Laminate Screen Material and Testing! - Page 94

it's is as simple as a towel soaked in warm water, perhaps with a few drops of dishwasher detergent in a bucket. that's how i wiped down dirts, finger prints, etc. on my laminate screen.

nothing more!

one thing that can be said of the laminate with certainty is that it had been TESTED, MEASURED, and PERFORMED with exceptional results.

all else still lack data, or at least i have yet to see any published measurements.

Thanks

PB, you seem to be using a rather broad paintbrush to try to disparage DW for some reason.

1) 80/20 Quickframe frame. Stick laminate to frame with double sided carpet tape. Trim with router laminate bit. Screw Hangman to frame and wall. Done. Skills we mostly learned in kindergarten. ;-)

2 & 5) I recently ordered enough QuickFrame from 80/20's eBay store to build a 100" 16:9 screen (probably even a bit larger) for ~$40 delivered. The last 4'x8' sheet of DW I ordered through Lowe's was under $80. I'd say $120 is close enough to your $100 mark to call these criteria satisfied.

3) Given.

4) One has to use proper care in assembly/transport just as you would with any medium. Once installed, it's way more durable than a screen needs to be for the purpose of reflecting light.

As Smokarz keeps asking, we'd love to see as much testing data for these other hang-n-shoot options as has been done for DW. I checked HTS, but there were only some real basic measurements for Sintra/etc., certainly nothing comparable to the rigor that DW has been subjected to.

Regarding availability, I had to special order Gatorboard from somewhere in Virginia when I tried that option 10 years ago. Can't imagine Sintra, etc. will be any easier to find. Wilmington's not huge, but it's not exactly small either. Not to mention the issues of transporting a 4'x8' or larger sheet of rigid material for those without access to a suitably sized vehicle. An 80/20 and DW solution can be transported in pretty much every car on the road.

-Brent

I think mechman did a complete measurement write up on Sintra, Gatorfoam, etc. He never took gain readings though.

I found Gatorfoam to be the one with the least amount of sheen. Sintra was maybe acceptable. The biggest problem is the light leakage, if you aren't painting. It almost looked like a rear pro screen.

On transport, you are correct. I put Gatorfoam in my van and scuffed up the sides getting it out. It wasn't a big deal, but not everyone owns a van.

I'll be starting to make my own Wilsonart Laminate screen soon, but have a question about drilling holes for the screws to attach to my frame.

What drill bit should I be using? How do I drill the laminate without breaking it? Should I put in on a certain surface to drill? If I lay the laminate on something elevated so I can drill a hole through it, won't it bend the laminate or cause waves?

Sorry for these elementary questions, just don't want to break the Laminate.


Ray

EDIT: Also, I'd like to use velcro to help me with masking the screen. Is Velcro light reflective? If I wouldn't have my masking on, would I be able to see the velcro reflecting anything I watch?

disparage? no, not at all. i've simply highlighted the needs vs the available substrates for hang and shoot viewing... and gave an honest opinion based on known factual information.

as for the 80/20 quickframe and routing... just like picking up a spray gun... most people will shy away from your solution... good as it is. and while it's a kindergarden skill for you... use of a router is a college skill for others.

as for the $100 cost criteria... that's not my choosing... it's the survey for this thread.

as for the testing data... i very much respect the testing and opinions of UMR for WA as a projection screen. it's true he has not tested the other diy materials.

availability is definite in favor of laminate... but only that sintra/komatex can't be found at the big box stores. and dakoramine is only at menards, but not at lowes of home depot.

also it's the only non textile option above 5x10.

as for transportability... sintra/komatex are just as easy to transport in a SUV. dakoramine is flexible as well.

I was nervous about cracking the laminate too, but found that it was more flexible and forgiving than i thought. I laid the laminate flat on the ground and tucked a long 1x4 under the edge to drill my mounting holes with a standard drill bit. As for waves, I think that they are caused by tightening the screws too tight when mounting, not from bending the laminate (but i could be wrong).


. Velcro is used to attach trim that is covered with black velvet for the border. I'm not familiar with velcro used as a mask or border.

For masking I thought that I would attach magnets to the back of the laminate and then use those to attach the masking panels. I haven't tried it yet so I don't know if the magnets will work through the laminate but that way you'd have nothing visible on the screen when the masking panels aren't in place.

Thanks!

And regards to the Velcro. I'd stick some Velcro on my "main" frame, make some masking frames, cover them with Velvet, and than stick them on to the Velcro, so I have an easily removable frame. My question is whether the actual velcro (which will be visible if not being used to stick the masking frame on) reflects light or not. In other words, I'd stick my masking frame OVER my old frame and attach it via Velcro. Not sure how good it'll look but we will see in a few weeks, once I get the material in.

@aaustin

I have heard of the magnet usage too, but don't understand how to attach magnets to the rear of the Laminate. Would we have to glue it on or what?


Ray

I had a local laminate fabricating shop make my screen for me, and they only charged me $40 labor. Great deal. Buying the glue and misc. supplies would probably cost me at least that. They glued the laminate to 1/2" MDF, cut it to final size, and glued a "backer laminate" to backside(which eliminates bowing or warping as it dries). All I had to do was glue and screw french cleats to the rear to hang it.

that's great. DIY couldn't get any easier than that.

which laminate did you get? DW or FG?

screen size?

and don't forget to put up some pics.

When drilling drill from the back side of the laminate (less splintering). When screwing to frame use broad washers (1" diameter at lest) to avoid "divoting" from the screw head (which will make the screen appear wavy. Also, make sure your sticks (frame wood) are straight. . .

Designer White, matte finish, 106" diagonal. I don't know how to post a pic. Sorry. All you'd see is a white screen on the wall anyway.

I just picked up my D354-60 (Make sure to mention the -60). 5x10 feet.


I bought it at an actual Wilsonart warehouse in Hicksville NY (Long Island). They had it in stock. No wait times, no delivery fees. Excellent. Use their websites location finder, there may be a WIlsonhouse outlet near by you.

I have a little question though...


Would it be ok so just Velcro the screen on to my wall and NOT on a frame? What exactly is the main purpose of a Frame anyways, other than being able to remove and replace the frame anywhere you want. I don't see me moving my Screen anytime soon, so why not just tape it to the wall?

I would use Velvet Curtains on the left and right to cover up excess Laminate and therefore won't even need to cut it in size. It won't look as pretty as some of you guys DIY but it would do the same job, no?


Ray

I don't see how you would avoid having ripples, but I think some guys have done what you're suggesting.

the purpose of the frame is to support the middle of the screen. all of the issues around framing concern keeping the screen even across the entire viewing surface. the back surface area that is not attached to anything will bow and sag away from the points where the screen is attached (to a wall or a frame or a substrate). Many of the solutions call for gluing the back surface evenly across a substrate or attaching it in a grid of a frame. My approach was to hang it from the top and secure the perimeter with velcro. it bows out a little but it's not noticeable.


i personally would not recommend vinyl - too shiny. you should look at something that absorbs light

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say Vinyl. I meant Velvet, my apologies.

Those Neodymium magnets are very powerful.

I used them for my screen manual masks, and also for my IB subwoofer grille cover .
Yes, they grip very strongly thru laminate.

If you look in the links above (underlined), you will see the magnets traditionally are embedded in backer material via simple drill hole, and epoxied in place.
I've not seen people epoxy then in "free space" to laminate itself, that might work, assuming you did it in 2 steps.
Step 1 with tape to hold the magnets and epoxy it on the sides.
Step 2 remove tape, and further encapsulate the magnet with epoxy.

Have fun!

Thanks for the Links, but this is how I attached mine last night.

Sorry I didn't take any pictures but it's very self explanatory.

1st.) I bought 15 feet of Industrial Strength Velcro from here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...02_i00_details

2nd) I measured how many vertical length Velcro Pieces I needed to place throughout the Screen.

In my Case I decided to cut 4 pieced with the length of about 20 - 25 inches each.

Then, I placed them vertically across the entire screen. I am using my entire 5 x 10 ft. screen so what I did is, I taped the Velcro from the top most position of my screen, vertically down. That way the top of the screen won't sag down.

Then I cut smaller pieces with the remaining Velcro I had and taped them across the bottom of my screen and one piece directly in the "belly" of the screen, which supposedly is the part that likes to swell.

3rd) I placed all the appropriate size cut of the "other side" of the Velcro and placed them on top of the currently placed Velcro on my Screen. In other words, I matched the 2 Velcro (Male and Female) pieces on top of each other. After that I massaged the pieces with a bit of pressure to make sure they bond right.

4th) With the help of 2 people, I removed the tape covers of the Velcro, lifted the Screen and carefully placed it upon the Wall. This is the crucial part, you want to make sure you do it right the first time. Don't push it against the Wall just to realize it's crooked. That's why you want that 3rd person (You) too look from afar and make sure it's straight.

5th) Push the screen firmly onto the wall and massage the screen all around to be sure it bonds.

6th) Enjoy


Things to consider: The 15 feet I bought seems to be enough, but if you truly want to be sure, buy longer Velcro or multiple orders. Also, the more Velcro you use, the harder it will be to remove the Screen if you ever desire to do so. At some point it will stick to firmly, that you may brake the screen if you try to remove it. If you don't see yourself removing it for a few years, just buy 30 ft. Of Velcro and tape it like a Champ.

My basement Wall had some kind of residue "powder" on it from when we had the Basement finished about 4 years ago. Make sure you wipe it ALL clean or the glue won't stick.


My Screen sits flush against the Wall. I am not using any Frame. Sure, it's not as 100% flush as it would be on a Frame but it's not affecting the picture AT ALL. I don't see any waves or any distortions of the picture WHATSOEVER.


Good luck,

pictures will be uploaded later today.


Ray

Here is my DW screen cost me around 200 bucks total and I love it. Sorry about the dark Picture just put in dimming lights in the room and forgot I couldn't use CFL's. Screen looks great. I'm really happy with it. It's a 120inch screen.

What Do able screen options do I have in the kc,mo area. I'm not sure what to look for something a 4x8 or anything cheap but not sure where to go. I did check a few HD with no luck from them. Maybe someone can point me in the right place.

Looks great! What did you mount it on?

Thanks, I built the frame out of base board and stapled the DW to the frame After I had wraped the frame. Then cut some 45's in 2 pices of wood to use to for hangers. Worked just fine. It's not the most stable thing off the wall like a big pice of poster board but on the wall it looks great and know one knows that back of it is butt ugly lol. I can take some better picture's if any one wants one.

I don't think Do-Able is available around KC. Best and least expensive option for a hang and shoot may be the melamine available from Menards. It's a 1/4" x 49" x 97" sheet that sells for around $18.99 (model: MEL1_449HardRockMaple SKU: 1361896).

Unfortunately, the closest Menards are in St. Joe and Sedalia -- though I thought one was also going in Independence and/or Olathe soon.

A few comments on the questionaire.

I know that that some of the questions are for a novice but I think in order to understand what a screen does one should try and understand the basic differences in some of the screen to match their requirements. Too often in here I see from "OTHER" posters that their screen solution is everything to everybody. Making claims that are so far fetched and whenever someone asks to test or provide data the recipe is to complain to the moderators to have the posts removed or have the person whipped.

But to get on track to the questionaire.. You have some subjective items on the list of questions that some people will gravitate to that attempts to maximize their screen formula in the case where someone may have a vested interest because they make the thing for money. Vagaries will exist for this reason in any event. But the bottom line is who cares what the response to the questions are when a person wants a solution they want it for the reasons that address their room and a piece of the projection system.

To this end I would suggest that it makes sense to list the diy screens on a basis of their quantitative qualities. Also I like the fact that some of the data is from actual tests. One has to be careful and I am not going to point a finger but will cite an example. I had one customer that had an xrite dp60 that he used for work and he went to his screen and took some readings. He thought since the data was relevant to rgb reading that the shot taken of the screen was relevant. In fact it is not. You have to take readings correctly relevant for video. So be careful when the data comes in because the readings that this individual had although appeared to be neutral were in fact not neutral at all. You will stall your progress with the wrong data.

I don't think of screens on the basis of gain. When there are criteria that are not being met by the total projection system by whatever shortfall exists I need to modify my desire for a completely neutral screen. In every circumstance with some vagary I introduce to the purest form of reflected image I get some unwanted aberations, noise, color shifting, uniformity, hotspotting, and it goes on and on. The iterations are endless and it is kind of a feckless exercise to try and pigeon hole any ones attributes to everyone. Even a bat cave utilizes different projectors and desired content for everyone will also have an impact.

If someone asks I want something as inexpensive as possible. I think that if we can tick off as long as it overcomes all my shortcomings in the system you will get 100 percent response. On its own the question is redundant because why would someone pick an alternative to this question.

The most common issues people have outside of being ideal is to have the screen provide some solutions due to the deficiencies in their room. Now I have seen enough in here to know that some are stating that light in the room is not a deficiency but I am not going to address nonsense.

I need to speak to what the deficiency is... if I have ambient light in the room I need to know what that light is doing to affect my image. Of course the first thing to look at is what are all the aberations and distortions that are being caused by this light. The first thing being whats the cost of eliminating the light of a window as an example. I can easily have 100s of options to just cover it up and eliminate some, most, or all of it. Individuals circumstances with just this one item are all over the map.

With some of the high contrast projectors some people find it actually now too difficult to watch because of the intensity of the image. Not all but definitely some do. Different strokes for different folks. In these cases one has to work out balance maybe for ancillary lighting that comes to some balance. Some watch in the daytime while others do not. Some have multi purpose rooms where they have game rooms. Some people can get directionality and if the geometry is set up properly they can eliminate the uniformity issues and hotspotting with say a retroreflective screen.

So directionality comes into play to resolve a number of issues and I would be thinking in turms of what properties of directionality do you need specific to the issue at hand. It may be that in a multipurpose room you live in an apartment and cannot paint the white walls or ceiling and the ambient light from that scenerio is going to cause unwanted light and how you reject it or redirect it or solutions to absorb it are all on the table and there is a way to go forward to minimize the constraint. But again we are all so unique and different for the most part that trying to pigeon hole it I think gets people wondering in circles.

Not all directional screens have the same vagaries involved in their use. Some have varying veiwing cones and the drop of light and the color imbalance is all different.

So think about what your issue is head on and try and resolve it without looking at gain for instance. You are going to be better off I believe thinking in terms of ..

I have these issues with my projection system. ..

***** windows daytime
******backlighting
********multipurpose room
**********projector doesnt have enough horsepower after the lamp wears in to get me the foot lamberts I like for the size I desire.

What do I need the light reflecting off the screen to do to get me the results I desire? How should I deal with the light that is going to reflect back onto the sceen? How should I deal with the light coming into the room?

Things can be done in the room to minimize the effects of light you do not want on your screen. The solution to the wif factor is sometimes easy. Just offer to eliminate the bad effects of the unwanted light for a period of say a month or two months. You can get creative around the screen and once its done I have yet to see a wif want it changed back.

In terms of I want a white screen.. there is non white screens that have their attributes to reject light only or to add contrast or other shortcoming in the system.

The meaning and use of white is due to a circumstance of the projection system and not for a desire for white. So to verbalize I want a white screen has a kind of unilateral type of response that doesnt seem to match an across the board reality. You are doing DIY and lets say your room is very dark but you have some color in your room that is going to cause the screen to reflect a color back onto the screen you do not want. Best is to know how the light color will affect the screen when reflected. You are doing DIY afterall and can correct for these things and in that respect have an advantage. A person may simply like an increase in black level and is willing to sacrifice whites to attain it.

Effects on contrast is a big factor. If I have a hit on the contrast I might as well buy a cheaper projector. Real ansi contrast is one of the biggest determining factors affecting the price of home theater projectors. Not the contrast that manufacturers print but the real measured contrast that gives image depth and dimension. So know what you are doing to affect the contrast. If you are just making an image brighter but losing contrast it may not be the affect you are looking for. I see guys buying rather expensive projectors with great contrast and then lose it with a bad screen choice.

I offered to test some screens out and the post got deleted. Someone didnt like the idea of having facts I guess. You want measurements that relate to video. Not the rgb values of an object.

I like the fact that this thread wants real facts and data. I understand there is budgetary constraints but maybe just some costs relevant to making a size screen including the frame. Over half the costs of a manufactured screen is in the frame and when I built screens it was well over 50% for the frame. I definitely would categorize the frame type as an important element to the overall cost.

I just read your entire post and the only thing I understood was that you do not like a few "OTHER" posters on these forums. I don't know if English is your first language or not but if your goal is to help people looking for advice, you really need to make more sense.

It would also help if you stopped with the bashing and just contribute what you can.

Best regards,

Jason

I understood his post and he makes some good points.

You do bring up something I have been thinking about lately and that is the color of the theater. I have wondered how much of an effect a non-neutral color on the walls would have on the screen.

I will try this again. Jherring, I think mandarax answered your questions, but his post was deleted.

It would also help if you stopped with the bashing and just contribute what you can.

very much agreed. dis-respect, ill comments, and lack of any contribution other than to bicker and argue serves no purpose.