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Laminate Screen Material and Testing! - Page 24

post #691 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by w84no1 View Post

I am almost ready to buy a 4 x 8 sheet of Wilson Art. I have a question that maybe someone here can help me with.

I have an Infocus SP 5000 LCD projector and the contrast is not exactly what I would prefer.

Should I get the Fashion Grey or should I just go with DW?

I have total light control in my (soon to be) theater.

thanks

It isn't a very bright projector so I would recommend the DW especially if you have any ambient light (a contrast ratio killer). And even in total darkness I believe the DW will reflect bettter especially with a relatively low lumens projector.

John
post #692 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma George View Post

HD just called, it's in.....I ordered it 3 days ago, Tues. and it's here on Fri....that was fast when she said 7-10 days. So it's tonight ! Keep it simple stupid...I like that idea.
If you see my gallery, I don't have trim around the screen, and wasn't planning on it, BUT I have a new idea ans your help is appreciated.

Now I'm really thinking, cause this sceen is temporary until I come with serious cash and time to finish this room (maybe after football season in the crappy winter months in Philly),
SO,
it may be beneficial to come up with a way to fit the laminate it using only trim to hold it in place, almost like a tongue and groove setup where the trim creates the groove ?
No nails, no glue, and it can easliy be removed and redesigned for a later more elaborate screen.

The screen now is a 1/4"Luaun nailed directly to 16"OC studs, and black fabric around it.
There is no drywall.
I have studs to nail the trim into across the top and bottom, unfortunately now, the one side hangs over about 1/4" from the last stud, and the other side has about 1/4" of stud to nail into.

Take down the entire screen you presently have and put up a frame with a 3/4" thickness or so with an opening equal to the size of the laminate sheet you bought (it's usually an inch larger than it's nominal size)

Put velcro as described above and stick it inside the frame. The combination of the surrounding frame and the velcro will make a nice semi-permanent screen setup that is easily removed if you change your mind about something. The mirror hangers shown above would also work although you would see them.

Don't ever use Liquid Nails at some future date. You'll have an uneven mess that will set up on you before you are done. Take Bud's advice and attach it to a substrate exactly as if you were using the material for what it is intended - a countertop. I built a 30 foot L-shaped countertop in my kitchen trimmed in Oak 25 years ago. I constructed a particle board top first then used contact cement exactly as Bud described above to attach the Formica to it and later trimmed it with natural oak then stained and varnished the oak. After major abuse over the years including setting a burning hot pot on top of it once it has never come loose in any single spot along the entire 30 feet.

I did one thing extra after I attached it. I wrapped a one foot long 2 x 8 in some indoor outdoor carpeting (stapled the edges of the carpeting to the back of the 2 x 8 after wrapping it around). Then I took a rubber mallet and went around banging down the laminate using the mallet against the back of the carpeted 2 x 8.

John
post #693 of 2849
I was up all night reading this thread from the beginning. Got to mid Sept and went to bed with dreams of a great, inexpensive, kid proof, DIY screen.
I am probably looking at an Epson 400 ceiling mounted front PJ.
Overview
720p native resolution, 16:9 wide-panel, and HDMI for True High Definition viewing
Up to 1500 ANSI lumens and 5000:1 Contrast ratio
Epson 3LCD Technology
10 bit color processing
Dynamic Eye Iris
Epson Cinema Filter
Super White technology
Noise Shaped Video
Advanced Horizontal and Vertical Sharpness Adjustment
Customized Gamma Adjustment
6-axis Color Adjustment
Auto Aspect Ratio
Because the term "light cannon" has been used in some modes, I didn't know if the DW was too much gain. It is a basement with one double window on the left just in front of the seating area and full lite (15 each) french doors in the rear left corner. The wall that has the windows and door faces North-NorthEast and I will do my best to black them out. I do want the screen to be viewable with lights on for Panther Football games / SuperBowl and TarHeel basketball games, and thought a grey variant might not let me.
I have not made it through the last few pages yet and have a very busy day, did a translucent coating ever get decided on?
To Prof, Eric, Clarence (my best friend on the face of the planet's name is Clarence) and wb, dave and others, I am soooo grateful for the work you have done to justify this material. That effort has given me the confidence to know I am not "settling" on a material for cost. I too had considered a tabbed, electric so I could get it out of the way of the kids (8,9, & 10 yrs old).
THANK YOU!
post #694 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by craftech View Post

Gonealong,

I can't remember if you said whether or not you painted the back of the Parkland Sheet. It makes a BIG difference if you don't have a really bright projector. I have a 3000 lumen projector and I still painted the back with silver paint (any color will do). There was a noticeable improvement.

However, the nice thing about the melamine sheet is that it is truly opaque and will not require that the back be painted to make it such as with the Parkland vinyl, but if you haven't already tried it, paint the back of the Parkland before you tackle the next screen project.

John

My Parkland is backed by durotherm, but it is not painted on the back. I pained my leftover 11" of Parkland black on the back and hung it over my screen. No discernable difference at all IMO. Wife agreed.

Should I have painted it something besides black?

GL
post #695 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonelong View Post

My Parkland is backed by durotherm, but it is not painted on the back. I pained my leftover 11" of Parkland black on the back and hung it over my screen. No discernable difference at all IMO. Wife agreed.

Should I have painted it something besides black?

GL


Isn't the Parkland material translucent? I would think black is the worst color to paint since it wouldn't reflect anything back to the viewer because black will absorb all light. The principle of a front projector system is to reflect the image back to the viewer. What is the color of your durotherm?
post #696 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stubeeef View Post

I was up all night reading this thread from the beginning. Got to mid Sept and went to bed with dreams of a great, inexpensive, kid proof, DIY screen.
I am probably looking at an Epson 400.
Overview
720p native resolution, 16:9 wide-panel, and HDMI for True High Definition viewing
Up to 1500 ANSI lumens and 5000:1 Contrast ratio
Epson 3LCD Technology
10 bit color processing
Dynamic Eye Iris
Epson Cinema Filter
Super White technology
Noise Shaped Video
Advanced Horizontal and Vertical Sharpness Adjustment
Customized Gamma Adjustment
6-axis Color Adjustment
Auto Aspect Ratio
Because the term "light cannon" has been used in some modes, I didn't know if the DW was too much gain. It is a basement with one double window on the left just in front of the seating area and full lite (15 each) french doors in the rear left corner. The wall faces North-NorthEast and I will do my best to black them out. I do want it to be viewable with lights on for Panther Football games / SuperBowl and TarHeel basketball games.
I have not made it through the last few pages yet and have a very busy day, did a translucent coating ever get decided on?
To Prof, Eric, Clarence (my best friend on the face of the planet's name is Clarence) and wb, dave and others, I am soooo grateful for the work you have done to justify this material. That effort has given my the confidence to know I am not "settling" on a material for cost. I too had considered a tabbed, electric so I could get it out of the way of the kids (8,9, & 10 yrs old).
THANK YOU!

Welcome to the laminate thread stubeeef

My projector has 1700 lumens, and I'm fine. I had to back off the brightness some as compared to the painted gray screen I used to have but that was expected.

So far I have used the bare wall that was painted a cream/off white (the worse), I shot a few movies on just the Killzit primer for awhile, and that really surprised me how nice the image looked. Then again that was the first comparison from the plain wall so anything would have looked better. The next screen was a Behr Silver Screen painted screen. Blacks were incredible, but I experienced a bad color shift and blue push. I was able to get it adjusted, but it ended up being a compromise and the image was watchable but definitely not optimal. In my particular case the Killzit primer actually looked better. Now I want to note that there are others that use Silver Screen and love it, so I'm not telling people not to use it... just keep in mind some projectors seem to work better with it than others. Next was a Behr Ultra Pure White painted screen. This one was the brightest and most vivid screen so far, edging out Killzit. Colors were bright and clean... yellow was yellow, white was white...

I then put up a sheet of Designer White. First thing I noticed was I was backing the brightness off again, there was an obvious gain over all the other screens I had tried previously. Once I got things adjusted, the image quality was incredible and much better than anything I had used so far. I was really pleased to see this because it corresponded with the gain and color tests that were done, so at that point I was happy to see that the data really did back up the claims and we were no longer guessing about color characteristics and perceived gain... Since then more and more people are starting to get actual data and testing done on various DIY methods and I really think that is adding to the quality of DIY overall and it makes it easier for people to decide on one method over another.

If Designer White has too much gain and hot spots for you, most likely a 1.3 gain commercial screen would too, so in that respect you didn't spend several hundred on a commercial screen to find that out I think you would be fine with it and 1500 lumens. Anyone with 2000+ lumens may start running into some hot spotting.

I'm not really sure what is considered a 'light cannon', that changes from person to person from what I've seen. I can say that my projector is a business model projector and they are made with a slightly different purpose... that being for sharp crisp presentations and colors with high volumes of light output from the projector, enough to work with some lighting on in the conference/training room. The image quality for movies is quite good, but I know a projector that is made for home theater use will look even better so I can't wait until I upgrade projectors.

I want to do a little more checking on the differences... for instance it dawned on me that business projectors are used in rooms with florescent lighting a lot of times. Perhaps my projector's light output is designed for that light spectrum instead of incandescent lighting. That could explain why my projector as well as some others shows more of a push with some DIY methods more than other projectors. That's a bit off topic for in here, but it does kind of explain some of the characteristics I am seeing with mine.

All in all I really do think that for people that have the conditions where they can use a white screen, Designer White and Do-able are outstanding options. Each fills a niche as far as screen sizes, and both are easy to work with. I do give laminate a slight edge since it is lighter, but at under $20 for a sheet of Do-able, if you can get it in your area and want a screen that works with a 4x8 sheet of material, check into Do-able. If you want a larger matte white screen or Do-able isn't available, then Designer White is what I would recommend.

I see from the poll that there is almost an equal amount of people that want a screen that works better in ambient light as there are that want a matte white screen, so there definitely needs to be more work done with the grays, and those tests are coming
post #697 of 2849
Thanks WB, I want an HD screen that is a min of 106" and really prefer 110", so the Do-Able in a 4x8 won't do that (need 54" wide).
The Parkland maybe better, I have no idea, has that been compared? Isn't available in 5' wide?
also did anyone find a translucent coating that worked for the better? or was considered to be an improvement? A simple screen with only one non-mixed coating is well within my desire if both great quality and cheap!
You guys are amazing and appreciated, thanks so much.
post #698 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stubeeef View Post

Thanks WB, I want an HD screen that is a min of 106" and really prefer 110", so the Do-Able in a 4x8 won't do that (need 54" wide).
The Parkland maybe better, I have no idea, has that been compared? Isn't available in 5' wide?
also did anyone find a translucent coating that worked for the better? or was considered to be an improvement? A simple screen with only one non-mixed coating is well within my desire if both great quality and cheap!
You guys are amazing and appreciated, thanks so much.

Skyman has done some comparisons between Pionite laminate, Do-able, and Wilsonart Designer White. All three are comparable, and Do-able and Designer White are almost the same specs. We're still working on getting color analysis done on Pionite, and gain tests for Pionite and Formica. (Formica does have color data but no gain tests)

Laminates come in sizes all the way up to 5x12, so there are many screen options a person can go with, including a 60x80 4:3 screen. As I have mentioned numerous times the size restriction for most sheets was the genesis of this thread. Laminates were brought back to people's attention and I am really glad Clarence and Ericglo reintroduced us to them.
post #699 of 2849
Thread Starter 
There is some interesting research and testing being done with plexi that may end up being something we can use with laminates. I'm not saying it would be something everyone should run out and do, but for those wanting to raise the performance even higher this could be interesting to see how it pans out.
post #700 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by FremontRich View Post

Isn't the Parkland material translucent? I would think black is the worst color to paint since it wouldn't reflect anything back to the viewer because black will absorb all light. The principle of a front projector system is to reflect the image back to the viewer. What is the color of your durotherm?

You are probably right. I had a can of black paint, 5 minutes of time, and no plan.

GL
post #701 of 2849
Finally made it to my local HD. 4x8 DW is $50, 5x8 is $65, + $15 shipping/handling. So I can get a piece large enough for an 85x48 screen (with a few inches all around for mounting) for about $80 delivered. Not too bad.

I was looking at framing options. Trying to keep it really simple, I wondered if I could just wrap some MDF moulding in velveteen, assemble it into a frame, and screw the DW to the back of the frame? The DW would hold it rigid so the corner joints wouldn't flex, but I'm concerned the moulding might bow and produce a non-flat screen. Maybe if I just tack some 1x2 poplar against the top (make a french cleat while I'm at it) and sides? Or do I need to mount it to something stronger and tack the frame onto that?

Gary
post #702 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz View Post

Finally made it to my local HD. 4x8 DW is $50, 5x8 is $65, + $15 shipping/handling. So I can get a piece large enough for an 85x48 screen (with a few inches all around for mounting) for about $80 delivered. Not too bad.

I was looking at framing options. Trying to keep it really simple, I wondered if I could just wrap some MDF moulding in velveteen, assemble it into a frame, and screw the DW to the back of the frame? The DW would hold it rigid so the corner joints wouldn't flex, but I'm concerned the moulding might bow and produce a non-flat screen. Maybe if I just tack some 1x2 poplar against the top (make a french cleat while I'm at it) and sides? Or do I need to mount it to something stronger and tack the frame onto that?

Gary

I just wrapped 1x4 pine boards and tacked the DW on to that. Worked great
post #703 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz View Post

Finally made it to my local HD. 4x8 DW is $50, 5x8 is $65, + $15 shipping/handling. So I can get a piece large enough for an 85x48 screen (with a few inches all around for mounting) for about $80 delivered. Not too bad.
Gary

Gary-
Why would you do this when you have Do-able, 49" x 97", right here in your back yard for $15?
Don't get me wrong, DW is great stuff!-j
post #704 of 2849
Well, the last time I looked for Do-Able, I wasn't able to find anything useful. What was there was scuffed-up and dull looking. And my recollection was that Do-Able was less bright than the Parkland front side, which was no brighter than my BO. I'm looking for something with a 1.3 or so gain, and the DW does that perfectly. If/when I ever get around to this (I've been talking about building a new screen for 2 years now ), I'll either do the DW or a Pearlbrite torus.

SixKiller, that would be real easy, but I was afraid you'd get shadowing with the 1" board in front of the screen. Or did you knock off a bevelled edge so the board was thinner at the screen edge? (Actually, looking at my HT, the top edge of the screen is just about exactly even with the center of the lenses, maybe an inch or so lower. So any shadowing would be negligible.)
post #705 of 2849
Gary
There's some pics further up in this thread. Someone mitered the frame, wrapped it with velvet, attached the corners with L bracket, then stapled the laminate over the backside of the frame. As far as frame, the best choice seems to be MDF or fiberboard casing. The fiberboard of MDF will do less warping than solid wood. Plus it's cheaper and we're going to cover or paint it anyway. This casing is a rounded, beveled board. Kind of like a very simple picture frame moulding. The inside edge would be about 1/8". The outside edge about 1/2". I believe it was Mississippi Mud that mention previously the angle was important to avoid reflecting light from the overscan back at the viewer. Though with velvet, it should suck up any light. I think the beveled board just makes a classier, more finished looking frame.

I was just at Lowes and HD tonight. Need some screws for a garage cabinet. I picked up a sheet labeled Moulding Guide. Moulding Millworks (I think. The top ripped off) was the manufacturer. Here's some SKU #s for various sizes of primed fiberboard casing

1/2" x 1 1/2" 345837 This should be a good size.
1/2" x 2 1/4" HMMM!! only shows Hemlock 295514 but I saw MDF in stock. I thought this might be too large. Especially for smaller screen sizes.


The part I haven't figured out is getting the frame wrapped AND mitered. Do you wrap it first then cut? How do you avoid tearing the fabric. Do you miter, then wrap it, then put it together? How do you get the corners of the fabric even? I've seen picture frame miter boxes that actually use a blade, like a gilatine (sp?) instead of a saw. That might work.

OH! Did you see that Clarence posted over at Curt's about the Velitex ribbon? It has a plastic backing like packing tape. He said any craft glue would work with it.


Here's the post I was talking about

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8629467

MM's description about frame size and bevel is below it a couple of posts.
post #706 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz View Post

I'm looking for something with a 1.3 or so gain

At $15, with a 1.13 gain, I don't know how it's not worth a try with your CRT. -j
post #707 of 2849
Mebbe so skyman, but the time & hassle factor makes me want to do this once.

Aubrey, I looked at MDF moulding at HD the other day. It would work fine appearance-wise, but my concern was that it would warp. Which was why I asked about 1x2 poplar on the back. Maybe I should just plan to tack the frame to the wall in a few spots and call it good. It also seems to me that a 2" frame would look pretty skinny on an 85x48 screen, but maybe not.

Construction: you miter, then wrap, then assemble. Getting the velvet[een] tight and flat on the corner of the miter is probably a bit tricky but doable. (Not Do-Able. ) I think the hardest part would be fitting them tightly together while you attached the L-brackets.

I saw Clarence's tape, and it would work great for a flat application like he did. But it's too narrow for the moulding, and I think it would be hard to wrap it around the moulding so you didn't get edges showing &etc. If you're going to use moulding, I think wrapping it in velveteen is probably easiest.
post #708 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by puck16 View Post

I have a 110" screen I made with DW. I created the frame with 1x4 poplar and then used 3M high strength spray adhesive to mount the laminate to the frame. I adhered the laminate to the frame while the frame was laying on the floor. Left it to dry for two days and and then hung it on the wall using a great hanger I found at HD. It's two pieces of aluminum approx. 8-10" long with a built in level ($9 or so). One piece attaches to the wall, and the other to the frame. Much like the system used to hang kitchen cabinets. It worked great! Project was easy and everyone loves the result. Picture quality is great and my wife and I are happy knowing it'll stand up to our 19 month old son.


Do you have a pic or part # for the hanger you used? Sounds interesting.
post #709 of 2849
Puck, would love to see a pic of your screen up. the floating idea is very cool! I might borrow that if not a tm!
Did you have nice clean edges from the cuts that didn't need to hide? Did you cut it or have it done? If you did it, did you just use a file to smooth the edge or was it ok as it was?
Instead of a defined back area, I was thinking of defining with trim, then wrap the frame with rope light so it splashes out from behind on to the velvet. Would that work?
post #710 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by davedeal View Post

Do you have a pic or part # for the hanger you used? Sounds interesting.



I used one of these to hang a heavy backlit poster frame (link). Works great. Basically a metal french cleat.

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product...wall%20bracket
post #711 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Clarence that is awesome.
post #712 of 2849
what is the biggest screen size i can get out of a Wilsonart DW 5x10 to accomodate a 16:9? (h27 optoma) what size trim is good? 1x3's? what is a good way to mount the DW to a frame to hang with a french cleat or the picture hanging system? (thanks clarence!)

thanks in advance for any info. this is my first projector and DIY screen.
(thanks to the forum)

as soon as i finish this project i will post pics! thanks everyone for all the info!
post #713 of 2849
Thread Starter 
The biggest screen from a single sheet would be 60x107 for a 122inch diagonal screen. You would need a 5x10 sheet for that.

There are some good threads in borders, as well as some posts in here. As far as mounting, I like what Clarence just posted... it even comes with a built in level.
post #714 of 2849
I think I read of a couple people who were considering doing what I would like to do: Make a laminate screen with solid border/back that is attached to the ceiling with hinges and can be folded up onto the ceiling and held in place out of the way when not in use.

I am not aware of what hardware might help. Obviously I could find some hinges and then use some kind of hook or clamp to hold it against the roof, but I'd like to find a solution that doesn't require me using a step ladder to reach the 10' ceiling and then "catching" the screen as it swings down into place. In my mind the most important thing is something to slow it down as it swings from the ceiling to a vertical position so it doesn't stress the hinges, or potentially smack some unsuspecting person below in the face :-)

Has anyone attempted this or thought about possible solutions?
post #715 of 2849
Thread Starter 
Someone in the DIY forum did exactly what you are talking about, but I can't remember what thread that was in.
post #716 of 2849
I used the MDF baseboard, but went with the 3" variety. Since my frame "floats" over the DW screen, I don't have to worry about the weight and bending at all. Part of the reason I went this way... as the baseboard tapers down to about 7/16" where it meets the frame. The result is that with my 14' throw, I don't have issues with the boarder and shadowing on my screen.
post #717 of 2849
I think I will make a box frame smaller than the outer dimensions of the DW and about 3" thick. Then attach with something like liquid nails (let me know gang). This will make it borderless and out from the wall. I will treat the wall with a black velvet behind the DW letting it float in front, I might wrap a rope light around the frame and still behind the DW for effect. I will use trim to box frame the velvet on the wall. I think that is alot like what puck did, and a very cool idea IMHO.

I have been speaker shopping and this has the added benefit of giving more space left and right of the screen since there is no border trim attached! Givng another 6-8"!
post #718 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by stubeeef View Post

I think I will make a box frame smaller than the outer dimensions of the DW and about 3" thick. Then attach with something like liquid nails (let me know gang). This will make it borderless and out from the wall. I will treat the wall with a black velvet behind the DW letting it float in front, I might wrap a rope light around the frame and still behind the DW for effect. I will use trim to box frame the velvet on the wall. I think that is alot like what puck did, and a very cool idea IMHO.

I have been speaker shopping and this has the added benefit of giving more space left and right of the screen since there is no border trim attached! Givng another 6-8"!

Stubeeef
I also like the floating look to the screen and think the lights are very cool even if you only use them when not projecting. The black behind the screen is a good idea also that's what I did in a way.

The only suggestion I would make would be instead of a straight back box, I would build a thin frame around the front and then step back the box maybe 4 inches all the way around. That way the face would look like it was really floating, plus you would have a place to tuck the rope lights out of sight and get a back bounce from the lights. Just something to think about when you get it done post some pictures.

Others may have suggestions if you will need any bracing midway in your frame or is the laminate stiff enough to not wrinkle.

Good luck.
post #719 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by c_dike View Post

I think I read of a couple people who were considering doing what I would like to do: Make a laminate screen with solid border/back that is attached to the ceiling with hinges and can be folded up onto the ceiling and held in place out of the way when not in use.

I am not aware of what hardware might help. Obviously I could find some hinges and then use some kind of hook or clamp to hold it against the roof, but I'd like to find a solution that doesn't require me using a step ladder to reach the 10' ceiling and then "catching" the screen as it swings down into place. In my mind the most important thing is something to slow it down as it swings from the ceiling to a vertical position so it doesn't stress the hinges, or potentially smack some unsuspecting person below in the face :-)

Has anyone attempted this or thought about possible solutions?

C_dike

The other problem with a hinge down screen is will you want the top of your screen so high up? If not then the panel that swings down will be much longer.

I have thought about this a few times and it only seemed like it would work good in a location like a basement with lower ceilings or maybe where someone had a porch where they would do some outside projecting during the summer.
post #720 of 2849
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonelong View Post

My Parkland is backed by durotherm, but it is not painted on the back. I pained my leftover 11" of Parkland black on the back and hung it over my screen. No discernable difference at all IMO. Wife agreed.

Should I have painted it something besides black?

GL

No any color will do.

If yours had a backing or was against the wall that eliminates pretty much all of the translucency.

I have my screen hanging from the ceiling six feet away from the wall so the translucency of the Parkland was an issue despite my 3000 lumens projector.

John
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