Focal - JM Lab Owner's Thread - Page 185

If someone wants to argue against both accepted science and the manufacturers stated position on the topic, the burden of proof is on them.

Subjective evaluations based on audio memory have been proven unreliable in any number of controlled studies and as such, don't make a compelling case. Frankly, this would be simple to prove - take measurements every 10 hours upon setting up your speakers. If there is audible break in going on, it would be easy to identify.

Ok, I have to comment because this is just too much fun
But there is a fact...
The fact is: he feels the speakers require 500 hours or so break in time.

He never said the speaker knows the difference.
FYI: in my system, my 2ch source is a lot better than my multichannel source. Obviously the speaker has no thought process therefore it would be unable to determine if there was a different signal... I however am able to tell the difference...

For the record, I could play a CD or 2CH SACD through my multichannel source and I would think it sounds bad whereas watching a movie on that same source would sound good IMO.


Indeed.

BTW, right / wrong / indifferent - I thought my 1027S sounded great but a little bright out of the box. Around 20 hours I thought they sounded very dull with no highs and no lows compared to when I first got them. Around 70 hours I thought they sounded perfect (better than out of the box as it was no longer bright and better than at 20 hours since it was no longer dull)...
Were the speakers settling into the floor? Were the speakers breaking in? Was it all in my head? The answer doesn't matter to me... what matters to me is I like the sound of my system.

Anyway, everyone enjoy their systems. If you think it needs break in time, then take the time to break it in. If you think it doesn't need break-in time, then enjoy them as soon as you get it home. Do whatever makes you happy, not what makes your online buddy happy.

Later,
Mike

He has an opinion, not a fact.

No issue with anyone enjoying their system, but when people start stating opinion as fact without support, it's going to get called out on AVS.

As for speaker break in, isn't it amazing that owners believe break in ends at exactly the point where the speakers sound the best? How do they know when to stop? As you said earlier (I think it was you), it has a lot more to do with listener becoming used to the speakers than break in.

It's not unique to audio. All subjective evaluations based on memory are unreliable, so what.

You are insisting on proof for something where proof is not applicable. "Prove you remembered it like that!"

If you go to an online guitar forum, there will be all sorts of comments about how this sounds better than that, this guitar's tone so deep, or it really opened up after a month or so, nothing like an antique telecaster, etc, etc. I dare you to add a comment like you did here "I'm glad you value your over active imagination over facts and science. Other than your biased personal observations, have any measurements or even theory to support your claims"

Let's see how long you last in the group! Or maybe go to a wine enthusiasts meeting and ask them if they've done any chemical tests to prove there's more oak taste and a scent of vanilla in this one.

So Bfreedma, the word I'm looking for is maybe not rude, but shall we say a lack of decorum?

These kinds of comments are not in the spirit of the hobby or "fellowship" of hobbyists. It's just "Hey look at me, I'm a scientist! Neener neener!"

Proof is absolutely attainable. Simply measure the speakers frequently when first set up and any break in will be readily apparent.

Last time I checked, guitars and wine weren't the same as speakers, so whatever point your trying to make isn't applicable. As for being "rude" look at the thread again and see how this developed.

BTW, the "S" in AVS is "Science".

Sorry Bill F., but I'm stealing your content:

Please share your measurements that prove your speakers never changed during break in.

I never said speakers don't change after break in - reread the thread and try again. If you want to support the claim that Be tweeters take over 500 hours to break in, the burden of proof is on you given that the manufacturer states that break in for the speakers in question is 20 hours.

Bfeedma, you do not understand the concept of experiences, they are not "claims" that somehow need proving.

We're discussing science and physics here, not personal experience. Break in isn't variable based on the individual listener - it either happening past a certain point or it's not.

You can tell me that 1+1=3 based on experiences - doesn't make it accurate.

The fact that he has an opinion was what I was saying.

Apologies. I missed that.

With regards to break-in, is it the speaker or the listener? it doesn't matter, the listener experience is the same. The speakers break-in and sound better for one or the other or both reasons. In the case of listener's brain adjusting to the sound, they know when to stop when they've acclimated to them and no further brain processing is needed.

But of course you can over time, come to find things in your system you don't like, that you didn't notice before, more experiences!

I can't believe I am posting on this subject but I will anyway . I have a person whom I have know for years at Focal. I told him there was a talk about about break in and how long it takes. He came back with a few replies. Against my better judgement , here it goes:
I asked how long a Be driver takes to break in. He said

"Run-in is faster in tweeters than mids and bass drivers. The crossovers the drivers connect too also plays a part in the time before final sound is arrived at. Be driver without a cross-over connected is probably around 20 hours"

Then I asked, yes, but what if is in a speaker with a crossover. He answered:
If you're considering the loudspeaker as a whole, the final sound will only happen after the slowest component in the chain finishes that process
If you're isolating a single tweeter driver without a crossover attached, then 20
If you talking about a tweeter with a crossover attached, then it's longer since the components in the crossover take longer than the surround and spider in the tweeter takes - 100 hours
If you're considering a 2-way design with tweeter, single mid/bass driver and crossover then perhaps 150
If you're considering a full-on three or four way design with an integrated subwoofer driver (Read - high-mass, very stiff surround, very stiff spider, with crossover, then as many as 500 hours.


Sorry to sound so variable, but it depends on the speaker, the complexity of the crossover and the composition of the drivers.
It's not a real cut and dry answer. The general rule is the more exacting the design the longer to final break-in. Low cost simple designs can break in rather quickly - 20 hours for the entire speaker.
In a real way - both those forum participants are correct.
Hope this helps"

So take that for what it's worth. That is directly from someone at Focal. Look at the bolded portions. It seems to speak to what some people are saying here.

Thanks Mike. While I'd like to hear more about what's breaking in in the crossovers, I'll have to wait to get a new pair of speakers to take measurements to see where the audible changes are completed.

My read on this is that the longest the tweeter would take to break in is 100 hours, with mids and woofers taking longer. I'm strongly suspect based on conversations with focal that the 500 hours refers to the Grande Utopia as its the only model in aware of with an integrated sub. Believable given the construction of that monster and the massive motor and surround on the sub.

Was that your understanding of it based on the conversation?

Thanks Mike. Appreciate it!

I do hope the Focal measures whatever the info they're relaying though. Or else they could get "called out on AVS" and we all know it's a terrible punishment. They certainly don't want that. LOL

Awesome! They don't say "the break-in is 20 hours"!
Edited by kzhtoo - 1/31/13 at 7:18pm

Do you even know what 1028Be design is?


Oh please. I beg of you!

I think you're misreading what Mike posted. The tweeter on any Focal speaker appears to have a maximum break in time of 100 hours. Other components of the 1028 could take longer according to Focal.

If you stopped claiming victory long enough to actually comprehend the post from Mike, you would realize you are incorrect. Unless you have the only 1028Be's ever made with an integrated subwoofer being utilized as a tweeter Or even an integrated subwoofer - you do realize your 1028s don't have an integrated subwoofer, don't you?

Your claim was that your tweeter was still breaking in after more than 500 hours. The post from Mike relaying Focal's position on this clearly opposes that view.

""Run-in is faster in tweeters than mids and bass drivers. The crossovers the drivers connect too also plays a part in the time before final sound is arrived at. Be driver without a cross-over connected is probably around 20 hours""

Well, I am glad my post didn't cause too much trouble . Bfreedma, the Grand Utopia EM uses an Electromagnetic motor for the 16in "woofer". They don't label it a sub woofer any more. They have information on their website about. Just to accurate, there is one other model that uses the EM technology and that is the Stella Utopia. That has a 13in Electromagnetic "woofer".
Trust me, Focal measures everything. They make all of their own drivers and crossovers and they even have a machine shop that makes the tools that they use to make their speakers. I think only the extremely low stuff like the Sib and Cub combo and maybe something else is assembled outside of France but it's still all Focal designed. If anybody measures and documents the driver crossover relationship, it's Focal. Anyway, if here anything else that may be interesting, I will post it.

Thanks Mike - given the terminology question on the Utopia woofers, what model would the subwoofer reference from your original post refer to?

They were referred to subwoofers in the past - could that comment be a legacy reference to the last generation of Utopia's?

One of the reasons I prefer Focal is the in house development of their components. I'd just like to get confirmation of my interpretation of your post in regards to the 1028be tweeter specifically and confirm the 100 max break in. I've got the specific question out to one of the Focal engineers I've been in contact with before and will post the response when it arrives.

FYI: With few exceptions such as pneumatic speakers and electrostatic speakers, the majority of speakers are "electromagnetic motors"... Perhaps the key here is the term "Woofer" rather than "Sub-Woofer" which (as far as I am aware) refers to the frequency bandwidth the speaker accurately produces.

Superposer
Well, they do have a true Sub Woofer that also uses the EM technology. in the previous Be series, The Grand Utopia's Be 16in driver I think was called a Sub Woofer but they simply call it a woofer on their site now. The EM "woofer" is powered by its own power supply that allows you to fine tune how much Tesla force is put out. Also, see the following link.
http://www.grande-utopia-em.com/en/technologies/em.php

bfreedman
As far as the cross over and how it potential breaks in, here is the reply I got. Remember, you asked for this

Understandably odd concept to wrap your head around.
When you pass an electrical signal (Current) through any conductive materials (Usually metals), electrons pass the energy from one metallic crystal to the next one. Each crystal has a "Wall" that defines the physical size, shape of the crystal. These walls need to be "Climbed over" (Not really - more like passed through), or in automotive terms, these "Walls" are like toll booths on an interstate - you need to slow down, pass through the boot area, and then accelerate again.

Remember - we want theoretical unlimited instantaneous speed from the moment we decode the musical signal from our source, to the moment we deliver the amplified signal via the amplifier, and instantaneous movement of the drivers (Why we place so much importance on low mass in driver technology - faster (Shorter time) acceleration (Transference) of energy to your ears, which you interpret as music.

ANYTHING that slows this time based energy decoding / transfer / amplification / driver movement down will be "Heard" as a loss of information, or a mixing together of information that was discrete and separate from other moments of energy that we saved (Recorded for later playback).

So if you've followed me so far; when these energy waves travel from crystal wall to crystal wall bombarding the metal crystals that make up solder , PCB boards, resistors, capacitors, speaker wire, interconnect cable (AND Digital packet transfer, even though we're sending binary numbers, NOT analog wave patterns - we call these slowdowns in movement "Jitter Error"), some of these walls end up have "Channels" (Weaker spots electrons can travel through quicker than other stronger places along that same boundary wall) that let energy waves (Actually NOT waves at all - energy being passed like a fire fighters bucket chain with people passing buckets of energy from one person to the next, rather than one person walking the length of the line (Cable)) travel with less resistance. Less resistance, faster travel, less time based errors, less mixing up of older and newer energy information that we hear as loss of details, sound stage, etc. Think of our toll road analogy - each crystal boundary is like the toll - cars with electronic dashboard passes can drive through the toll and NOT stop; cars that need to take a paper toll card have to come to a stop and take the ticket - that car arrives at their destination after the car that had the electronic dashboard pass.

So - with that concept understood, over time, after millions of energy waves bombard each of these metal boundary crystals, a path of lower resistance (Easier, faster passing) is formed. Speed increases, music opens up, low level detail is better heard/felt and our music systems sound more "Real". Turn a system off, leave it for a few months and the process has to start over again since metal crystals are NEVER at full rest. They shift and contract even though they look "Hard" to us, they are fluid to some tiny degree.

So there you go .

Thanks Mike.

I understand the concepts in discussion. The question that isn't answered and is at the crux of this entire debate is when do these changes cease to be audible.

It is a bit interesting to me that the theories being discussed only apply to audio electronics and not implementations of other electronics. For example, we never discuss the need to break in a computer to achieve proper processing speeds or results.

The answer to the first part is probably, it depends. It would probably depend on the number of drivers and the complexity of the crossover integration. I would probably say that all systems, computer, audio, automotive etc... Have some sort of break in period. But because of we(humans) are designed, when it comes to audio, it is easier for us to detect those kind of changes as opposed to a perceived speed increase in a computer. We notice the sound difference because we are well tuned, so to speak to notice differences in sound.
Edited by MIkeDuke - 2/1/13 at 7:04am

Mike, I can't make a qualified comment on the other electronics, but I can say with absolute certainty that this is not an issue with computers.

That's cool. I was just trying . I knew I was going on a ledge here but I said, what the hell. It just goes to show how sometimes we want to explain things that we experience yet it does not translate into other fields. I can give you a real personal example that happened to me when I was younger that some people would believe is true and other would say that I made it up. But it would take way to long and I don't want to derail this thread . Anyway, regardless of what kind of break in may take place, I freakin love my 1027's. They always impress me when I watch a movie and sound fantastic for music.

Mike - no problem and again, I appreciate your input on this.

This discussion aside, as you know, I'm a huge fan and owner of Focal. This kerfluffel has nothing to do with the quality of the product.

This is getting ridiculous. You have been claiming I said a lot of things that I didn't say and interpret most things in a twisted way that pleases you. Seriously, I don't know if you aren't well and whatnot, but the back and forth has been long enough and I really don't see the point to continue to argue against the imaginary voices in your head.

I asked Ryan T. about his 1028Be break-in experience as I myself also just bought a pair new and breaking them in at 360 hr. I know they aren't fully broken in at 360 hr because I had 1008Be before and know them well (tweeter/midrange are the same for 1008Be and 1028Be, but...of course I don't expect you to know that).

And I said "someone once told me Focal Be tweeter break-in time is >500hr". It could only mean...OK, this is what I was told, so let's see what happens with my pair (and Ryan T.'s if he wishes to share his experience). Or...COULD IT? Had I known this would trigger the AVS police in you and the whole shenanigan that could only come from your imaginary universe, I would have PM'ed Ryan T.

If you hell bent on "I CLAIM" the break-in is 500hr, so be it. Different strokes for different folks. Whatever works for you. But from where I sit with my 1028Be (which are now at 400hr) and the info I got from Mike's Focal guy (1028Be design is 3-way btw, Mike's Focal info says it's 150hr for 2-way), well...it's awfully a lot more than 100hr.

Oh..I do hope you get your break-in measurement soon enough (you do remember you said that right?). And of course, I fully expect this post to be twisted in some way, again.

For the third and last time, Mike's Focal info does not suggest that the tweeter in a three way, four way, or million way speaker takes any longer than 100 hours. The higher figures describe Focal's break in estimates of the mids/woofers/subwoofers. NOT THE TWEETER.

As for your 500 hour claim, in this very post, you claim your tweeters aren't broken in after 400 hours. This is in direct conflict with the Focal information. You have no supporting evidence other than what "your ears tell you" which has been proven to be an utterly useless way to assess audio information due to the limits all humans have regarding audio memory.

BTW, how are the tweeters in the 1008 and 1028 the same, given that the 1008 has a 1" tweeter and the 1028 has a 1.25" tweeter, which can be confirmed at Focal's web site The crossover between the tweeter and the mid is at 2500hz in the 1008 and the crossover on the 1028 is at 2200hz Yeah, you really know the product line well and have credibility....

Regardless, you have your unicorns and I have science, physics, and Focal engineers. Everyone can make their own decisions from there.
Edited by bfreedma - 2/1/13 at 1:43pm