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Laminate Screen Material and Testing! - Page 21

post #601 of 2849
10/12/06 at 2:08pm
Thread Starter 
How bad is the hot spotting at this point? Is moving the projector position having any effect?
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post #602 of 2849
10/12/06 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmo View Post

I did that last night and still got hot spotting when viewing from the couch. The projector is in "desk" mode which throws the image up. In ceiling mode it throws the image down. Because I have it so high up in desk mode I might as well flip it over and run it in ceiling mode to see if there is a difference. Free to try, nothing to lose. If it doesn't fix the hotspotting, I didn't waste $$ on a ceiling mount.

How much higher did you mount the projector? Was the angle of the lens and your head at least equal to the angle when you were sitting on the floor? Yeah, you need to invert the projector (ceiling mode).
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post #603 of 2849
10/12/06 at 3:30pm
Ok, so here is a little sketch of my setup last night. The numbers are pretty rough estimates, but the relationships between the objects are actually pretty close to my awesome drawing. I'm 6'1" and the projector was about brow level to me. The top of the projector FRAME is about brow level to me. The thing is that the projector is in "desk" mode right now so i have to shift the lens way down to get on the screen.

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post #604 of 2849
10/12/06 at 4:12pm
I am thinking that you may be able to sand the laminate to reduce some of the gloss. I sanded a sample piece with 800 grit and it looks like it should work.

Ericglo
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post #605 of 2849
10/12/06 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmo View Post

Ok, so here is a little sketch of my setup last night. The numbers are pretty rough estimates, but the relationships between the objects are actually pretty close to my awesome drawing. I'm 6'1" and the projector was about brow level to me. The top of the projector FRAME is about brow level to me. The thing is that the projector is in "desk" mode right now so i have to shift the lens way down to get on the screen.



Definitely, your projector is too close to the height of your head. Can you calculate how high your head is from the floor when you're on the sofa and when you're on the floor? That difference is how much you have to raise the projector and the higher the better.
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post #606 of 2849
10/12/06 at 4:43pm
Thread Starter 
The projector should be in ceiling mode too
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post #607 of 2849
10/12/06 at 4:51pm
Thread Starter 
The projector would obviously have to be flipped (I think I at least know that much )...then the throw would be right without having to do a lens shift. I'm not saying that is going to fix the positioning and hot spotting but it would be more of a normal setup.
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post #608 of 2849
10/12/06 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

If he puts it in ceiling mode the image will be up-side-down!

Before sanding the surface try scrubbing the hell out of it with abrasive cleanser like Comet.


I'd change the projector mode to ceiling, raise it and turn it upside down before messing around with the screen. Raising the projector should cut down on the hotspotting.
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post #609 of 2849
10/12/06 at 5:10pm
My first screen is going to be from home depot. 60 x 120" designer Wh for 101.65
Should be here about now, Today my black ribbon arrived from Mystic Alley, looks
like great stuff and not hard to work with. Going to unroll this stuff on the wall and
as soon as my projector gets here, I'll set up and see what size screen i will make.
well just wanted to thank you all, I've heard you should get your projector first than see what size screen you need. But at this price and 5foot by 10 foot I didn't
think i could go wrong, Thanks!!!
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post #610 of 2849
10/12/06 at 5:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmo View Post

Ok, so here is a little sketch of my setup last night. The numbers are pretty rough estimates, but the relationships between the objects are actually pretty close to my awesome drawing. I'm 6'1" and the projector was about brow level to me. The top of the projector FRAME is about brow level to me. The thing is that the projector is in "desk" mode right now so i have to shift the lens way down to get on the screen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FremontRich View Post

I'd change the projector mode to ceiling, raise it and turn it upside down before messing around with the screen. Raising the projector should cut down on the hotspotting.

I agree... That's a LOT of shift in the diagram above and not a normal intended use for the projector.

The way the projector is now without any lens shift it would look like this in ceiling mode and not flipped:

The amount of lens offshift nickmo has it looks like the throw of a ceiling mounted projector, so why not flip it and go to ceiling mode anway if that's basically what he's trying to do by shifting the image.

He would be better off raising the screen and the projector a little , flip it (the projector obviously lol) and let the projector do the work instead of forcing the shift. Nickmo already said if he sits on the floor there is no hot spotting, so I wouldn't mess around with the sheen just yet if at all... plus it would take a lot of Comet to knock it down anyway, this is kitchen countertop material and made to withstand years of cleaning with cleansers like that...

Raising the screen a little will also get it further away from the light reflecting off the cabinet finish. (Granted that's not the main problem, but it sure won't hurt) Since he said on the for it's not a problem, in my opinion the screen isn't the issue but like said, it's the setup. That's a good thing because that can easily be fixed

He'll have to calculate how much lower he is when sitting on the floor, and that's how much higher things have to go... my guess is 10", a foot max...

FremontRich and I keep saying the same exact thing... we must be on the same brain wave lengths today lol
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post #611 of 2849
10/12/06 at 5:35pm
Nickmo,
Are you the only one having problems with hotspotting?

I posted some time back that I had found significant differences in the shine on some 1"x 3" Fashion Gray samples. I glued 9 samples to a white art board and projected on them, 3 were clearly brighter than the other six. Yes the samples were in the center of my screen.

I know you are using DW, but the point is that everything manufactured has tolerances and laminate is probably no exception. I think you may have a piece that is on the shiney side of the Wilsonart tolerance for DW.

As has been suggested the only cure may be to abrade the surface to dull it a bit.

Rich
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post #612 of 2849
10/12/06 at 6:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richum View Post

Nickmo,
Are you the only one having problems with hotspotting?

I posted some time back that I had found significant differences in the shine on some 1"x 3" Fashion Gray samples. I glued 9 samples to a white art board and projected on them, 3 were clearly brighter than the other six. Yes the samples were in the center of my screen.

I know you are using DW, but the point is that everything manufactured has tolerances and laminate is probably no exception. I think you may have a piece that is on the shiney side of the Wilsonart tolerance for DW.

As has been suggested the only cure may be to abrade the surface to dull it a bit.

Rich

I actually did contact them and Formica about this, I guess I forgot to post what they said. I'll dig up their tolerance levels for when they QA a new lot. It is pretty low, but it could be enough to slightly change the color value. I'm not so sure it would be enough to radically change the color for use as a screen. I'm sure projectors can more than compensate for that. Who knows though, maybe it does. One of the guys with a spectro and does testing can probably answer that once I find those tolerance levels again...

Also, keep in mind that house paints can be different from one gallon to the next. It's usually very slight though, but different lots can be off... flooring, paneling, paints, laminates... I've always been told when starting a project to buy enough at once and check the lot numbers to make sure they are the same. I actually did get bit by this when we lived in VA. I ran out of floor tiles and the new box I got was different enough that you could see exactly where I ran out... So yeah this is something to look at and see if it's going to be an issue.
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post #613 of 2849
10/12/06 at 7:18pm
Now I'm confused. Is Nickmo using Designer White or Fashion Gray?
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post #614 of 2849
10/12/06 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 
Fashion Grey
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post #615 of 2849
10/12/06 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55 View Post

Now I'm confused. Is Nickmo using Designer White or Fashion Gray?

Yes I made the mistake of thinking he was using DW when in fact it is Fashion Grey, but that just makes my comments on the Fashion Grey samples I viewed all the more relevant.
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post #616 of 2849
10/12/06 at 8:02pm
First:
When seated, my head is 4' above the floor.
When sitting on the floor, my head is 1.5' from the floor.
That is a 2.5' difference. The projector would have to be mounted flush with the ceiling if I were going to compensate by raising it proportionally to the drop in seating height (not happening).

Settings:
Screen Size: 37"x66", 75"diag
Throw: 14'
Mode: Ceiling, projector upside down
Height of projector: 61"
Height of top edge of screen (not frame): 64"
Height of bottom edge of screen: 27"


Brightness: +11, lowest level that still shows the "2% above black" signal in DVE.
Contrast: -6, same principle as above.
other settings slightly changed for color...



Pictures taken 10' from screen, 3' 6" above floor, dead center left to right, NO flash. The projector was situated as described above. The two pictures with the white background are worst case scenario, but they do well to show the hotspotting. The movie shot is my best attempt at getting a picture that represents what I am actually seeing, except it is actually in focus and really sharp and the whites aren't all blown out. Basically the photo does a terrible job at conveying what I actually see. It is NOT photoshopped or modified in any way. I use the newest version of PowerDVD.





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post #617 of 2849
10/12/06 at 8:05pm
Thread Starter 
Their specs are both the same, which is a unit of 1.0 DE would be absolutely unacceptable, and that a delta of .50 overall was the limit of acceptability, and even that was pushing it.

Prof does that make sense to you and would a variance of .5 alter the color characteristics enough to render a lot useless? I'm thinking it wouldn't...
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post #618 of 2849
10/12/06 at 11:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmo View Post

First:
When seated, my head is 4' above the floor.
When sitting on the floor, my head is 1.5' from the floor.
That is a 2.5' difference. The projector would have to be mounted flush with the ceiling if I were going to compensate by raising it proportionally to the drop in seating height (not happening).

Settings:
Screen Size: 37"x66", 75"diag
Throw: 14'
Mode: Ceiling, projector upside down
Height of projector: 61"
Height of top edge of screen (not frame): 64"
Height of bottom edge of screen: 27"


Brightness: +11, lowest level that still shows the "2% above black" signal in DVE.
Contrast: -6, same principle as above.
other settings slightly changed for color...



Pictures taken 10' from screen, 3' 6" above floor, dead center left to right, NO flash. The projector was situated as described above. The two pictures with the white background are worst case scenario, but they do well to show the hotspotting. The movie shot is my best attempt at getting a picture that represents what I am actually seeing, except it is actually in focus and really sharp and the whites aren't all blown out. Basically the photo does a terrible job at conveying what I actually see. It is NOT photoshopped or modified in any way. I use the newest version of PowerDVD.


Nickmo:

How high is your ceiling?

Another issue I see is that your screen is quite small which could exacerbate the hotspotting since you're squeezing all those lumens into a smaller screen.
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post #619 of 2849
10/13/06 at 6:39am
Thread Starter 
Well I'll say it before anyone else does... those are some pretty awful looking screenies, not the hot spotting but the muddy look to the image and colors. I am very familiar with this movie though and it was shot very dark and with a blue slant to give that 'other worldly' feeling. (Another movie to stay away from as a screen shot is Three Kings, they actually changed film stock as the movie progressed to give the movie a feeling of change for the various acts, so an image from the beginning of the movie is going to look wildly different from one towards the middle or end)

I spoke to Tiddler awhile back and was joking about why T2 wasn't up as screenies. When it came out it was more or less the definitive DVD with it's THX calibrator and tons of special features. (There have actually been college universities that have taught courses based on the special features, they literally are a film making 101 lesson. Blade Runner is also talked about and used in film schools.) Anyway, Tiddler put a smile on my face by throwing some T2 screenies up. He found some very interesting scenes... one being when they are in the mental institute. The whites in those scenes are blinding. If you can watch them without hot spotting so bad it burns your retinas out, nothing you can throw at your projector and screen will hot spot! Also the opening explosion sequence have vivid colors along with lots and lots of blacks. I'm just saying Under World was a fun romp of a movie, but the way it was filmed doesn't make for a good judge of a screen, especially one that is having some problems like nickmo's. Once we all help nickmo get this straightened out, then I'd like to see this exact same screenie as a comparison to how it is now and what it looks like when everything is working right.

Great work nickmo. I actually see this as a positive thing. I know for me personally I tend to learn much more when things go wrong than if everything was perfect with no issues. We'll get you fixed and along the way come up with some extremely valuable information for everyone else!
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post #620 of 2849
10/13/06 at 9:33am
Thread Starter 
Nickmo have you tried different gama settings along with adjusting the brightness and contrast settings?
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post #621 of 2849
10/13/06 at 12:31pm
wbassett:
I have tried reducing gamma, and I plan on playing around with it over the weekend.

I am also going to move things around a bit. If I move the PJ as close as possible to above the seating area, I will be able to use zoom to fit the image to the screen. It will also change the angle between the PJ, the screen and me. It'll be at about 10' from the screen.

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post #622 of 2849
10/13/06 at 1:49pm
I think that new set up will be worse because the problem here is that you have way too many lumens on such a small screen surface. Moving the projecter even closer will make everything brighter! It'll hotspot even more in my opinion. Unless of coarse you go with some extreme angles, but it looks like that bookshelf idea is just slightly above viewers heads.

I think the fix is to build a new screen, make it 100"+ and you'll be all set Or ceiling mount the pj, like previously mentioned.

I really like your frame/screen build! Would you be interested in building me one?
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post #623 of 2849
10/13/06 at 5:43pm
So the new setup is no better or worse than before. One thing I did notice is that when switching between desktop and ceiling mode the position of the image on the screen doesn't change at all, so all it is doing is inverting the image. I think I might be projecting onto too small a screen. I might try putting the projector on top of a coffee table just for fun.
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post #624 of 2849
10/13/06 at 11:47pm
Thread Starter 
Okay... guys next time your wife goes shopping for groceries, have her drop you off at Home Depot or Lowes. That's what I did tonight!

Seeing that she was gone and I had no wheels I literally went up and down every isle. Clarence made a suggestion of rare earth magnets for a simple masking system, and I had an idea on that suggestion for rigging test panels and full size sheets.

I found the magnets, and tested them with a piece of sample laminate and Clarence really has a great idea! Unlike other screen materials that are too thick for a magnet to work through the sheet, laminate is definitely thin enough. My problem was though if I put magnets on the back of the test panels they would protrude an 1/8-1/4 inch from the main screen. That could make comparison shots look a little odd. I wanted the panels to be as flush as possible to the main screen, so I needed a super flat magnet, and that wasn't going to happen... I started looking for a very thin piece of metal. I found galvanized duct hangers back in the heating isle. They are the same thickness as the laminate sample and worked like a champ! What I am going to do for my permanent setup is attach magnets to the back of the main screen so I can put up two test panels (DW will be the third spot as a baseline) or I could put up a full sheet if I wanted. ALSO I can still use the magnets for a manual masking system like Clarence suggested! My plan for the test panels is just to simply duct tape the metal straps to the back. That way I can reuse them and the duct tape would prevent any potential scratches or marring of the main screen. I don't think that would really be an issue, but I don't want to take any chances, some of the galvanized straps are like razors!

I'm getting my permanent screen setup just about done so I should be able to start top coat testing very soon! What's taking so long is I am working on building a Bose VCS-10 center channel speaker into the bottom border, so I have to plan this one out a little. I'll probably take the pegboard and build a frame on the back side to bring the whole thing out from the wall a little since the VCS-10 is 6" deep. That way it will be closer to being flush with the black trim border.

I also got some window film that reduces incoming light by 60% (it also acts as a barrier for heat loss in the winter). I'm going to kill my ambient light at the source! Well kill it as much as I can and still have a living room with some light during the day. I figure after I get home from work and early evening it should be perfect. I can already watch movies with my one room lamp on. It's approximately 20' from the screen and a 60W bulb, so when it's on there really is not much of an impact on things.

I thought about trying to tape a piece of the film to the screen, but after mulling it over and the fact it stops 60% of light it probably won't do anything but make the image super dull and dim.

I'll start getting pictures of my permanent setup going. Like I said I still have to work out the details for the center channel speaker, and I have one other twist I am going to try to incorporate...

So walk all the isles sometime and just look... there are things that are very interesting that you may not have thought about but once you see them ideas start popping.
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post #625 of 2849
10/14/06 at 1:02am
wbassett:
Maybe I can make a filter out of this light blocking film you mentioned and put it over my PJ lens. That should reduce the lumens even more. I might be able to just filter out the very center of the lens. What general aisle of HD was it in?
Hmm.....
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post #626 of 2849
10/14/06 at 6:47am
Thread Starter 
Nickmo if you want to play around with that (not sure how well it will work) but don't wast money buying anything... get some free samples. I got a bunch of film samples when I was toying with the idea of flims for screens. Like I said I'm not sure how they would work on the projector end because the ones I have are all grays. You'd want something that's clear so it doesn't distort the projector's colors. There are people on here though that are knowledgable with filters and lenses for projectors, so someone may be able to answer you better. I think between the collective efforts of everyone we'll get you fixed

I have to do my truck brakes right now, but when I get done I'll look up the links and post them.
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post #627 of 2849
10/14/06 at 7:33am
Hi Nickmo,

Where did you find your black material (velvet?) to wrap your frame?

Thanks
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post #628 of 2849
10/14/06 at 9:10am
Nickmo,
You first want to eliminate the screen as the problem. You may want to get some BOC from Joanns or somewhere that you can return it. Mount it and see if you have the problem. You might also want to take your pj to another forum members house and check it with their screen.
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post #629 of 2849
10/14/06 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by french_guy View Post

Hi Nickmo,

Where did you find your black material (velvet?) to wrap your frame?

Thanks

It's called velveteen. I got it at Joan's fabrics. The great thing about it is that it is a little stretchy, so you can get a really nice tight wrap. It is also very light absorbant.
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post #630 of 2849
10/14/06 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmo View Post

It's called velveteen. I got it at Joan's fabrics. The great thing about it is that it is a little stretchy, so you can get a really nice tight wrap. It is also very light absorbant.

Nickmo,

Do you have any reference? What was the size? I guess you buy xxx yard? What was the width, and the price/yard?
What is the reference between velvet and velveteen?
Did you think about Duvetyne Pro tape?

Thanks
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