments as my condemning the laminate. Just because I wasn't able to implement it properly doesn't mean you can't. Many here have had great success and if I did it again I'm sure it would be an improvement over my last attempt. I had many challenges in my room so another space might be a totally different story. Best of luck and let us know how it works out.

DMAC1050:

I've had excellent luck with my WA DW 2.4:1 130" curved screen build, and I somehow lucked onto not gluing the laminate to a frame, but instead using home-made clamps around the periphery of the laminate that allow some shifting to compensate for any expansion or contraction of the frame. I've posted pictures on this forum, but I'd be happy to send a PPT file to show some of the details of my fabrication (email request to larrychief@aol.com). The resultant screen is very lightweight, and easily hung on French cleats. As far as I can tell, it is still in perfect shape after ~2yrs.
Larry

Frank-as posted earlier in this thread I'm one of those who had bow issue in summer humidity. Are you sure the painting worked for you? I thought laminate was inert and did not interact, but could be wrong. If so, then I'll try that also for my screen. Being winter/low humidity it's perfect now to apply some sealer.


Yep - agreed, as a do-over I'd go 100% alum framing and curve it (I use a-lens) OR for the curve portion find a non-wood alternative.

Hi Larry, how's your HT projects lately?
Larry has very creative and simple solution also.

[edit]
Saw this at Home Depot, as lesson learned on my curved screen method I used could work using this instead of the pine board for the curve backing.
Would need to test contact cement to laminate adhesion on a piece, but assuming that worked this would easily solve the small expansion/contraction by humidity.
For future other builders to consider.

Well, I am not 100% certain. But it doesn't need to pick up much moisture to produce a bow on big surface. One thing you might want to try is to throw a scrap piece on WW into a some water and watch it for a few days. I do know that contact cement does bond to the backside which leads me to believe that some solvents will penetrate the back surface. Is it possible that the wooden frame shrank? Could be. But the bow was centered horizontally and a bit below the center vertically. About two-thirds of the screen was unaffected. If the frame was moving I would have suspected that the bow would have covered most of the frame. The frame had a coat of primer and two coats of black paint on all exposed surfaces. (As a point of information, there are two vertical stiffing ribs in my frame and the WW was originally edge bonded. There was no cement used to bond the WW to the ribs.)

At this point, it seems that my method of repair seems to have done the job. It is possible that we may never know the exact cause of the bowing on WW unless there are a number of persons who have constructed a frame from structural aluminum who live in areas with extremes in relative humidity will chime in with their experiences.

In any case, it would be my recommendation that WW be bonded to a backing substrate of 1/4" or thicker when mounted on a wooden frame and that it be completed bonded to that substrate.

Frank - I believe you!
I have leftover water based dead flat varnish, should 100% seal it from moisture.


If I don't do it this weekend, then after Superbowl weekend I'll apply 2 coats to the backside.
Timely to do this, because I'm finally doing the HT acoustics, and its been on my docket for 2 years now to stuff the backside with Roxul Rockboard 60, Mineral Wool Board, 2 inch thick, possible 4-6" on the ends (very similar acoustic properties as OC 705 w/o itchies)
(this is 2+ year old pict)

Just to chime in, I built a 120" poplar wood frame screen in April 2009 and hung it by the top of the frame. I did experience some warping after the summer and the lower right corner started to come away from the wall. I attached the bottom corners to the wall and haven't had a problem since. So this April will be 2 years and it still looks and works like new.

Hello!

I've been reading this thread with some interest. Here is my situation.

I bought a 140" roll of .8 gain medium gray material for my basement HT. I spent a tiny amount of money, and then again in the spirit of super economical DIY, I mounted it with heavy duty velcro to my basement wall. Frankly I was really totally surprised at just how well that worked. With some tugging, I got it almost perfectly smooth and flat, and the picture looks really good using my Epson 6100 at 9' projecting a 120" picture.

Now I'm toying with the idea of using WA-DW instead -- at 120", I'd like the flexibility to use a better color mode (rather than brightest) and still have the picture pop. Since my environment is ambient-light controlled, a nice white would do the trick.

Finally for my question: can I get away with mounting the laminate with the same super simple trick (velcro) I used for the grey material? Since the laminate is naturally fairly well-laying, I have in mind a few strips across the top so it's "hanging" and then a couple tug-mounting strips on each side and a few across the bottom. If anything seems to be sagging, tug harder.

Any thoughts from laminate veterans? Thanks in advance!

-0

It will not work well. The laminate will flex and have waves. People encounter such even when they make effective Frames that support the material at/along all sides. Not always mind you...many have great success. But simply Velcro-ing the material to the wall isn't "do-able".

In reality, WA-DW is not a choice that is all that easy a DIY project, and one that requires that it be done correctly. Poorly made frames and ineffectual adhesion can render the application quite unusable. At the largest sizes, things just get tougher. Oh...you can get'ter dun...but ya gotta do it right.

So, MM, one of the discussed solutions involving gluing the material to e.g. MDF is what you recommend for holding it flat? I don't mind doing a bit of extra work -- what I want to ensure is the lightest weight frame I can get. So if there is a particular substrate for gluing that is lighter than MDF, say, then that would be super good information. Thanks in advance!

-0

Well, it's a crazy thing. Any substrate both large and light enough to use as a one piece backer board would also be good to use as the actual screen. And cost pretty much the same too. So less expensive MDF is considered and used by some. But when the size of the Screen zooms out, so do the intractable logistics that keep such mounting solutions at bay.

MDF at 60" x 107" is going to weigh in at a back breaking level, even at 1/2"
That is a primary reason that so many build a "Stick" or "Tubular / Channel" Frame, and when you look at the posted examples, you can see how much thought and planning...as well as materials and cost goes into doing it right.
When one is going to such lengths, then considering a "one piece" mounting substrate whose cost parallels that of the WA-DW becomes a very viable and far easier mounting solution.

The material I would suggest is Sintra, a expanded PVC Foam Board. It's usually available in 5' x 10' x 1/4" sheets. If your capable of doing so, cutting the WA-DW to 60" x 107" (122" diag.) and mounting it( w/adhesive) onto a 60" x 1013" sheet of Sintra, leaving a 3" Sintra Borader at each side will allow you to mount the Screen with drywall screws at each end, and using 3" Sintra Strips at Top & Bottom, provide a "ledge" for the ensuing Screen Trim to tack up onto.

This assembly is a veritable no-brainer to make, and so much easier than constructing a really capable Frame the same size, that it's doesn't bear much discussion at all. It's lighter, the Sintra WILL NEVER WARP. And the Sintra is exceedingly receptive to virtually any adhesive.

Or...you get get the Sintra, hang it, paint it, trim it, and be done with it. Coating such a material with a "High Performance White" that will equal the WA-DW's performance at less cost is ridiculously easy. But THAT is a different story altogether for those looking for the "Hang-n-Shoot" option. But as your own request for info shows, WA-DW ain't nothin' at all like a Hang-n-Shoot.

Update: Between Saturday and Sunday I just got done putting (4) coats of varnish on the back of the screen AND the pine boards I used for the curve, all 3 exposed sides of the pine boards coated.
I'm actually cautiously optimistic that this will keep the humidity induced warpage away. If you seal out the moisture, the boards/and or the laminate should not warp.
Frank - thx.
Until Late June/Early July won't know, I'll report back then.


Come Wed I'll be getting (6) pcs of 2' x 4' Roxul Rockboard 60, Mineral Wool Board, 2 inch thick. That is going in back of the screen, attached to the frame, to absorb low freq. Then, the screen is going back on the wall.

MMan,

What thickness SINTRA do you recommend to glue the DW or FG laminate onto ? And is there a recommended type of glue to use ?

Another question, may we actually use the SINTRA as a screen surface ?

Thanks for your help.


John

1/4" should be more than sufficient, and if you can leave a 2" border of Sintra on all sides, simply shooting screws or Finish nails through the sintra and into the wall is a fast, easy and secure way to hang the Screen assembly. Then just cover the Sintra border with Trim.

I'd suggest using either Re-Positional Contact Cement or even just good 'ol Liquid Nalis (slow dry type) trowed out as smoothly as one would also do with trowel-able Laminate adhesive. For that matter, the Trowel-able Laminate adhesive will also work, but I've seen posts where that stuff, while it's more than secure enough at bonding when used for a Horizontal sheet that never get's flexed, it has popped loose under any degree of bending.

This last issue can also be mitigated by using 1/2" Sintra, but that thickness raises the price by about 30%.


It works pretty good actually, at least along the same lines of the original Parkland Plastic, of which both were very similar in make-up.

Your post caught me just getting ready to go hit the BIG surf here on Maui. With any luck, I might live to come back and see your posted reply.

Thanks as always!

"Hang ten & all that" Hope you have a wonderful trip.

First off I want to thank everyone here at AVS forums for the huge amount of advice and information available here.

I recently purchased an Epson 6100 direct from Epson at a fantastic price. My old screen is 76" standard ratio I had for an old 480p infocus projector and it just wont do! Ive done alot of reading and theres some great ideas for a DIY screen.
I kind of settled on a laminate because I want lightweight and low skill requirement. Ill be using it in my living room so a 4x8 will work the best. I will have good control over the light but there will be some ambient light. Will I be ok with the masonart DW or should I be looking for something in a more neutral gray? also as far as a substrate to assist keeping the laminate flat could I use a 4x8 thrifty white hardboard? they can be had for about $10 and are not near as heavy as MDF would be. Thanks

As posted in this thread, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post20426628, my "fix" for "humidity induced warpage" did not work

In this case quickly sharing this info with others in the avs community hopefully will help them not repeat same issue.
Larry made laminate curved screen with floating laminate method instead of fixed based on my feedback.

I've done all I could do, so my next thing for permanant solution will be to router out the lamiante and get some AT screen material and put that on.
It won't bow/buckle when the very slight warpage happens.

I'm a perfectionist, you don't notice it at all while viewing...but the AT material will fix that, plus as a bonus I'll have better acoustics in the HT also via less sound reflections.

Edit 6-28-2011
Instead of AT screen material, based on MMan recommendation I'll remove the DW laminate and replace it with 6mm sintra board, keeping the curved frame.

Has anyone tried using contact cement to glue the WA DW laminate to a frame? This thread is a beast to find info in?

My original screen cracked and tore last night when I tried to move it. So I am going to order a new piece and I think I will build a frame and I'd like to avoid drilling through the material.

I used laminate glue, the same thing used to glue laminate to countertops or wood surfaces. The guys at Lowes can grab it for you if you are uncertain. I then used a laminate roller to press it on to the frame. I made a frame (in my signature) that holds the laminate about 4 inches from the wall like it is floating, then coated the entire wall in black cotton velour.