AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Focal - JM Lab Owner's Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Focal - JM Lab Owner's Thread - Page 122

post #3631 of 5759
8/28/09 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by acopeman View Post

you're probably right. i guess i'm stuck on an AVR because of price; getting a decent separates package is out of range for me right now.
i suppose i need to walk away from this for awhile and come back when the budget supports the desire.
besides, if i dont get a new fence put up in the backyard first, i'll be looking for new testicles instead of new audio gear!



i guess that sets the priorities then doesnt it

id love to give you some indignant speech about fairness but frankly i know what you mean. some battles are worth fighting. some are winnable. and some will just leave you singing a lot higher--the latter are to be avoided at all cost!
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #3632 of 5759
8/28/09 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

brands available here are yamaha, onkyo, denon, pioneer, harman, marantz, rotel, krell, parasound, tangent

the choices i like are rotel, marantz and parasound, i need hdmi inputs coz i have a bluray player, ps3 and dvd player

what do you guys think of this?
http://www.butleraudio.com/tdb5150.php

stereophile did a review on the butler--check it out online--from memore it was ok not spectacular BUT it may be a good combo with the focals--youd be the first that i had heard from though.

if it were me id probably go with the denon a1hdci prepro and parasound a51 combo. to save a few bucks i would strongly consuder the marantz prepro (particularly with the focals) with the a52. if you wanna go nuts go with a krell stack and hope it doesnt burn the house down. which blu ray do you have?
Reply
Reply
post #3633 of 5759
8/28/09 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

id love to give you some indignant speech about fairness but frankly i know what you mean. some battles are worth fighting. some are winnable. and some will just leave you singing a lot higher--the latter are to be avoided at all cost!

shes actually been quite good about the stuff i've brought home for the man-cave. i was a little surprised when only 15 months after i spent thousands she was pretty cool when i came home with the Profile brochure and said "guess what..." I got the eye roll and "...but you just got new speakers", but it was a relatively easy sell....the deal i got didn't hurt either.
and as far as fairness goes, that little metal thing with shiny stones that encircles her fourth finger buys me quite a bit of credit as far as i'm concerned.....if only i could find a way to trade that back in all my audio decisions would become much easier.
Reply
Reply
post #3634 of 5759
8/28/09 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by acopeman View Post

shes actually been quite good about the stuff i've brought home for the man-cave. i was a little surprised when only 15 months after i spent thousands she was pretty cool when i came home with the Profile brochure and said "guess what..." I got the eye roll and "...but you just got new speakers", but it was a relatively easy sell....the deal i got didn't hurt either.
and as far as fairness goes, that little metal thing with shiny stones that encircles her fourth finger buys me quite a bit of credit as far as i'm concerned.....if only i could find a way to trade that back in all my audio decisions would become much easier.

wow. i can see by reading between the lines you are ineed of a speaker upgrade I think many of use here know exactly what you mean. Probably most. the audio hobby serves to quell many underlying conflicts. It is in so many ways an escape. Something different, isolate, ours, passes the time as a moment of solitary silence and hedonism--a second of inner peace as the day draws on with outrageous stressors.

not to mention the fact that it is permanent without equivocation--nothing can by definition ever be good enough. the intense sation ends after the setup in think. then the continued mainline of more marginal but significant longlasting euphoria.

ah yes, they just came out with a NEW MODEL!! a new feature, marketed to the max invokes a mild and indisious withdrawal.

the endorphins then begin to alleviate some of the chronic suffering; eventually the foothills of the intense rush overcome the baseline dysthymia. then the climax of the century when the triger is pulled and the setup is completed. and so the cycle continues...

and its also fun!

i really enjoy this thread and how respectful people are here.
cheers
Reply
Reply
post #3635 of 5759
8/31/09 at 7:24pm
hi sir denophile, i think im going with the butler amp though its not thx rated, which pre/pro should i match it with? where do you plug the hdmis? to the amp or pre/pro?
Reply
Reply
post #3636 of 5759
9/1/09 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

hi sir denophile, i think im going with the butler amp though its not thx rated, which pre/pro should i match it with? where do you plug the hdmis? to the amp or pre/pro?

i wouldnt worry about thx so much. for the prepro--how much you wanna spend? dont know the prices are where you are but i would recommend reading the threads on the marantz, rotel, and denon--youll fet an idea of the features, ups and downs of each. if it were me and money were no object i would get the denon myself (of the 3).

the hdmi goes from the blu ray player or dvd or cable/sat box for sitching and processing and then a separate cable takes the output into the tv--since you are asking the question im a little concerned that the complexity of some of these prepros could be overwhelming and the denon is perhaps the most complicated of all of them. again, the threads may help you familiarize yourself with the features and setup issues.

can you audition any of these and play with them a little?
Reply
Reply
post #3637 of 5759
9/1/09 at 6:12pm
im just worried that the butler 5150 is a little old school? or not? coz you use analog RCA interconnect cable to connect it to the pre/pro, what id like to know is where do you connect all the devices, is it to the amp or pre/pro?
Reply
Reply
post #3638 of 5759
9/1/09 at 6:53pm
The fact that the impedance remains above 10 ohms for much of the treble means that the 1037 Be will tend to sound shelved-up in the highs with tube amplification.- i guess i cant pair my speakers with the butler 5150 now, back to the drawing board
Reply
Reply
post #3639 of 5759
9/2/09 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

The fact that the impedance remains above 10 ohms for much of the treble means that the 1037 Be will tend to sound shelved-up in the highs with tube amplification.- i guess i cant pair my speakers with the butler 5150 now, back to the drawing board

not sure i follow--the be tweeter is very revealing and requires significant break in. if it remains above 10 ohms i dont see how that means the treble is shelved up but maybe im missing something. i would look more at an frequency response curve with a flat amplifier to determine how you should anticipate them sounding--if the butler is flat then it should sound the same--at least that is my understanding. having heard the 1037s i have not found them to be any more bright than the 1027--acoustic treatments help too.

the analog connections are on all amps--no worries there--the prepro will do all the complicated electronic heavy lifting--all the sources will connect to that.
cheers
Reply
Reply
post #3640 of 5759
9/2/09 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

not sure i follow--the be tweeter is very revealing and requires significant break in. if it remains above 10 ohms i dont see how that means the treble is shelved up but maybe im missing something. i would look more at an frequency response curve with a flat amplifier to determine how you should anticipate them sounding--if the butler is flat then it should sound the same--at least that is my understanding. having heard the 1037s i have not found them to be any more bright than the 1027--acoustic treatments help too.

the analog connections are on all amps--no worries there--the prepro will do all the complicated electronic heavy lifting--all the sources will connect to that.
cheers

He may be right. The frequency response of some / most tube amps will track the impedance curve of the speakers they are attached to. Not sure about the butler because it isn't a typical tube amp.

For instance, here is a quote from Stereophile on the measurements of a VTL tube amp:

Quote:


The output impedance was a fairly high 2.1 ohms across the audioband in Tetrode mode, a lower 1.55 ohms in Triode mode. As a result, there will be a moderately high modification of the amplifier's frequency response by the manner in which the partnering loudspeaker's impedance changes with frequency.

cosanostra - ask Bulter what the output impedance of the amp is that you want. If it is below .5 Ohm you won't be limited to speakers with flat impedance curves.
Reply
Reply
post #3641 of 5759
9/2/09 at 7:39pm
sir denophile and sir hifisponge- this is what butler told me

The increase in impedance to 10 ohms will actually allow the amp to open up MORE, the exact opposite of what they say.
The Butler technology has NO negative feedback and has an abundance of headroom. There will be NO shelving effect what so ever. The sound will be superlatively open and defined, much better than even higher powered conventional amps. You should realize that the Butlers typically produce over 200 watts per channel under normal listening conditions. Our power ratings are MINIMUM continuous power output with ALL channels driven.
Speaker manufacturers should not attempt to advise customers on amplifiers, especially one as unique as mine is! J
Best wishes,
BK Butler
Reply
Reply
post #3642 of 5759
9/2/09 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

sir denophile and sir hifisponge- this is what butler told me

The increase in impedance to 10 ohms will actually allow the amp to open up MORE, the exact opposite of what they say.
The Butler technology has NO negative feedback and has an abundance of headroom. There will be NO shelving effect what so ever. The sound will be superlatively open and defined, much better than even higher powered conventional amps. You should realize that the Butlers typically produce over 200 watts per channel under normal listening conditions. Our power ratings are MINIMUM continuous power output with ALL channels driven.
Speaker manufacturers should not attempt to advise customers on amplifiers, especially one as unique as mine is! J
Best wishes,
BK Butler

That's wonderfull and all, and thank him for the glowing description of his amp's capabilities, but get the straight answer on the output impedance. This is what is responsible for how linear the frequency response of the amp is when presented a fluctuating speaker load.
Reply
Reply
post #3643 of 5759
9/2/09 at 8:42pm
sir hifisponge- i asked him and this is what he said



Dear Giovan,
(First of all, I LOVE your email address!)
I’m very interested in why you are asking me this. Do you know if this spec can possibly relate to how my amplifier actually sounds? Any audio engineer knows that for a open-ended tube amp this spec is almost meaningless due to the interaction of speaker cables, connection resistances and real-world speaker impedance.

I will tell you that the output impedance is LOW (about 10 times lower than conventional tube amps) but not as low as solid state amps that simply sound awful.

The current trend in solid state amplifiers with Ultra Low output impedance is one of the main reasons they all SOUND BAD!! I wonder if someone is tutoring you to ask me such a question?

In other words, if my amp’s output impedance is 1/100 ohm and a typical solid state (piece of garbage) has 1/1,000,000 ohm, which will sound best?? This spec will NOT tell you. J ONLY your ears will!! J
Sincerely,
BK

PS
I’d really not concern yourself with trying to make a decision based upon meaningless specs. The reason I’m successful in this field is that I’ve created a completely unique product. It is really incomparable to typical amplifiers. That’s why it has a strong US Patent covering the revolutionary thermionic tube technology. There is simply no comparison to it as far as sound quality. If you love music (which is my absolute passion) and also love the dynamics of lifelike dynamics and sound quality in the cinema (which NO public movie theaters have these days due to the poor quality of their commercial Solid State junk amps), you will simply LOVE the 5150. I’m SURE of it. That’s why many high quality speaker companies use my amplifiers in their test labs for reference (Thiel, Escalante, etc.). The president of one of the most advanced and esoteric (www.pipedreams.com) is visiting me here in Denver on Friday and has purchased 4 TDB2250s and a set of MONAD amplifiers. Please download and read his white paper. There is NOBODY as critical as Craig Oxford at Pipe Dreams, and he will ONLY use Butler Amplifiers!
Reply
Reply
post #3644 of 5759
9/2/09 at 9:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

sir hifisponge- i asked him and this is what he said



Dear Giovan,
(First of all, I LOVE your email address!)
I'm very interested in why you are asking me this. Do you know if this spec can possibly relate to how my amplifier actually sounds? Any audio engineer knows that for a open-ended tube amp this spec is almost meaningless due to the interaction of speaker cables, connection resistances and real-world speaker impedance.

I will tell you that the output impedance is LOW (about 10 times lower than conventional tube amps) but not as low as solid state amps that simply sound awful.

The current trend in solid state amplifiers with Ultra Low output impedance is one of the main reasons they all SOUND BAD!! I wonder if someone is tutoring you to ask me such a question?

In other words, if my amp's output impedance is 1/100 ohm and a typical solid state (piece of garbage) has 1/1,000,000 ohm, which will sound best?? This spec will NOT tell you. J ONLY your ears will!! J
Sincerely,
BK

PS
I'd really not concern yourself with trying to make a decision based upon meaningless specs. The reason I'm successful in this field is that I've created a completely unique product. It is really incomparable to typical amplifiers. That's why it has a strong US Patent covering the revolutionary thermionic tube technology. There is simply no comparison to it as far as sound quality. If you love music (which is my absolute passion) and also love the dynamics of lifelike dynamics and sound quality in the cinema (which NO public movie theaters have these days due to the poor quality of their commercial Solid State junk amps), you will simply LOVE the 5150. I'm SURE of it. That's why many high quality speaker companies use my amplifiers in their test labs for reference (Thiel, Escalante, etc.). The president of one of the most advanced and esoteric (www.pipedreams.com) is visiting me here in Denver on Friday and has purchased 4 TDB2250s and a set of MONAD amplifiers. Please download and read his white paper. There is NOBODY as critical as Craig Oxford at Pipe Dreams, and he will ONLY use Butler Amplifiers!

Man that guy is a riot. I've never seen someone take such offense at a simple question. If he is being honest, then his "10 times lower than conventional tube amps" should put the output impedance at .2 to .3 Ohms, which means you don't have to worry about the frequency response changing with the load presented by the speaker. At this point it seems your best option is to take advantage of Butler's 10 day evaluation period, if that is available in your country.
Reply
Reply
post #3645 of 5759
9/2/09 at 9:37pm
problem is its not available in our country, even his amp isnt available here, so he'll bring it here himself =) hhmm.,.,.,
Reply
Reply
post #3646 of 5759
9/2/09 at 9:39pm
hahaha funny about the riot thing, he's actually my friend's friend, so.,.,. =)
Reply
Reply
post #3647 of 5759
9/2/09 at 9:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

problem is its not available in our country, even his amp isnt available here, so he'll bring it here himself =) hhmm.,.,.,

Well, then I guess it is time to the third round with him.

Tell him that it is common knowledge that if an amp has high output impedance that the frequency response of the amp will be affected by the fluctuations in the impedance of the speaker to which it is mated.

Then show him this frequency response graph of a VTL amp that has an output impedance of 2 Ohms:

http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/108vtl/index5.html

Tell him that you respect his expertise in the field, but that since this amp will be a special order for you that is not returnable, you want to make sure that the output impedance is low enough that the frequency response of the amp won't be affected by the varying impedance of the speaker. It does not have to be the lowest, but below .3 Ohms would be sufficient.

Good luck!
Reply
Reply
post #3648 of 5759
9/2/09 at 9:54pm
sir hifisponge you're a big help =) thanks
Reply
Reply
post #3649 of 5759
9/2/09 at 10:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

sir hifisponge you're a big help =) thanks

Good luck on getting your answer from him, he is one tough cookie.
Reply
Reply
post #3650 of 5759
9/2/09 at 10:08pm
Thread Starter 
The "official" launch is supposed to be at CEDIA, but for everyone interested, the Electra 1000 Be2 line is now up on the Focal website.

www.focal-fr.com

New finishes look interesting. I think the addition of the rear port is a step in the right direction. Very interested in hearing the newly-designed tweeter.

I might just have to try a pair...or 2.
Reply
Reply
post #3651 of 5759
9/2/09 at 10:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

The "official" launch is supposed to be at CEDIA, but for everyone interested, the Electra 1000 Be2 line is now up on the Focal website.

www.focal-fr.com

New finishes look interesting. I think the addition of the rear port is a step in the right direction. Very interested in hearing the newly-designed tweeter.

I might just have to try a pair...or 2.

I see that they raised the tweeter cross-over by 200Hz. I wonder if this will take the edge off the upper midrange that I heard in the 1037's?

What else did they do to the tweeter?

I was hoping for at least a slight revision to the cabinet design. It's still one of the best looking speakers available, but I'd like to see them outdo themselves.
Reply
Reply
post #3652 of 5759
9/2/09 at 10:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

The "official" launch is supposed to be at CEDIA, but for everyone interested, the Electra 1000 Be2 line is now up on the Focal website.

www.focal-fr.com

New finishes look interesting. I think the addition of the rear port is a step in the right direction. Very interested in hearing the newly-designed tweeter.

I might just have to try a pair...or 2.

what about the 1027BE, are there gonna be more new models?
Reply
Reply
post #3653 of 5759
9/2/09 at 10:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

what about the 1027BE, are there gonna be more new models?

The whole line-up is new. The 1027 is being replaced with the 1028. Just check out the web site.
Reply
Reply
post #3654 of 5759
9/2/09 at 10:34pm
Thread Starter 
I would imagine they beefed up the tweeter's motor structure to increase the power handling and thereby allowed them to lower the crossover point.

In addition they might have made some additional tweaks to the crossover network and various other "voicing" changes. I do like the addition of the rear port. Though the bottom port is somewhat more predictable, I think the rear port is going make the speaker more powerful in many room situations.

Im excited to hear if these new speakers are a refinement on some already good technology.

The finishes look interesting. Kind of hard to tell from the website if those are truly representative of how they look in person. Though I think the best looking are still that Macassar finish.
Reply
Reply
post #3655 of 5759
9/2/09 at 10:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

I would imagine they beefed up the tweeter's motor structure to increase the power handling and thereby allowed them to lower the crossover point.

They actually raised the crossover point, which is a good move in my opinion. This trend in recent years to go as low as you can I think stresses out even the best tweets.



Quote:


The finishes look interesting. Kind of hard to tell from the website if those are truly representative of how they look in person. Though I think the best looking are still that Macassar finish.

I humbly agree.
Reply
Reply
post #3656 of 5759
9/2/09 at 10:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

They actually raised the crossover point, which is a good move in my opinion. This trend in recent years to go as low as you can I think stresses out even the best tweets.

Interesting. On my paperwork it says that the crossover point was lowered to 2khz....

Well regardless it will be interesting to see what these things can do.
Reply
Reply
post #3657 of 5759
9/2/09 at 11:01pm
i cant see the new lines on their website whats wrong?
Reply
Reply
post #3658 of 5759
9/2/09 at 11:02pm
sir hifisponge- this is what butler said




Yes, Giovani,
The actual output impedance of the 5150 is just below .2 ohms so this should make you feel better.
I never designed this amp to have any compromise.
My tube technology is an order of magnitude (10X lower impedance than traditional tube amps).
I am very sure you will be happy with it in EVERY way!
Best wishes,
BK
Reply
Reply
post #3659 of 5759
9/2/09 at 11:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

sir hifisponge- this is what butler said




Yes, Giovani,
The actual output impedance of the 5150 is just below .2 ohms so this should make you feel better.
I never designed this amp to have any compromise.
My tube technology is an order of magnitude (10X lower impedance than traditional tube amps).
I am very sure you will be happy with it in EVERY way!
Best wishes,
BK

Whoo hoo! You did it, you broke through his impenetrable wall of defenses. So there ya go, no worries about pairing up the Focal's with the Butler amp now. I bet you're relieved.
Reply
Reply
post #3660 of 5759
9/2/09 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosanostra View Post

i cant see the new lines on their website whats wrong?

Not sure why you can't see it, but here's the brochure to look over.

http://www.focal-fr.com/catalogue-do...files/2443.pdf
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Focal - JM Lab Owner's Thread